Replacing powerfists?

[Demoulius]

Hello guys,

 

I have been going over my model collection abit, doing some small repair work, patching up paint etc. Something that struck me was that the majority of my sargeants are packing powerfists.... (both of my assault squads, 2 of my tactical sargeants and a few veteran models...) whilst the "normal" power weapons are seriously in the minority... Of the ones I have all aside 2 or so are poweraxes... Im thinking of swapping a few over to powerswords or the like. The reason I had so many to begin with was to counter monstrous creatures and walkers. Now that normal marines are able to hit them reliably with grenades I feel the need for the fist has gone down a notch. That leaves me with the question with what do I replace them with though? Thats the part where I hope you guys can help me make up my mind abit :)

 

Some thoughts on the weapons as I see them.

-Powerswords, own strength and AP3. Mediocre statline (as nothing changes) but the AP3 is good.

-Powermauls, +2S and AP4. Concussive can help against MC's or characters. Somewhat useless against MEQ however, as I see it. You wound more often but most of the times they pass their armour saves...

-Powerlance/spear, hit at +1S and AP3 on the charge. Own strength after charge and only AP4. Good for units that heavily rely on the charge but dont need the punch after that. Im thinking of a bikesquad here. On the charge they do some kills and then just tarpit. If you get FnP and FC in there from a priest you got S6 AP3 on the charge. Not bad... T5 and FnP is also a killer combo together... Hmmm :devil:

-Poweraxe, hit at I1. +1S and AP2 are insanely good. Specialy on the charge hitting on S6 is a killer statline to have! Really a risk in challenges though (same as a powerfist, but with less strength) in that you have to survive an opponents retaliation first...

 

So summarizing the weapons im still not sure... Powersword seems the most generic and safe bet when you dont want to tool. The poweraxe is nice since alot of people are taking 2+ save HQ's now. Those generally have a higher initiative then the sargeants anyway so no speed is (effectivly) lost there. On the flip side you get more strength and always ignore their (armor) save! Powerspear seems like a huge gamble which could pay off if your lucky. Hitting at S6 and AP without losing your initiative is nothing to sniff at ^_^ Powermaul.... I dont know. Against T6 MC's? Really having a hard time finding a place for these things :huh:

 

Something else I havent considered yet now that I think about it... Lightning claw. Same price as powerweapon. AP3 and reroll to wound. Tactical sargeants arent so much phased by the "specialist weapon" rule if you give them a bolter/combi-bolter/stormbolter in the other hand :P Another thing that I could do is just keep the powerfists... They have served me very well tbh... Only rarely do they die before they get to hit. Sometimes theyre shot before they reach combat ;)

 

Im thinking the following:

 

-Assault marine sargeants: Swap out one of the assault sargeants' weapon and give it a go. Im thinking powersword and give him a meltabomb for anti MC/walker ability. Only saves 5 points but I dont risk losing the sargeant before he gets to hit and against MEQ my sargeants generally score me the most kills.... Powersword still allows me to that (no loss of initiative) and while im not gaining any strength bonuses (aside from FnP) the hitting at initiative part is key here... And the "no armour saves" part :blush:

-Tactical sargeants: seeing as my tactical squads are generally shooting more then they are fighting in combat im thinking il give (storm)bolter+lightning claw a go. Adds close combat punch for not to great a price. No loss of attack from the claw as the other weapon is a 2 handed ranged weapon. Otherwise poweraxe is the name of the game I think. Tactical squads generally arent assaulting themselves and when they are in combat, they are in trouble. I think its best to give him the weapon that will the most harm (other then PF)

-Bike squad (still putting the squad together) try a powerspear. The squad I want to use has a tooled up Captain and priest added to it. Other then the priest the captain and sargeant are geared for combat. If I run into something I dont want my captain to fight (tooled up Necron lord with mindscarabs comes to mind...) I can shove the sargeant forwards whilst the others murder the squad they are in contact with :wub: and IF he gets to hit hes doing it at S6 and AP3, whats not to love?

 

Thoughts? Anything I missed?

[Paulochromis]

You don't seem to have factored challenges into the discussion (not explicitly, anyway).

If the squad runs without a priest or IC in the vicinity then the PF can be a liability.

Opponent challenges with high I, you may be dead before you swing if you accept.

 

There is an existing thread on --> sergeant loadouts

[Deschenus Maximus]

All my sergeants go naked now. Never a situatiin where I feel like I wasted points that way.

[DominicJ]

Powerswords or naked for RAS.

 

Fists (and axes) need some sort of challenge protection.

[knife&fork]

All my sergeants go naked now. Never a situatiin where I feel like I wasted points that way.

 

Not even a pistol or meltabomb?

[appiah4]

I've come to pick combi-bolters and Storm Bolters whenever I can. I throw in a Power Sword if it's a melee squad. I take Fists in DC and axes on honor guard.

 

My one Power Fist sergeant also packs a Combi-Meltain a Tactical Squad with a Multi-Melta and Plasmagun. They are dedicated tank hunters.

 

You can't go wrong with a PF on the biker sarge. T5, 3+, and probably a 5++; even challenges can be handled fine. You can always let your Biker Priest take on a nast I4 challenger as well.

[Demoulius]

@Paulochromis: Well challenges are part of the reason why im looking to alter their gear :lol: as having only fists can be a liability ;)

 

keeping sargeants naked is an option for a tactical/devastator squad but for an assault squad I feel they need some added bling ^_^ also my opponents have the nasty habbit of surviving normal attacks... so I need the powerweapons to make some kills :)

 

surpised so many others do do that it that way though...arent you guys feeling like your missing the "oompf" the powerweapons (of any kind) add?

[Ushtarador]

You should still pick lighting claws over power swords. I still tend to give them power axes and it seems to work out in my area, especially if people run just naked sarges :) but I would always give them at least a LC, some armor-ignoring attacks are priceless when fighting with RAS.

[Bartali]

ASM Sarge - Meltabomb

Priests, Libbys etc - Axes

 

Job done.

[Brother Kovash]

I've run into this problem myself. Thought it was cool to give me assault sergeant a thunder hammer, last two times I played he never got to smite his enemy. Even the old metal librarian in TDA that I found has a force axe, which means my IC gets hosed unless the sergeant takes the challenge. Power swords and lances seem to be the new way to go. For my next librarian, he'll be using a force stave.

[Rutzah]

I agree with the LC over PS part, but not really a big difference. You lose the extra attack but you get reroll to wound, which can be much better in case of bad rolls or T5 and the likes. I usually take LC + Meltabomb on my Assault sarge, he can still challenge and have the MB for heavy units or tanks. 5 points cheaper than the PF too.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Not even a pistol or meltabomb?

 

Meltabombs if I have some spare points. Pistols I've found too expensive for what they do, sadly

 

surpised so many others do do that it that way though...arent you guys feeling like your missing the "oompf" the powerweapons (of any kind) add?

 

The problem is that every kind of weapon has some sort of drawback that makes it a poor choice for a take all comers list. Swords are ok against marines in power armour, but do nothing to termies and are cost inneficient against low armour troops like orks or guard. Mauls fail against power armour. Axes are great against everything, but are vulnerable to challenges, so are better on priests.

[Chaplain Admetus]

I still quite like power fists... mostly cos my priest is floating around giving him a 5+ FNP against everything. I don't think they're a bad option; just different.

[darth_giles]

I've run into this problem myself. Thought it was cool to give me assault sergeant a thunder hammer, last two times I played he never got to smite his enemy. Even the old metal librarian in TDA that I found has a force axe, which means my IC gets hosed unless the sergeant takes the challenge. Power swords and lances seem to be the new way to go. For my next librarian, he'll be using a force stave.

Storm Shields?

[J-rich54]

Personnaly, I always run my assault squad in pars with a priest and sometimes a libby

 

I always keep the same gear and it worked pretty well for me

 

1 assault sgt- storm shield & power sword ( he's the challenge guy)

2 assault sgt- power axe

Priest / libby power axe joined with the power sword/storm shield guy

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

My Tactical Sergeants don't get a Power Weapon at all anymore. They don't see melee much, if at all, these days so it was a waste of points. Assault Sergeant #1, who rolls with a Power Axe Priest and Force Axe Librarian and who handles 90% of all my challenges gets a Lance. Four S6, AP3 Attacks on the charge hasn't failed me yet. Just don't charge him into Warlords. Assault Sergeant #2 and VV Sarge both get Power Swords for all-around work.

 

Power Axes only go on guys who can't be challenged (like SG, HG, DC and non-Sarge VV) or who in practice are very unlikely to be challenged (like my Librarian and Priest).

[Morticon]

Its difficult to do all the time, but positioning of the sarge is really important because you can avoid challenges and still strike with a bit of good distancing.

 

That aside, consider adding a LC for an extra 15 points. Not only do you get the ability to change out your type of attacks, you also get an additional attack from 2 specialist weapons.

[Demoulius]

@mort, how can you avoid challenges? I thought that you could be challenged as soon as you were in combat? :huh:

 

Stormshield and chainsword might be an interesting combo... Adding a PW ontop of that makes it to expensive imho, but with the SS challenges are less of a problem when you can soak up a ton of hurt regardless of AP value :lol:

 

While I like the punch an poweraxe gives it relies on your opponent essentialy fluffing his attacks (or passing a few FnP saves...) which I dont like the idea off.... Ive had it happen from time to time but also saw sargeants die before they can swing -_-

 

Not to sure if im not attached to much to my sargeants or if I just dont like the idea of seeing all that extra wargear die off before it gets to do anything? :ermm:

 

I like the fact that noone bothered mentioning powermauls you guys think theyre as....useless as I think they are against MEQ? ^_^

[Chaplain Admetus]

Only models -engaged- in combat (i.e. able to strike blows) can issue or accept challenges. But since you don't pile in until initiative step, you can sit your sarge so that he's outside of striking range after the initial charge and is therefore ineligible to issue/accept challenges (and thus can't be sent to the back), but when his initiative step rolls around after everything else has fought, he ploughs in his 3" and starts punching things.

[DominicJ]

Powermauls are only bad against MEQ though.

They are better than swords against EVERYTHING else including, 2+, 3++ and 4++

[Captain Idaho]

Only models -engaged- in combat (i.e. able to strike blows) can issue or accept challenges. But since you don't pile in until initiative step, you can sit your sarge so that he's outside of striking range after the initial charge and is therefore ineligible to issue/accept challenges (and thus can't be sent to the back), but when his initiative step rolls around after everything else has fought, he ploughs in his 3" and starts punching things.

 

Exactly! It's an intricacy of 40K which is what separates the 40K Guardsmen from the Adeptus Astartes!

[knife&fork]

Powermauls are only bad against MEQ though.

They are better than swords against EVERYTHING else including, 2+, 3++ and 4++

 

But 3+ is still incredibly common and 3++ or 4++ is usually accompanied by a 3+ or better anyway.

 

They might suit your local meta but people shy away from them for a good reason.

[DominicJ]

A power maul beats a sword against t4 3+ 4++

[knife&fork]

A power maul beats a sword against t4 3+ 4++

 

That's always something, but does it beat a lightning claw? They usually have an edge on power swords in MEQ vs MEQ situations.

 

If a sergeant is in combat against something with 3+ 4++ it's very likely a multiwound model where a wound from a fist (or hammer) is worth more than wounds caused by any other type of PW. Striking at initiative might not be a factor either if it's a I5 model.

[MadMek83]

All my assault sarges run on jump packs: Stormshield + Powerfist combo, expensive but fun, great on challenging and threatning vehicles / termies while having some surviving chances and on footsloggers ( I got two 5 man squads) their sarges are power axes with storm shields.

 

One of my Dev Sarge has bolt pistol and power sword (my very fist sartgeant ever made and never really thought devs role in the field), two others with CCW and Bolters.

 

My BA tactical has power fist and bolter while my Flesh Tearer Tacticals are all with naked. Sarge with bolt pistol and chainsword. I kitbashed my tactical sargeant for the looks now his PF is a tad liability though for its cost.