Were all the Dark Angels lost on Caliban only the Fallen?

[[TA]Typher]

Greetings Brethren,

 

Since my induction into the Dark Angels (around 3rd edition), I've always wondered what happened to all the Lion's angels that assaulted Caliban with him? did they all die or get stuff forever in the warp? To answer that question with a solid "yes", would seem to limit the Immaterium to being wholly evil. I don't think this is the case. Although, the four major Chaos "Gods" are powerful, they are not the only thing that lives in the warp.

 

Among the beings that live in the Immaterium there are those that run against the grain of the major powers. Malal for example. Link> http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Malal

Who is to say that even one such as Malal wouldn't return a loyalist to the mortal universe just to screw over the other Chaos beings? And... what of the Emperor? If Psyker powers draw there power from the warp, then is it safe to say that the greatest of master of mankind is dwells somewhere in there? If I remember my old school fluff the shaman that made up the Emperor lived there in a peaceful renewing pool of existence, before mankind the the material beings in the universe formed the four powers.

 

Why would the multitude of lost Loyalist Angels disappear forever? I understand that some would never return. tbut some.... a slim few might.

 

In my fluff there have been Lost Angels found. Although uncommon for the secretive, paranoid chapter to actually reincorperate these lost relics back into the chapter there have been a few... Among these very small handful one stands out, Gabriel Typheran, Captain and Sword Master of the 7th great Chapter. Viewed with suspicion and watched closely He leads warriors of the Lion's Astartes once again in to burning inferno of war. Watched over by those that would just as likely kill him as any enemy of the Imperium, He again takes up the mantel of Sword Master, slaying all champions of Chaos that dare stand before him.

 

 

I've started to write fan fiction regarding him (Yes, I'm that big of a nerd), and have several twists that involved the secretive chapter.

 

Today I finished a kitbash model to represent him in my gaming sessions.

 

Tell me what you think.

 

 

http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z389/typher/Gabriel%20Typheran/th_IMG_3646_zps4819ba23.jpg

 

 

I have more pics here.

 

Link> http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=267525

[Harleqvin]

There have been marines that got sucked into/lost in the warp that have returned. GK have that one guy who pops back every now and then. There is the Imperial Fist guy, I think it's Lysander, had something silly happen.

 

Currently for our fluff I don't think it has been stated that there have been any that weren't traitors (and I don't mean chaos tainted traitors but just straight up traitors against the Imperium/Emperor.) but with that being said it hasn't said that there weren't any good marines who were sucked in.

 

I personally think its possible that there were some good ones who got sucked in. With me going on that that's how I am going for my Successor Chapter's backstory. Haven't fleshed it out but it's that it was a whole contingent, two Battalions, that sort of thing and they were too close to where the rift happened and got sucked in.

 

As said I don't recall any current fluff that says there has been or that there hasn't.

 

The part you stated with the old fluff about the shamans hasn't been touched on by GW in a loooooooong time. Same with the Fifth chaos god who hated all other chaos powers and wanted all chaos to die.

 

So you could make your own fluff having a good DA having been sucked into the warp rift and been blown out and is working with the DA or a Successor for DA with no real issues. Would just need to give a good reason why the current DA didn't just Int-Chap him to death, for the fluff fanatics that is. :)

 

 

Also were you using the bold option for that entire post or did you use a bigger font size? Either way it looked like yelling. :P

[Lucien Eilam]

I don't think there were "multitudes" of Loyalists present on the surface, never mind lost. The fleet bombarded the planet from orbit while the Lion went down to confront Luther in a "surgical strike", resulting in what's always been described as a duel. There are no descriptions of any major ground battles, and all the Dark Angels found at the end was Luther.

 

I can't see any reason to assume there was more than a small bodyguard of Loyalists on the planet at most even at the start, never mind surviving to the end. The duel was of such titanic proportions that it caused the main fortress-monastery to collapse in chunks the size of battle-tanks, and Primarchs (at this point Luther is obviously the equal of a Primarch, at least in combat) go through regular Space Marines like a scythe. It wouldn't be a healthy place to be.

 

It's very difficult to embellish the defining event of a First Founding Chapter's history. The Ruinous Powers explicitly scattered the Fallen. It's very specific: the Chaos Gods created a warp rift that swept up all the Fallen and scattered them through space and time. If you want scattered Loyalists, you need an entity with the means and motive to do it, right under the Big Four's noses, and an explanation for why nobody's ever mentioned them before.

[Haranin]

The last is easy- no one knows; or its restricted to very high inner circle members.

[Bryan Blaire]

I've been of the belief for a while that if there were some "loyal" DA on the surface of Caliban that returned to the 40k-verse, then here's the rub for them: how would modern Inner Circle members be able to tell the difference, and therefore they would treat all those claiming to be loyal as false. You only have to look at the story of Astelan from Angels of Darkness to see how that played out. Numerous times he claimed loyalty, even when taken captive, he claimed loyalty and confusion as to his treatment by the Dark Angels. Even if a Librarian could confirm with absolute certainty that a captured Fallen believed himself to be utterly loyal, that is almost meaningless, he may feel himself to be loyal, but he likely bears a "taint" of Chaos simply by being thrown through the Warp that would be detected- we know this occurs because anything in the Warp gets touched in some fashion by Chaos, so how do you determine that this taint hasn't altered the claimant in some other fashion, including warping/adjusting his mind. It means a quick repentance and death if they are truly loyal, and a long drawn out interrogation until their soul has repented if they protest being forced to repent for something they don't feel they did (a la Astelan).

 

The Inner Circle is paranoid, willing to sacrifice almost anything to keep the secret of the Fallen from not only reaching the eyes and ears of the Inquisition and the High Lords of Terra, but the people of the Imperium as well. They aren't going to take risks with claims of loyalty. Their histories don't appear to indicate that any that went into the Warp were loyal. Even the Codex specifies "Those 'fallen' Dark Angels who had served under Luther and his clandestine masters were sucked from the face of Caliban into the warp and cast throughout space and time." Without further contradicting statements that the Inner Circle believe otherwise, we have to take what is stated in the Codex as what they believe.

 

There would need to be a spectacularly fantastic story with up front, indisputable proof to convince the Inner Circle that a Fallen claiming loyalty was truly loyal and should not be forced to repent. You are having to convince the most hard line of hard line believers that their "history" for the last 10 millennia is not what they, the organization with safeguarding the secrets of that history, believe it is. That's going to take more than just armor and saying that they have electronic evidence is reaching... What, they have a hand-written note of assurance about their loyalty from the Lion?

 

The Inner Circle is an organization that has been keeping this secret from the prying eyes of the Inquisition for 10 millennia, which means they have to be better about ferreting out leaks, planting false trails and evidence, and all the other actions a clandestine intelligence organization has to do to maintain its operations and secrets. They have (circumstantial evidence only) possibly destroyed the war ship of a known loyal Chapter to keep these secrets. What is the loss of a single or even few Marines claiming loyalty in comparison?

[Lucien Eilam]

The last is easy- no one knows; or its restricted to very high inner circle members.

Not really. Typher's concept has them not only knowing about it but reintegrating them into the Chapter. As Bryan says, it would fundamentally change the Hunt for the Fallen for there to be Loyalists out there. No background has Interrogator-Chaplains trying to figure out which side their captives were on, it's always all about repentance.

 

And don't forget the background tells us plenty of things that no character in-universe knows, like the whereabouts of the Lion. But there's never been the slightest hint that any Loyalists were scattered like the Fallen.

 

If you want to create a character who was dragged into the Warp sometime in the past and is now viewed with suspicion by his comrades, why does it have to have happened during the single most important event in Dark Angels history? You have 10,000 years to work with without stretching the established story in weird directions with massive consequences.

[Brother Immolator]

First of all I checked the thread and the conversion is so good I am tempted to blatantly steal the idea :)

 

As for the fluff. My reasoning is simply what I would do in the place of an interrogator chaplain or even a Librarian assistant. Even if he was loyal, he has to die.

There can be no risk. He has been touched by the warp. There is no way to be 100% sure that he will remain loyal. Better destroy such an entity than risk it.

Also indeed the fluff tells us that only fallen were scattered. Whether they were all touched by chaos one way or the other. Some did so willingly, others were influenced so subtly that they dont even know it. After all not all servants of chaos serve knowingly or willingly. Magnus the Red or the soul drinkers come to mind.

 

Ultimately though, if the background is the one that you desire, I would stick to a successor chapter that is more unhooked from the secret. Such as the angels of absolution. Or one that is completely oblivious to it.

[Bryan Blaire]

[TA]Typher, while I'm not 100% in fluff agreement, I will say you have created a spectacular model. That is an awesome Champion figure! Very nice work, now you just have to get some paint on him!

[Harleqvin]

It's just that it doesn't say "only" the fallen were taken. It's another one of those things that they don't explicitly state one way or another. It's just assumed that all that got pulled into the warp rift were fallen from how they worded it.

 

And the Astelan thing, "We" know that he is a fallen because of the HH stories.

 

So it all comes down to giving a good fluff background for why they didn't take them out. Mine will be something about the chapter being known as loyalist when it got pulled in by being too close to the proximity of where the warp rift was when it opened up and assumed destroyed by the rift. Which would be plausible.

[Bryan Blaire]

It's just that it doesn't say "only" the fallen were taken. It's another one of those things that they don't explicitly state one way or another. It's just assumed that all that got pulled into the warp rift were fallen from how they worded it.

 

And the Astelan thing, "We" know that he is a fallen because of the HH stories.

 

So it all comes down to giving a good fluff background for why they didn't take them out. Mine will be something about the chapter being known as loyalist when it got pulled in by being too close to the proximity of where the warp rift was when it opened up and assumed destroyed by the rift. Which would be plausible.

Since it specifies "those 'fallen' that served"... that sounds relatively explicit.

 

As far as your background... how do you explain that the computer data may have been falsified or that they aren't wearing captured armor on a captured ship in a ploy by the Fallen? It's a lot to ask a paranoid Inner Circle to take on faith. These guys seem like people that make conspiracy theorists look sane with regards to the secret...

[Grotsmasha]

It had always been my opinion that any loyalist DA on Caliban died in its destruction. My reasoning being that it was the gods of Chaos that plucked the Fallen from Caliban and spared their lives, scattering them through space and time, the Chaos gods would've had no reason to save any Loyal DA.

 

Now lets say that my opinion is wrong, and some Loyalist DA were scattered with the Fallen, the DA, so full of distrust would never believe the claim of, "I never fell". It would all fall under wrong place, wrong time, no exceptions, you were there, you are Fallen, you are guilty.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Harleqvin]

@Bryan Blaire: It isn't as explicit as you are trying to make it to be. It doesn't say that there weren't any others. Until then it is open to being that there "could" have been Loyal DA that got pulled in, too. Now I am not saying that 100% without a doubt that is the case. Just that it is plausible. It probably is that only the Fallen were pulled in but because of them not saying only the Fallen and the Fallen alone were, it leaves it open to possibility.

 

The armor would still be Black as they would be in Pre/heresy colors. They wouldn't know of what the heck has happened as to them it would be that only a bit of time had passed and would be trying to get a hold of The Lion and the DA fleet. Which would be a first cue to the DA that something is more amiss, not the usual "it's just 'Fallen'."

 

Data can always been changed. It would come down to an investigation. As said below.

 

@Grotsmasha: Not all of the Fallen were followers of Chaos. The DA do their interrogation. They normally find that the person is a true traitor, was just following orders and has realized what they did was wrong. Then they figure if he is either truly repentant of it or that they aren't and continue lying and so forth

 

If during the interrogation, they see no discrepancy in what they are saying, they never turned against The Lion and/or the Emperor nor that they say Emperor and/or Lion turned against them, it would be left to show they aren't lying. Also Ezekiel is powerful enough that he can sense any taint within a person (that's currently fluff in the current codex.) It seems that with all the fluff I have read that each of the fallen either believe they were betrayed by the Lion and/or the Emperor or they realize they had failed and have tried to hide.

 

I actually think it would be funny if the Consecrators are actually a bunch of loyal DA from the Destruction of Caliban era who were sucked into the Warp rift being to close to it. At least I haven't read any legit fluff that has said to much of them beyond that their deeds are largely unrecorded and there is no record in known archives of their existence prior to the third century of the fortieth millennium. :D That or they are freed non-chaotic Fallen DA who have repented :P

 

Also it would be something Chaos would do to hurt the DA to throw loyalist into the warp too. I am sure that the Chaos Gods know of possible futures and would know of things that could happen, being that the DA could find out about the Fallen not having been killed and this would be a way to further hurt the armies of Mankind making it so there would be some who were Loyal and that the DA would still have to burden themselves with having to figure out if they are Fallen or not.... Totally a Chaos-like thing to do. I mean Chaos did use the events of the future to try and make Horus think it was the Emperor was trying to be a God. When all it was were the events after the Horus Heresy without context.

[Brother Immolator]

Harleqvin, I am afraid you reasoning is a little faulty. Not all fallen were following chaos 'willingly' and 'knowingly'.

As I said earlier see Magnus the Red and the Soul drinkers for reference. In a nut shell they were manipulated using their inner desires against them. As much as the non chaos aligned fallen did. Luther didn't promote faith in the dark powers as Lorgar for example did. All he promised (presumably) was the removal of the 'Blind, glory hound' that the Lion had became all the while refusing his brothers and turning from the 'true path' of the emperor.

See what I mean? It was a political maneuvering that sealed their fates. They were following chaos by ignoring the emperors chosen leader and his mandate (after all, in light of the recent novels it becomes clear that the Lion is the most loyal primarch, perhaps after Sanquinius if you want a scale) and taking up arms against them. Such a betrayal was unheard of at the time. Only Horus and his lackeys did such a thing and we don't know what they knew about it on Caliban.

If they did, the condemnation is even worse. The chaos powers need an army to cause havoc among the legion, pawns nothing more nothing else.

 

I also don't believe the chaos gods at the time sought more followers on Caliban, sundering on of the largest and most loyal legions and eventually removing from the game a primarch who could have kept the pieces of the imperium together given the chance was a major victory on itself.

 

Back to the original topic: It could be reasoned that some of the honour guard of the Lion might have survived the blast if they were on the tower of angels, though they would most likely have been cut down since the final battle was a duel. But even then an interrogator wont take chances. They might not kill them outright, but at the very best they will be kept shackled.

 

As for marines that disappeared in the warp and rejoined their chapters such as lysander, they were missing only a few centuries at best and passed inquisitorial 'debriefing' and Librarian probing. Who among our chapter would handle over a suspected traitor to the inquisition to 'debrief' him? We have our own pointy sticks and they are not for reintegration, believe me.

[Lucien Eilam]

It's just that it doesn't say "only" the fallen were taken. It's another one of those things that they don't explicitly state one way or another. It's just assumed that all that got pulled into the warp rift were fallen from how they worded it.

No. When you state something happened in a story, you don't have to make a list of all the things that didn't happen. It's entirely explicit:

 

"Those 'fallen' Dark Angels who had served under Luther and his clandestine masters were sucked from the face of Caliban into the warp and cast throughout space and time."

- Codex: Dark Angels, p.9

 

If it just said "the Dark Angels" or "the Space Marines" or "everyone" on the surface, there might be room for doubt who that included, but it doesn't. It specifically states the fallen Dark Angels who had served under Luther, and there's no indication anywhere in the background that anyone else was even on Caliban in the first place.

[Harleqvin]

and because they didn't say "only" it leaves it open for possibility. Because if they didn't state something happened in a story, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

There were others but doesn't state how many as The Lion had lead the assault on the Tower of Angels. However it could be that Lion was the "assault" as they didn't state any went with him...

 

 

Also I did state earlier that not all were Chaos tainted. some were following orders and what not (blindly following not knowing they were erring. I apologize I didn't state more in depth. It does say that some didn't fall to chaos. Just that they were traitors to the Emperor and Imperium for what they did, either willingly or unwillingly.)

 

Lysander was gone for almost a thousand years, I thought, and I thought it was just the Imp Fists' Librarians and Apothecaries that did the testing for like months.

[Haranin]

Its a subjective text, not objective. Consider the recent speculation that the short story Deathwing is just one of the founding myths told to new aspirants to prepare them for the fallen...

[Bryan Blaire]

I'm not going to pursue this any farther, because some of this will come down to your personal belief on how concrete and explicit the stories in the Codex are. I've always seen these histories written as fairly concrete, and in the case of the Dark Angels, how the Inner Circle believes/knows regarding the events at Caliban. Since there haven't been any Black Library novels that have ever spoken about loyal Dark Angels thrown through the Warp from the battle at Caliban on the 30K or 40K side and the novel Angels of Darkness shows how the Dark Angels deal with a Dark Angels Marine from The Fall who claims to be loyal. Regardless of our knowledge of the fact that he is a Fallen, this novel more than anything else shows exactly how the Dark Angels deal with this, namely that they don't care about his claims at all, loyal feeling or not, they feel he is a Fallen and therefore he must repent and die, and I have no doubts that they would willingly eliminate loyal Marines to keep the secret, ala the Ophidium Gulf "allegation". I'm not arguing each of our personal beliefs on the concrete-ness of the Codex statements, I'm arguing the beliefs of the Dark Angels Inner Circle, which have so far been demonstrated to be pretty narrow regarding the concept of the Fallen. This could change given new revelations from the DA trilogy on the way, but unfortunately I don't have those novels to be able to see if my position might change.

 

Haranin, there is no speculation. Page 16 of the Codex objectively states that it is known as the 'Tale of Two Heads Talking", and it states it is Chapter legend. It is one of many tales told. There is no question there. Legend is defined by Merriam-Webster English dictionary as a story coming down from the past, especially one popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable or a body of such stories. The language used is pretty specific.

 

Now, if you argue that everything in 40K is subjective, that's fine, I've done it more than probably healthy, but without Codex base-lines, we really have no point of intersection to even discuss the armies, so there isn't any point in having a discussion.

[Haranin]

Actually it says "Chapter legend states...."

 

That is language someone uses to present something that is not true as being stated by another source to distance the speaker from the statement.

 

If the codex author wanted it to be definitive, it would say "In M34 the following event occurred...." or something similar

 

I read that codex entry as a distancing from gene stealer event actually occurring to perhaps being a story told to prepare for the fallen.

 

Of course, this is GW. Precision in wording is not their strength!

[Bryan Blaire]

Yes Haranin, that was exactly what I said. I agree completely. It's not speculative or subjective, they worded it like that specifically so that it would read as you and I both stated.

[MadMek83]

What's left of the 13th Great Space Wolves company that was gone nearly 10,000 years in the the Warpcame back still Loyal and all with Normal dark grey colors albeit with lots of wulfen. But they did return and were loyal and Fire Hawks who were stranded in Warp, granted they most likely came insane and become Legion of the damned but they're still loyal.

 

I am sure interrogator chaplains and Asmodai would have ways to actually tell difference between traitor and loyalist, albeit it would be painful and very uncomfortable. I would hate to think Lions chaplains would be incompetent buffoons like most of the interrogators working for the Inquisition... (or I might have watched a tad too much Monty Python)

 

And Dark Eldars, sure their city of Commorragh is in the warp and such and they sacrifice souls for the Slaaneshi and are evil. But they do not worship in chaos Gods and only sacrifice others souls so their souls would not be consumed by the Great Enemy... but they're xenos so they can be ignored aslong they're not in range of bolter or lasccannon. (Unless you're serving in Deathwatch)

[Onisuzume]

Haranin, there is no speculation. Page 16 of the Codex objectively states that it is known as the 'Tale of Two Heads Talking", and it states it is Chapter legend. It is one of many tales told. There is no question there. Legend is defined by Merriam-Webster English dictionary as a story coming down from the past, especially one popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable or a body of such stories. The language used is pretty specific.

Two-Heads Talking? You mean that Deathwing story about the genestealer invasion of the plains world?

 

There's actually evidence that suggests that it really did happen.

Index Astartes 3 makes a mention of the Iron Hands participating in a battle of thranx, with the rebellion being due to alien influence.

While the rebellion was crushed, some time later they failed to provide their tithes for 20 years and a combined force of DA, SW, UM and Necromundan IG led by an Inquisitor. Knowing how genestealers cults work, it would be possible that while the rebellion was crushed, some genestealers remained to later surface again. Or, possibly, it concerns the same engagement.

 

In any case, it likely happened in either M36 or M37.

I am sure interrogator chaplains and Asmodai would have ways to actually tell difference between traitor and loyalist, albeit it would be painful and very uncomfortable. I would hate to think Lions chaplains would be incompetent buffoons like most of the interrogators working for the Inquisition... (or I might have watched a tad too much Monty Python)

Well, Astellan managed to crack after only a day or two under Boreas' hands, iirc.

Should say quite a bit of their skills compared to that of the =][=.

[Bryan Blaire]

Some of the best legends likely do have some kernel of truth or are based on some kind of true occurrence. That doesn't change their legend status. It is stated in the Codex as part of the tales told throughout a Marine's service. Tale, legend, not history. There isn't any speculation about those statements.

 

As far as determining loyalist from traitor, read Angels of Darkness to see how they treat a single Marine claiming to be a loyalist. They aren't looking for loyalists.

[MadMek83]

As far as determining loyalist from traitor, read Angels of Darkness to see how they treat a single Marine claiming to be a loyalist. They aren't looking for loyalists.

 

Based on that and what you say: They aren't looking for loyalist, there for they shall not find loyalists. Why interrogators are so feared. No matter if you're innocent or guilty they shall get confession out of you.

[Brother Immolator]

As far as determining loyalist from traitor, read Angels of Darkness to see how they treat a single Marine claiming to be a loyalist. They aren't looking for loyalists.

 

Based on that and what you say: They aren't looking for loyalist, there for they shall not find loyalists. Why interrogators are so feared. No matter if you're innocent or guilty they shall get confession out of you.

 

Exactly. The problem is that they don't search for innocence because they know there are no innocents. Or at the very least the are willing to condemn even innocents to death in order to ensure that no corrupt ones escape. Its a mentality that works when you are at a loss in regards to what to do.

[[TA]Typher]

While the assault on Caliban hasn't been written yet, I find it hard to believe that the Lion would have gone alone. I also find it hard to believe that any vanguard units or bodyguard would die to the man, leaving only the Lion alive. I don't think the Black Library is above that (Just look at Ferrus's clumsy, lackluster portrayal in 'Fulgrim'. Not only did he come off as totally inept, his Astartes failed to kill or even injure any of the EC, while dying left and right to them. To me this was just horrible writing). Personally I believe that he did take his sons with him, why wouldn't he? I also believe that Heroes of thousands of battles would live just as long, if not longer then any Fallen that had been stuck on Caliban tending recruits.

 

 

 

I also find it hard to believe that the warp is so one dimensional that they would leave all those Loyal to the Lion to their fate. Just look at the Kaldor Draigo of the Grey Knights. Why would the powers that exist in the warp pull him in at not just kill him? Let alone let him return to the mortal realm to fight against Chaos incursions. Why? Because the eddies and counter currents of the warp do not always flow in the same directions. Couple this with the OTHER powers in the warp, unnamed Gods, the Emperor and others not yet named and you have all the license you need to add plausibility to the idea.

 

 

 

As for the Dark Angels reaction to finding these Lost Angels, I agree with the majority of you. If the Inner Circle was to find a loyal DA from the siege of Caliban they would hold them just like they would a Fallen. They would torture them, interrogate and likely kill them. But, if someone intervened. Something... intervened. who is to say what would happen then?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

GW fluff has always been a fluid thing. Sometimes it holds fast to an ideal, only to have that idea revised later. The thought of a Lost Angel renewing his fight against the enemies of the Imperium seems to fit to me. Of course simple black and white, good vs evil wouldn't be part of the story. No. The Angels live is a shades of grey area in the 40k universe. And, who is to say that this Lost Angel wouldn't live there too?