Best Allies for a small, elite Army...

[L30n1d4s]

GK armies are small and elite naturally (unless you are going Coteaz/henchman spam), but if you like the style of playing with only a few, very expensive, very capable models, then our codex seems to be one of the very best.

 

Purifiers are great for their points and capable of handling multiple threats, Draigowing is small in numbers but highly potent, spamming Dreadknights is also expensive but very difficult to counter, the list goes on and on.

 

I am always fascinated by allies and the possibilities they bring. For GKs, many people recommend, with good reason, bringing an ally that balances your weaknesses, so something like IG (numbers and raw firepower) or Tau (long range anti-tank) are frequent suggestions.

 

Well, here I am looking at bringing an ally that, like GKs, is expensive and potent, thereby keeping the entire army in the same "elite" style.

 

We have to see what actually comes out with the new DA codex, but if the WD rumors so far can be believed, then I would wager that Dark Angel Ravenwing might be one of the best allies for GKs in an "all-elite" army. With a normal allied detachment, you could have:

 

HQ - Ravenwing Commander

EL - Black Knight squad

TR - Ravenwing Bike squad

FA - Nephilim Fighter

 

So, again all speculation because we don't know all the details, but in my mind this allied detachment would bring multiple things to an elite GK army that compliment it well:

 

1 - A highly mobile, elite CC "line breaker" unit -- The Black Knights + Ravenwing Commander

2 - Highly mobile (i.e. turboboosting), fearless troops for seizing objectives with access to low AP special weapons -- Ravenwing Bike Squad

3 - Cheaper (i.e. non Storm Raven cost) anti-air weapon -- Nephilim Fighter

 

Once the codex comes out, we can see if my predictions are accurate, but I could see an allied detachment like this, in the hands of a skilled player, working tremendously well alongside a small, elite GK primary detachment. For about 1200 points, you could have 2 x 10 man GK Terminators led by 2 Ordos Malleus Inquisitors with Psycannons, TDA, and Divination.

 

Depends on point costs, but I imagine you could at least get a Ravenwing HQ, Biker Squad, and a small squad of Black Knights for an 1850 point game with them remaining 650 or so points. If you bump up to 2000, perhaps you could throw in an Nephilim fighter for anti-air/Close Air Support.

 

Again, this would only apply if you go for small, high quality armies, since Ravenwing is inherently expensive and Black Knights are likely to be ultra-costly points wise.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Except none of things matter to a Knight list.

 

It's true Knights would like a fast element to their lists (we're a slow mid-field generalist army), but we already have it with DK and Interceptors. Bikers just end up eating a lot of points for units that aren't Knights (ie built in advantages and flexibility). And they look positively pathetic next to Henchmen, if you are bringing them for melta/plasma. I've tried vanilla Bikers (cheapest variant) and Ravenwing (current rules), they just use up points I'd otherwise spend on useful stuff. Biker lists are powerful, but they are a different beast to Knights and you end up compromising the strengths of both trying to combine them. Knights wanna camp the mid-field and are expensive. Biker lists wanna hit the enemy in the mouth Turn 2 so hard they get sent reeling, and are smaller+expensive.

 

The new TIE fighters are unlikely to have good rules, but even if they do, we already have the Raven. The Raven costs what it does (I agree its a tad overpriced, but still) because of Assault Ramp, Dreadnought drop (which we never use lol), TDA capacity (small, but its our only other option except for Land Raiders) and it still shoots pretty hard for a transport. If its anti-Flyer you are after, we have far better airplanes from other Allies (cough IG cough), not to mention PsyDreads do a decent job as do quad psycannon Purifiers.

 

This is why I disagree so strongly with the B&C stance on Ally discussion. We're stuck discussing Allies that don't offer much we want (all the power armoured ones that is).

[Inquisitor Fox]

I actually suggest our former allies... as our current allies...

 

The Sisters of Battle.

 

Think about it... we lack numbers. Sisters models are about half the cost as a Grey Knight. They bring power armor. They bring melta. They bring Seraphim and Exorcists. They bring things like Celestine. They are twice as durable if not more so as Imperial Guard due to coming in power armor. They supplement the personal might of the Grey Knights with numbers and steely resolve.

 

I think they two Codices work together hand in hand just fine. Yes, long range suffers. But between the mechanized mobility of the Sisters, shunting/teleporting/deep striking of the Grey Knights, and things like Exorcists/Storm Ravens/Dreadnoughts/Inquisitorial Warbands we can still get some range.

 

I don't plan on really having to change up my model collection :D

 

Edit: Oh, and Sisters have the Avenger fighter-plane. It's got a disgusting number of guns....

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Think about it... we lack numbers. Sisters models are about half the cost as a Grey Knight. They bring power armor. They bring melta. They bring Seraphim and Exorcists. They bring things like Celestine. They are twice as durable if not more so as Imperial Guard due to coming in power armor. They supplement the personal might of the Grey Knights with numbers and steely resolve.

 

I'd much rather ally IG or Orks, if I wanna bulk out my list. Or Henchmen, they provide pretty competitive firepower on the cheap.

Melta access isn't an issue, again Henchmen are an in-faction way, IG get you more melta on a cheaper platform.

Seraphim are nice, but we already have the DK and Interceptors for the same role.

Exorcists are nice, not sure they justify having to take Sisters though.

Celestine is it, they don't bring anything else we are interested in (lol Jacobus and pseudo-Henchmen squad). DK arguably does her job, minus the rez.

They're T3. Power armour helps, I won't deny, but T3 is a problem. Not to mention Sisters fold in melee as easily as Guardsmen, they just take slightly longer to die (assuming you don't get Swept due to losing combat). Their firepower output is lower than IG (due to Orders giving them extra lasgun/re-rolls) or Henchmen (7pt storm bolter Acolytes, yeah...) and arguably Orks (Shoota Boyz are even cheaper than Acolytes). BS4 is nice but you don't get a lot of shots, less than Knights actually (understandable as you are half the price, but still).

 

You don't actually get that many Sisters anyway, unless you aren't fielding any PA Knights at all (which defeats the purpose of Allying at all). If you wanna bulk out a Knight list, Henchmen, IG or Orks are far better options. Henchmen offer dirt-cheap plasma/melta, storm bolters and plasma cannons. IG have a plethora of cheap plasma/melta spam, awesome vehicles and Blobs for tarpitting/camping objectives all game. Orks bring the dakka of storm bolter Acolytes, are nearly as cheap as IG, but are T4 and don't suck in melee. Sisters just don't compare at all, as excellent as Exorcists/Celestine are.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Eh, I don't know. Sisters aren't melee powerhouses, but guardsmen armor is paper thin, and Henchmen aren't scoring where a Sisters squad is. You also don't have limited number of Sisters squads realistically (where Henchmen are limited by your HQ slots). Not everyone takes Coteaz or wants to. Yes, you can get a decent amount of guardsmen really quickly, but standard bolter fire tears through them, or shuriken weapons, or ork guns, or looking at them. Sisters are the compromise between Space Marines and Guardsmen. The benefit is the multiple meltas, the acts of faith, power armor on a cheap model. T3 isn't that much of a problem compared to T4 (having played both for a significant time since I started with Witch Hunters and moved into Grey Knights proper). I notice the 3+ vs 5+ a lot more than I notice the T3 vs T4. In my mind having scoring SIsters in power armor is more useful than scoring Guardsmen who well, kinda stink.

 

To each their own though :D

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Eh, I don't know. Sisters aren't melee powerhouses, but guardsmen armor is paper thin, and Henchmen aren't scoring where a Sisters squad is.

 

They make cover saves, augmented by their insane Orders which let them bunker down then stand up. Aegis lines also help. Also, Henchmen always have Coteaz.

 

The point is, Guard bring about twice the amount of bodies, Henchmen about 1/3rd more, depending on upgrades. They're all T3, and the PA advantage matters little when you get swept in combat regardless (they all suck just as hard in melee). Bodycount has always been an issue for Knights, so in Allies we're looking for ways to do that. Sisters don't do that, they offer inferior PA units that are functionally worse than just bringing more Strikes. The other stuff is nice, but scoring units are what we're interested in, and Sisters don't have good Troops.

 

Not everyone takes Coteaz or wants to

 

If you are taking Henchmen, you are taking Coteaz. It isn't even a question. He is that good in 6th. Even Allied, he's so cheap and useful, you'd be crazy not to.

 

Sisters are the compromise between Space Marines and Guardsmen.

 

Not really. If anything, they are IG Veterans in power armour. Right down to the BS4 and otherwise miserable statline, standard of human units.

 

More to the point, do you want or need such a compromise? You aren't cheap and spammable like Guard, but you aren't as flexible or reliable as Marines (not that Tac Marines are anything special in melee either, but they can swing fights against chaff simply by being durable and punching at WS4/S4).

 

The thing that made Sisters work in prior editions was Faith. 3++ on your infantry, AP1 bolters etc, that was awesome. It made up for them being a compromise of human statlines in PA. Now that Faith is so woeful, its a difficult compromise to make. Especially with the competition IG units, Henchmen and Orks give them as Ally options.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I will just have to disagree with you on the prevalence of cover saves (and honestly, a 4+ or 5+ cover save is still inferior to a 3+ armor save for the majority of incoming fire), and always having Coteaz. It IS a question for me, because while his special ability is useful, there are other options and equipment selections for Inquisitors that mean he is not an auto-include for me. I don't think it's being crazy to not take him.

 

The compromise is still valid at current points cost without considering Faith. Faith is and always was an extra bonus that sometimes worked. It's the same as saying Grey Knights are worth the points increase without considering their psychic powers, which are simply gravy. As someone with the majority of my experience being with Sisters and a base human statline... I think you're underestimating them. That's one of the biggest strengths of the army, people just underestimate them because they aren't Marines and are only human.

 

Your points are valid ones (yes, Coteaz exists, yes Henchmen can be cheaper, yes cover helps mitigate some of the armor factor of Guard) I just feel that they don't outweigh my points or come up often enough to make it a simple yes/no question. :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I will just have to disagree with you on the prevalence of cover saves (and honestly, a 4+ or 5+ cover save is still inferior to a 3+ armor save for the majority of incoming fire), and always having Coteaz. It IS a question for me, because while his special ability is useful, there are other options and equipment selections for Inquisitors that mean he is not an auto-include for me. I don't think it's being crazy to not take him.

 

Not arguing power armour isn't better, but my point is IG have twice the bodies and they can get stupidly good cover saves still ('Incoming!' is +2, so 3+ in normal terrain or 2+ if they are in ruins/Aegis line). Blobs will camp area terrain/use friendly tanks for cover, cover is weaker now but 'Incoming!' combined with 'Get Back In The Fight!' essentially give them Shrouded every turn. I've been up against an IG player who is good at this before, my storm bolter and psycannon do jack all. It's even more annoying than KFF Orks.

 

Dude, what other builds? Xenos Inquisitors are terrible, Hereticus are equally bad (unless you use psyocculum for the lulz). I field either one of these two to accompany Coteaz (usually attached to another shooty warband)

 

- Inquisitor w/force sword+bolt pistol, Divination (55)

- Terminator Inquisitor w/nemesis hammer+psycannon, Divination (110)

 

I agree the TDA Inquisitor is better than Coteaz somewhat (has an actual invul, and a gun, and can Deepstrike with TDA Knights), but none of them unlock Troops Henchmen, nor do they bring his swag of abilities either. Just on the unlock alone, he is pretty much an auto-include in standard Knight lists (especially in smaller games, where those big fat pointsinks of Knight heroes are impractical). Look at him, then look at any other 100pt HQ in the game. He's stupidly good for that price. Lack of any invul (they stole his refractor field from the last version, Mat must have just forgot about it) is my only gripe, and even then its pretty meaningless because 2+ save is now durable as hell in melee (anything that breaks it goes same time as his nemesis hammer).

 

The compromise is still valid at current points cost without considering Faith. Faith is and always was an extra bonus that sometimes worked. It's the same as saying Grey Knights are worth the points increase without considering their psychic powers, which are simply gravy. As someone with the majority of my experience being with Sisters and a base human statline... I think you're underestimating them. That's one of the biggest strengths of the army, people just underestimate them because they aren't Marines and are only human.

 

No, Faith was pretty reliable last edition, and pretty crucial to success. Not only that, but you could choose from a number of Acts on EVERY squad, not be stuck with a useless or corner-case ability on that squad only (the new Acts are awful, I knew they were going to screw it up being a PDF codex, but sweet mercy...). It also went off squad size, and you generated a set amount of Faith every turn based on how many Superiors and Canonesses you had left (I forget, there was probably some other wargear item that gave it too). Random Faith every turn is terrible.

Look sure, you couldn't rely on AP1 bolters every turn, nor 3++ on your squads, but you could pop that Act at a crucial moment on a crucial unit action (ie Seraphim tying up Terminators, or your Sisters facing down melee CSM) and it would swing things. . Keep in mind, they were a 3rd edition codex (with all the baggage from that era, overpriced Rhinos, xboxhueg armoury of options that mostly never got used etc), and they were kicking Marines and xenos round the park in tournaments. TOURNAMENTS. I don't think they ever won any consistently, but they were up there with Orks (ie solid second-string codex). The PDF codex is an abomination, and has pushed them down to Tau levels of bad in the meta. It takes either bad opponents or a truly amazing general to get them to sing now, because GW have done their level best to chip away at everything the 3rd edition codex did right.

 

Your points are valid ones (yes, Coteaz exists, yes Henchmen can be cheaper, yes cover helps mitigate some of the armor factor of Guard) I just feel that they don't outweigh my points or come up often enough to make it a simple yes/no question.

 

Eh, agree to disagree I guess. Here's hoping GW gives them the proper full codex treatment sometime :unsure:

[arisen]

Slightly off-topic, but the guard player's doing his orders wrong; a squad can only be issued 1 order each turn, and "incoming" immediately makes the unit go to ground, and as it's issued at the start of the shooting phase, he's firing snapshots that turn. No getting up until his next turn, where he's just wasted an order using "get back in the fight" instead of a "bring it down" or "first rank fire, second rank fire", which are where the true power of orders lie.

 

IMO the main difference of sisters vs guard/henchman survivability lies with the renewal of barrage, where the aegis defense line cover means nothing, and unless you're in a ruin, that manticore's going to hurt when it hits unless you're in PA.

 

Someone at the store uses sisters on a regular basis, and I find that a retributor squad with HBs hurts a lot with rending, and provides great firesupport for our knights.

 

I think both have merit as allies, but it boils down to quality vs quantity, and as our knights are already far in the quality side, I find adding allies mostly dilutes my list, which *may* be the same with adding the new DA.

 

On the point of bikers - I've already got a fast, hard-hitting unit in the form of a DK, and I don't think DA bikers will come cheap *if* they need sammael/company master on bike to be troops - scouts or regular tacs don't add a lot to our army strikes don't already do.

 

Just my 2 cents ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Slightly off-topic, but the guard player's doing his orders wrong; a squad can only be issued 1 order each turn, and "incoming" immediately makes the unit go to ground, and as it's issued at the start of the shooting phase, he's firing snapshots that turn. No getting up until his next turn, where he's just wasted an order using "get back in the fight" instead of a "bring it down" or "first rank fire, second rank fire", which are where the true power of orders lie.

 

Ah ok, I thought it was 'player turn' not 'game turn'.

 

Someone at the store uses sisters on a regular basis, and I find that a retributor squad with HBs hurts a lot with rending, and provides great firesupport for our knights.

 

Yeah Retributors are nice, as are Exorcists, Celestine etc. But Troops is lacking, which is why we want Allies. We can get an OP flying monster (DK), or a good fire support unit (PsyDreads, Purifier quad psycannon) in-faction. Its bodycount and scoring we want more than anything from an Ally.

 

On the point of bikers - I've already got a fast, hard-hitting unit in the form of a DK, and I don't think DA bikers will come cheap *if* they need sammael/company master on bike to be troops - scouts or regular tacs don't add a lot to our army strikes don't already do.

 

Maybe going the other way? DA might like us as Troops/Elites, depending on how the revamped Deathwing+Ravenwing turn out.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Can we discuss Necrons as an ally for our Grey Knights? I've had a lot of success with this combination.

 

G :P

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Can we discuss Necrons as an ally for our Grey Knights? I've had a lot of success with this combination.

 

You can, just not here. The Tactics or Army Lists forums are permitted to discussed xenos and IG Allies

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Okay thanks.

 

G :P

[Gentlemanloser]

they stole his refractor field from the last version, Mat must have just forgot about it

 

And Karamzov forgot his Iron Halo, which is built into his throne. Maybe he forgot to charge it's power pack, or switch it on...

 

As for Henchmen, I'm starting to warm to sticking 5 SB Warriors in a Chimera, and using a Repressor to represent the tank.

 

90 Points for an AV12 bunker with in essence a TL HB (you could keep the ML if you want!) that your entire SB squad can fire out of, keeping thier squishy T3 frames alive in.

 

What's not to like? :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

And Karamzov forgot his Iron Halo, which is built into his throne. Maybe he forgot to charge it's power pack, or switch it on...

 

Its really weird aye. Its like they made a rule. 'Inquisitors aren't allowed invulnerable saves, evah! Except for that one guy in TDA....'

 

As for Henchmen, I'm starting to warm to sticking 5 SB Warriors in a Chimera, and using a Repressor to represent the tank.

 

90 Points for an AV12 bunker with in essence a TL HB (you could keep the ML if you want!) that your entire SB squad can fire out of, keeping thier squishy T3 frames alive in.

 

What's not to like?

 

Chimera bunkers are nice, but I'd put something a little more formidable in it. Plasma servitors can still fire out the top hatch, and they'll do way more. And you can still fit as many ablative wounds as possible on, because capacity = max squad size.

 

HP are really making me question even our dirt-cheap Henchmen armour these days. Glances are lethal now, it really does make a difference in fights. My Dreads are averaging Turn 2/3 deaths, which is quite depressing.