Replacing powerfists?

[Black_Sky]

All my sergeants go naked now. Never a situatiin where I feel like I wasted points that way.

 

Your sergeants are nuts. Going naked into a zone of war? I would at least give them their power armour! poor bastards.

 

I prefer swords, and always have. Simply because I like the look of them, and I can't be arsed doing a bunch of conversions on models I've already finished.

[knife&fork]

How about tactical terminator sergeants?

 

I've found powerswords on them to be less than stellar and now that we've got options it could be time to snap off some arms. I bet a lot of people have extra lightning claws over from assault terminator sets.

[Deschenus Maximus]

All my sergeants go naked now. Never a situatiin where I feel like I wasted points that way.

 

Your sergeants are nuts. Going naked into a zone of war? I would at least give them their power armour! poor bastards.

 

It is a philosophical statement to the enemies of the Imperium. They aim to show them "the Naked Truth" of their inferiority by going "balls out" against them.

[appiah4]

Naked.. Interesting..

 

Baring one's genitals is a male act of aggressive posture among some mammals.. I wonder if it would be lost on the Xenos though..

 

Slaneesh would certainly not get it.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I toyed with Storm Shields on Sergeants but found them underwhelming. On average, you either still die to even another PW-wielding Sergeant or Aspiring Champion in a Challenge (or you'll kill them first if they have a Fist/Hammer/Axe so you won't need the 3++) and die to weight of attacks outside of a Challenge or you'll have your 3+ and not need the 3++ anyway

 

Waste of points in my opinion.

[knife&fork]

I toyed with Storm Shields on Sergeants but found them underwhelming. On average, you either still die to even another PW-wielding Sergeant or Aspiring Champion in a Challenge (or you'll kill them first if they have a Fist/Hammer/Axe so you won't need the 3++) and die to weight of attacks outside of a Challenge or you'll have your 3+ and not need the 3++ anyway

 

Waste of points in my opinion.

 

Did you ever use him to tank high S, low AP shots? 3++ with 4+ los and possibly a 5+ FnP is better than just losing a marine.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I toyed with Storm Shields on Sergeants but found them underwhelming. On average, you either still die to even another PW-wielding Sergeant or Aspiring Champion in a Challenge (or you'll kill them first if they have a Fist/Hammer/Axe so you won't need the 3++) and die to weight of attacks outside of a Challenge or you'll have your 3+ and not need the 3++ anyway

 

Waste of points in my opinion.

 

Did you ever use him to tank high S, low AP shots? 3++ with 4+ los and possibly a 5+ FnP is better than just losing a marine.

 

Not really, my Assault Sergeants tend to be in either i) melee; or ii) cover; and iii) range of a Priest at all times. They also have a Power Weapon and used to have a PF/TH. Spending the extra points to increase their ++ save by one and risking losing the only member of the squad that can do any real damage on their own and between 58-73pts worth of Sarge never seemed like a good idea to me.

 

Far better in my opinion to simply take the cover save and FnP on a regular guy and only risk losing an 18pt dudesman if they fail.

[knife&fork]

Far better in my opinion to simply take the cover save and FnP on a regular guy and only risk losing an 18pt dudesman if they fail.

 

Depends, cover tends to be 5+ rather than 4+ these days and I'd be more concerned about losing a special weapon or taking enough casualties to run rather than losing the sarge.

 

What I implied was running a sarge with nothing but shield and pistol. I don't expect assault marines to win against MEQ anymore so any fist, hammer or PW isn't as important as it used to be.

[Drunken Angel]

Untill you come up against armies that must challenge like Chaos or MC's. A single MC or character is vulnerable to a Sgt with a decent hand to hand weapon and a 3++ invun. As long as the unit he is with is not engaged in hand to hand every 5 models confer a re-roll. Tarpitting even for a turn is very useful

 

I know this was about what do you replace the fist with but keeping a model alive long enough to swing back is also central to the point. Dont write off the extra turn a storm shield can gain you to reposition to a threat

 

An axe and storm shield is a good combo. I always have one Sgt with a storm shield and either axe or power fist. I even have a name for him, Sgt Bulletcatcher. This guy is the protection for priests and librarians who move in his squad. He is expensive but remember he is not always a single wound model anymore. If a single character/MC challenges and there are no other engaged models in combat the Sgt gets re-rolls from "get him boss". He is quite durable like this and worth the points, most challenges are against AP3 or stronger weapons so this brings you back to how do you keep the AV3 guy alive or at least guarantee he gets to strike before dying. Its either a lightning claw and no shield and hope there is nothing faster than I4 or take a storm shield with either axe or fist.

[Morticon]

A power maul beats a sword against t4 3+ 4++

 

I believe this is incorrect Dominic.

I believe the maul only beats the sword vs. T6 or more (with 3+).

[DominicJ]

I get

1 sword attack causing 0.125

1 maul attack causing 0.138889

 

Each gets half a hit

The sword gets a quarter of wound

The maul gets 0.41667 of a wound

 

The sword then goes down to an eighth on the 4++

The maul goes down to very slightly above an eigth on 3+

 

Increase the strength or lower toughness, and the sword overtakes (FC, T3), increase toughness (or lower strength) and the maul shines through.

[Monolythic]

Really interesting conversation.... I personally run with PF's on my Sgts. The usefulness in combat against infantry or armor compensates in my experience for the risk of lowI in challenges. I have thought about inserting a LC though.

 

Really enjoying the math hammer from Mort and dominic. hahah

[DominicJ]

I just use excel#

 

=XY/6*successful roles

 

So in this case

A1=1

A2=A1/6*3

A3=A2/6*5 (or three for the sword)

A4=A3/6*2 (or three for the sword)

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

If you run the averages and don't use a mathematical system that Dominic appears to have invented himself...

 

Sarge with Power Sword and BP (assuming MEQ opponent) gets four Attacks (because let's give him the charge) and two hit. One of those hits wounds. Dead opponent.

 

Sarge with Power Maul and BP swing four times, hits twice. Both wound, then both get saved. Alive (and angry) opponent.

[darth_giles]

Sarge with Power Sword and BP (assuming MEQ opponent) gets four Attacks (because let's give him the charge) and two hit. One of those hits wounds. Dead opponent.

 

Sarge with Power Maul and BP swing four times, hits twice. Both wound, then both get saved. Alive (and angry) opponent.

Sarge with Storm Shield and Power Axe gets challenged by Chaos Champion with BP and Power Sword. Sarge gets wounded and makes his Invulnerable save (assuming 3+I because my codex is about 180 miles away and that's what it was last codex), then proceeds to chop the Chaos Chump in half.

 

Although my Havoc sarge is probably going to be carrying only a bolter since Havocs aren't supposed to be charging anything and he's mainly there as an ablative wound to absorb a failed Skies of Blood landing out of a Stormraven.

 

And does anyone know how Power Lances are going to perform? While they're a fish-nor-fowl weapon, they look like they'd work reasonably well in a BA list that's gotten Khorne and the Emperor mixed up.

[BassMattJaxx]

I'll throw my hat in the ring for the powersword, good for all round usage.

I do however, think it will depend on what character(s) (if any) you have riding shotgun with the squad.

 

Lightning claw + Stormshield would be interesting. I ran that combo on my BT Marshall in 5th, and he wrecked face.

[BloodTzar]

I am just thinking out loud, why do you need to gear up sarge when he is dead anyway. Moreover most of the time he is accompanied by a priest. Why not to gear up him?

 

It might be a lot of points but giving your priest a PF and LC, ws5, it would give him additional attack moreover a choice against some troops or even some challanges. While he would stay out of most challanges, as brave naked sarge will suffer a cinematic death, as the priest will murder the squad or at least stood a chance to harm hidden in the crowd ( termies). I am not sure if 6's rule apply to cc tho.

 

To sum up, it should not be overall point increase as most of the sarges had an PF and priest had some sort of PW, now you would just shift the goodies.

[DominicJ]

Don't complain because my maths is better than yours.

 

A1= attacks

a2 = hits, that would be attacks divided by six times number of successful results, ie 4, 5 or 6, so three.

 

And so forth

[Morticon]

Im just going on memory, hey! havent run the numbers since the differences in PWs came out! So, dont take my word for it without checking :cuss

[Morticon]

Sarge without the charge vs MEq:

 

Swd: 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 0.75 wounds - 0.75 unsaved MEq wounds

 

Maul: 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds - 0.416 unsaved wounds

 

 

Swd on charge: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound - 1 unsaved MEq wound

 

Maul on charge: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.66 wounds - 0.55 unsaved MEq wounds

[Chaplain Admetus]

Sword is better against MEQ, I believe. But the Maul is better against anything not power armour. Against 2+ saves, S6 will force them to roll more dice, and against 4+ saves or better then its a simple fact that S6 is better than S4 as the extra point of AP is irrelevant. Against high toughness power armour I'd have to run the maths (e.g. daemon princes and the like). And I'm too full of cake to bother with maths.

[Demoulius]

Glad to see theres so many debate about it, even if its mostly number crunching :D

 

The idea behind the maul is great but the AP of 4 is hurtfull because 90% (or so) of the armies are MEQ's.... wounding on 2's is nice. Allowing saves after that is meh -_- Poweraxes and powerlances can get S6 on the charge as well and are AP3 or better. LC's can get S5 on the charge with reroll (and AP3) which imho is even better then a flat S6! Specialy considering my abyssal dice rolls sometimes...

 

I can think of only 1 MC that has a 4+ save and thats a Harpy, whos T5... so against any other MC's the powermaul's advantages are lost as its opponent has a 3+ save or equal invunerable save. The wounding on 4's isent as big if it still allows saves imho.

 

Ive decided to just take some swords and axes. Il take a powerspear on my bike squad (as it somewhat fits :evil:) but wont bother on other squads. I like that characters are now able to fire multiple pistols as that adds some flavour as well :) plasmapistol/boltpistol is a combi il take on a tactical sargeant (previously plasmapistol/chainsword, so im only gaining something here! :D) and keeping a purely ranged bolter sargeant. Incidentily his squad has the "free" weapon options as well. Budget squad I guess?

 

A sargeant model (one of my first) had a powerfist that im rebuilding, stripping the paint off and putting back together, but this time with a lightning claw. Same pose basicly and it will mean I no longer have a majority of powerfist wielding models anymore ^_^ hes not tied to a squad though so might have to think about that... Im working on a sternguard squad (well in my head, just all planning now...) so he might be the sargeant for it?

 

Cheers for the feedback guys :)

[darth_giles]

I am just thinking out loud, why do you need to gear up sarge when he is dead anyway. Moreover most of the time he is accompanied by a priest. Why not to gear up him?

What about doing both? My current list has an SS and PW combo on my sergeants for sniping challenges, with a BP and axe on the Priests.

 

And I'm still looking for numbers on Lances. :)

[AGPO]

One interesting option I saw ith Death Cult assassins which could be transfered to Marines is to give your sarge a sword and one other type of power weapon. You still get +1A, and have a range of options for the same cost as a thunderhammer or power fist and meltabombs. Sword and axe gives you a range of options against power armour armies, sword and maul gives you allround versitility whilst sword and lance gives you the charge bonus with none of the cost in subsequent turns.

[Chaplain Admetus]

I can think of only 1 MC that has a 4+ save and thats a Harpy, whos T5... so against any other MC's the powermaul's advantages are lost as its opponent has a 3+ save or equal invunerable save. The wounding on 4's isent as big if it still allows saves imho.

 

What about MCs with a 2+ save? (Tyrannofex). Keeper of Secrets has a 4+ save, as do the Bloodthirster and Great Unclean One. Mycetic Spore is technically an MC with a 4+ save, and the C'tan shards have a 4+ as well. Against all of those the maul is better as it forces them to their worse invulnerable save (barring the 'fex) with a higher chance of wounding due to its greater strength. I still reckon the sword is only better against a save of exactly 3+, against anything else the maul is better due to higher S because the AP stops being a factor