Codex:Space Marine for Iron Warriors?

[Nehekhare]

play the best damn game you can. [...] instead of complaining on a forum, which will provide literally nothing to the game.

 

why? do i get paid in some way for providing you with threads to read that find your approval?

 

rest assured, I AM playing the best game i can (which is not C:CSMeh), I just do not think it is up to you to decide which kind of game that is. I provide nothing but my opinion. Take or don't. Have your own opinion, recognize it as such and don't tell others that theirs is wrong. I am disappointed in the codex. Who are you to tell me I must not?

 

You know, in another thread, not long ago, I wrote that I loved how the new dex brought the chaos community closer together - we share the feeling of bitterness it produced compaired to the golden days of yore. We share the hatred for condescending loyalists who get everything we deserved fed with a golden spoon. We share the struggle for individuality against steamlined posterboy marketing strategies and the cynism of seeing our hopes betrayed time and time again.

 

What does complaining about complaining provide?

[the jeske]

feeling of superiority , part of bonding of the "CSM dex-just fine" group . it does many things.

[Brom MKIV]

I have a friend who is a huge iron warriors fan and looking to get into the game now, in the past he has only read the literature. He recently acquired CSM and likes it although I told him theres some inherent problems he isnt seeing. Anyway.. I was wondering would allying necrons be too much of a stretch to make a proper IW force that is decently competitive?

[Xenith]

i find with the new C:CSM that the new daemon engines aren't the best of ways of representing the dark technologies coming from the warp

you know xenith, IW and/or dark mech players like me have converted ad counted-as based on IA-article fluff for years before GW came up with dinobots and turkey.

 

i like my ideas more than what some bloke in the studio who was paid to write a codex he doesn't care about pulls out of his backside to make the deadline.

 

you think otherwise? maybe we're just both entitled to our personal opinion then?

 

*Facepalm*

 

With that quote, I realised there is no point in trying to convince you that the Chaos Codex is the best codex to represent a Chaos force.

 

 

Interesting how you defend everyone's right to an opinion, then rip the hell out of GW's opinion of what the Dark Mechanicus would produce.

 

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The OP asked the question as to the appropriateness of C:SM to represent the IW.

 

When challenged, or using the IW codex was suggested, the OP clearly does not want to use the C:CSM codex.

 

There is no point in this thread at all.

 

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I play Iron Warriors. My big guns are a vindi, basilisk (counts as vindi, when GW took that option away), 9 oblits, lots of havoks. I dont see how changing to C:SM gets me any more big guns.

 

Dont like the Dinobot? Want 6 dreads? Surely if you have no problem with using C:SM for Iron Warriors (counts-as across the whole army) you can count a single large walker robot as a Forge/Maulerfiend? They're all armour 12 walkers, after all.

 

Just the use the rules to represent your own creations.

[Pavement Artist]

feeling of superiority , part of bonding of the "CSM dex-just fine" group . it does many things.

 

Jeske, please could you play a casual game for the sake of fun? Just for me please sugar?

[Kol Saresk]

But Kraine, life is full of competition. So why not bring it to the game?

[Xenith]

Jeske, please could you play a casual game for the sake of fun? Just for me please sugar?

 

Check the quote in Jeske's sig.

 

People have fun in different ways, he (hopefully) has fun by playing with super efficient lists. As long as the entire game group does the same, then its ok, although the crowd would get very boring very quickly.

[the jeske]

feeling of superiority , part of bonding of the "CSM dex-just fine" group . it does many things.

 

Jeske, please could you play a casual game for the sake of fun? Just for me please sugar?

 

The question wasnt about gaming . It was what people who complain about those who complain about the codex. The two listed are common to all man and groups of all size[as in human] , no matter from where the people are .

There are other things too , but they arent common for all . For example anglosaxon countries ,due to how protestantism shaped the view on success[it is a good, god given and/or sign of god aproval] ,saying that your unhappy , is socialy frowned on . So an a sub councious level some people may feel that any form of dissatisfaction is wrong.

[Nehekhare]

I realised there is no point in trying to convince you

why exactly did you feel the need to in the first place?

 

There is no point in this thread at all.

Is that your opinion or just deconstructing other's opinions? explain.

 

counts-as across the whole army

I would actually use more counts-as for my IW if I wanted to play by the new CSM dex.

 

that is why I use the only list left to play a real legion (IMO): horus heresy.

[Iron Warrior w/ Servo Arm]

But Kraine, life is full of competition. So why not bring it to the game?

 

Because it's not. People want to be "competitive" mostly for the bragging rights. And/or ego. Mostly ego. :)

[Kol Saresk]

But Kraine, life is full of competition. So why not bring it to the game?

 

Because it's not. People want to be "competitive" mostly for the bragging rights. And/or ego. Mostly ego. :)

Exactly my point. Although thank you for being blunt to my being facetious. ;)

 

EDIT: Nehekhare, have you ever considered that maybe what you were looking for wasn't Chaos but was the pre-Chaos Legion?

[Antarius]

It's your game, you can -and should- obviously do what you like with it.

 

That being said, when the thread title is "Codex:Space Marine for Iron Warriors?" it seems reasonable to actually want to have the debate on whether C:SM, C:CSM or some third codex is the best fit for IW. If you've already made up your mind that it is, that's fine of course. But then the thread becomes something else entirely.

That's just in the interest of clearing up the mixed replies.

 

Now, at the risk of further derailing this thread ( ;) ) :

-I (personally) don't think C:SM is a good fit for IW, for several reasons

-I (personally) think C:CSM, possibly with allies, can do a pretty good IW force

 

First off, Space Marines have a lot of things that are quite nice to have, but which feel like a stretch for CSM. The most notable being ATSKNF, probably. But basically, if you wanted to stay fluffy and with a manageable amount of counts-as, you'd be restricting yourself from huge parts of the codex and (I would think) end up being pigeonholed at least as much as you'd be with C:CSM. This depends somewhat on what level of counts-as you and your group is comfy with of course.

Personally, I flirted with the idea of doing a Night Lords army with the SW codex in 5th, but ended up not doing it for reasons of in-group griping with counts-as, realizing that even AD-B "purist style" NL weren't really all that "purist" and lastly, the amount of counts-as creep I found myself struggling with in order to meet the needs of the game ("hmm, I'd like some of these wolves, maybe they could be superfast cultist-slave-infiltrators...").

I'm thinking you might run into similar issues, if you want a flyer, for example -and thus you'll find yourself making compromises or stretches right from the word "go".

Again, depending on you and your group this may or may not be a problem, but what I'm saying is, WYSIWYG/count-as manageability and counts-as "creep" is totally a thing to think about.

 

Second, if you're going for Dark Mechanicus allies, why not use the allies system for those? That way you can have any conversions/counts-as stuff there and avoid confusion. Plus, it makes sense on a basic level -the CSM are CSM and their allies are allies. I personally find that it makes it easier for both myself and my opponents, as well as it just "feels" better (which is probably highly subjective, I know).

I also think you get some pretty good toys in the C:CSM for representing Chaos Marines that you will find yourself missing with C:SM. Actual Obliterators, Daemon Engines (convert the abominable Helldrake, for the love of all things unholy! It's easy and it can look good with some tinkering), weapon options and (if you want them) Marks.

 

Some armies are definitely represented more well than others with the new book, but I honestly think the one you want is very doable within the codex. Furthermore, I don't think you'll be crippling yourself either, which is a very valid concern (it was my chief concern when I didn't want to do a Night Lords force with the old 'dex, at least). I mean, there's no fun to having a fluffy force that looks cool and is great at "telling stories" if the only story it'll ever tell is the story of how everyone laughed at the Iron Warriors before wiping them out with one hand tied behind their backs.

 

Take it for what you will. It's offered in the spirit of friendly advice, in any case :devil:

[Nehekhare]

Nehekhare, have you ever considered that maybe what you were looking for wasn't Chaos but was the pre-Chaos Legion?

 

I don't think so, and I am eagerly awaiting HH book II for more daemonic dark mechanicum allies. I want a working set of rules that allows me to adaequately play my vision on the table. I do have to admit that much of my negativity stems from comparison, though.

 

"Chaos" for IW always meant the daemon in the machine, the merging of flesh and iron, hacking away uncontrolled mutations like the cancer they are and replacing them with the cold effectiveness of steel. The tragedy of what hope would become. No reverence, only hatred and bitterness. No cult but obliteration. Slave engines of mass destruction. Utopia shattered and burnt. Dehumanization.

 

I can't see GW's new vision of chaos being anything like that, a clichee of the mustache-twirling villain lured into a mephistophelian pact by his own vanity and the comic relief of mentally impaired henchmen undoing their master's agenda. Xenos marines with blunted spikes and worse gear, designed only for dying in droves to the self-righteous wrath of the posterboys in green, red and blue, easily broken with the usual bit of heroic efford and sent running for the hills after a failed morale check - It's cinematic.

 

Where is the horror of the immaterium, the dread of the arch-enemy when they shall know no fear?

[Lepaca]

"Chaos" for IW always meant the daemon in the machine, the merging of flesh and iron, hacking away uncontrolled mutations like the cancer they are and replacing them with the cold effectiveness of steel. The tragedy of what hope would become. No reverence, only hatred and bitterness. No cult but obliteration. Slave engines of mass destruction. Utopia shattered and burnt. Dehumanization.

 

I can't see GW's new vision of chaos being anything like that, a clichee of the mustache-twirling villain lured into a mephistophelian pact by his own vanity and the comic relief of mentally impaired henchmen undoing their master's agenda. Xenos marines with blunted spikes and worse gear, designed only for dying in droves to the self-righteous wrath of the posterboys in green, red and blue, easily broken with the usual bit of heroic efford and sent running for the hills after a failed morale check - It's cinematic.

 

Where is the horror of the immaterium, the dread of the arch-enemy when they shall know no fear?

 

You nailed it - very cinematically, too!

[Kol Saresk]

I agree with you. Unfortunately, GW is gunning for the younger crowd an that inevitably means less grimdark and more lollipops.

 

My point is that you seem hung up on "Legion." The Legions are dead. And the ones from Forgeworld are likely to have a different feel than from what you are looking for. Yet you are running to them for the "Legion." I was just thinking that maybe never Chaos that you were looking for, but the Legion. Now it doesn't necessarily have to be pre-Chaos, it could be(going from what you said in your first paragraph) that you are looking for when the 40k Iron Warriors first stepped on the path towards Chaos and were still Legion since GW is hellbent on there being virtually no Legions in 40k.

[Antarius]

Nehekhare, have you ever considered that maybe what you were looking for wasn't Chaos but was the pre-Chaos Legion?

 

I don't think so, and I am eagerly awaiting HH book II for more daemonic dark mechanicum allies. I want a working set of rules that allows me to adaequately play my vision on the table. I do have to admit that much of my negativity stems from comparison, though.

 

"Chaos" for IW always meant the daemon in the machine, the merging of flesh and iron, hacking away uncontrolled mutations like the cancer they are and replacing them with the cold effectiveness of steel. The tragedy of what hope would become. No reverence, only hatred and bitterness. No cult but obliteration. Slave engines of mass destruction. Utopia shattered and burnt. Dehumanization.

 

I can't see GW's new vision of chaos being anything like that, a clichee of the mustache-twirling villain lured into a mephistophelian pact by his own vanity and the comic relief of mentally impaired henchmen undoing their master's agenda. Xenos marines with blunted spikes and worse gear, designed only for dying in droves to the self-righteous wrath of the posterboys in green, red and blue, easily broken with the usual bit of heroic efford and sent running for the hills after a failed morale check - It's cinematic.

 

Where is the horror of the immaterium, the dread of the arch-enemy when they shall know no fear?

Seriously though, a whole lot of that is how you tell the story. I am a bit grumpy regarding the current state of 40K fluff myself, but when I look through my collection of Chaos stuff it's not like everything was golden back in (e.g.) 2nd edition either. The Iron Warriors you speak of in your post can just as easily be the "truth" today as the "Silly Chaos LOLOLOL"-stuff. That's a matter of personal perspective, more than anything else.

 

As for the rules, I think Chaos does potentially pack a lot of punch in this edition. And I don't think you need to cede a lof of fluff-ground to get at it either.

 

Also, "they" have never known fear.

But we can teach them...

[darknightdrako]

Plague Marines can also be used as Marines with Bionic Implants/Augments. Although that is also another degree of "counts as". Next game I'm planning to have three 7 man plague squads with fist/meltas and two 7 man plague squads with fist/plasmas and three vindicators all in 1750 and just rush up the board. Very IW themed (although sucks against flyers haha) But yeah would also be nice to have an FA 13 dreadnoughts and drop pods. Best thing to do is find a dex that will make you happy.

[Beachymike123]

when i started this thread all i was looking for was really just a bit of input really from those who use/used alternative lists and any success they had. thank you to everyone who has given me suggestions, especially those who have suggested FW lists which seem much more viable. and thank you for those with criticisms as well - there will be issues with WYSIWYG/counts-as that i will have to bear in mind. i think i'll use one of these lists (vraks siege list seems to catch my eye but maybe tyrant's legion as allies too for cannon fodder and the MotF character) but i also want to see what HH:B2 will give us in the way of dark mechanicus forces.

[Nehekhare]

@leinmann: glad I could help :tu:

 

@darknightdrako: very true, I did that for 2 editions.

 

@antarius: I always considered the real art to be able to combine a cool story with effective rules. doesn't work for me with this dex.

 

@kol: IW still are one of the most coherent traitor legions, but you're right in that I definately prefer the "true" IV over the new face of "honsou's warband". I had fun with the IA IW and even counts-as during the gavdex. I liked grimdark, it's what makes 40k for me. Wouldn't call that "hung up", though. I see no need to give up on what you like just because the powers that be move away from it.

[Excessus]

@kol: IW still are one of the most coherent traitor legions, but you're right in that I definately prefer the "true" IV over the new face of "honsou's warband". I had fun with the IA IW and even counts-as during the gavdex. I liked grimdark, it's what makes 40k for me. Wouldn't call that "hung up", though. I see no need to give up on what you like just because the powers that be move away from it.

Even if they are one of the more coherent legions, they are still divided into a bunch of warbands with different motives and agendas. If you are going to HH for the 'daemon in the machine' I think you are going to be dissapointed with the second book at least. The heresy has just started, the IW has just destroyed Olympia and are no 'over the edge' yet when it comes to the daemonic and chaotic.

 

Question for you, if you are going to use counts-as anyway, why not use counts-as from the CSM codex? Don't like the GW daemon engines, convert your own?

[Nehekhare]

I think you are going to be dissapointed with the second book at least.

2nd book will focus on the istvaan V massacre and feature dark mechanicum (as mentioned in the novel fulgrim), while IW get their own characters and special rules in book 3. I have a working generic legion army list right now that is fluffy and fun to play and there is more to come. It's not perfect but overall way better than anything C:CSM can offer.

 

why not use counts-as from the CSM codex? Don't like the GW daemon engines, convert your own?

my dilemma isn't the models (I even use a dakkafiend as a contemptor dread in my legion list), but the rules. To have an effective army, I'd have to field units that I do not like (most FA choices), while the units I like (oblits, warpsmith) don't have good rules, and a balance between the two would be done better with other codices. After 2 months trying, I could not compose a list I like out of this dex if my life depended on it.

[Excessus]

Ah, so we are down to good old fotm codex jumping? Are you going with the necron codex or gk codex? :)

 

But in seriousness though. You have converted dark mechanicus, but not for the fast slot? I bet there are tons of things you could build to represent the FA units that you want...because according to GW, the CSM codex is the proper way to represent IW with...

[Nehekhare]

Ah, so we are down to good old fotm codex jumping? Are you going with the necron codex or gk codex? :P

 

both actually, and more. I own approximately 3000 points of necrons since their 2002 codex and a buttload (combined with my IW it's a 15,000pts apoc force) of adeptus mechanicus models that I fielded over the years as IG, chaos daemons and even GK ("magos" coteaz + plasma servitors in stalker chimeras) <_<

you may get the theme when you see that my loyalist army is iron hands...

 

according to GW, the CSM codex is the proper way to represent IW with...

What's with this belief in authorities?

[Excessus]

What's with this belief in authorities?

It's not a belief in authorities(that would be very un-Alpha-Legion of me, now wouldn't it?), it's more the fact that it is their fluff/IP, and all stories that are coming out will reflect that. If you diverge on some off-pist fluff for your own army, things might be disappointing in the future depending on what stories they roll out from BL. Then again, it's a big universe, and I suspect that somewhere, sometime there is a warband that is just like yours...but I still think they should be realised through the C:CSM. Themed armies won't be as powerful as non-themed armies, we know this already, you have to use "counts-as" to prevail in a competitive environment if you decide to do it...with whatever codex you choose in the end...

 

 

...and oh, yes, I see a theme there, I definitely do! Heck I run themed armies myself(AL & TS), self imposed restrictions is more awesome! :P

[Nehekhare]

To each his own, though I bet you'd like to have infiltrating chosen and some psy-powers back.

I'm not worried about restrictions, I'm worried about representation. GW gives a damn about the paint-schemes-formerly-known-as-legions as long as space marines sell.