Feud between Guilliman and Alpharius

[Kol Saresk]

Wouldn't the Ultramarines having a fiefdom of 500 worlds that actively supported the Legion be a benefit too? I don't get the resistance. Besides, doesn't one of the fleet-based Second Founding Successors have an obligation of patrolling worlds that were but no longer are under the Ultramarines protection? So wouldn't be plausible to think that the 400 of the 500 worlds that weren't consumed by the Ruinstorm were simply given over to the Successors?

[Legatus]

But that's not the point - you cherrpick what retcons you tolerate - and you dance around the accusation that the only reason you consider Rogue Trader invalid (while trying to disguise it, naturally) is that in the original fluff, before it was retconned (which is what you claim to HATE HATE HATE), Ultramarines were not a first founding chapter.

 

Oh, THAT retcon? That is all-okay!

But... the Ultramarines were already described as First Founding during the run of Rogue Trader.

 

And I pointed out that Rogue Trader lore has existed for a mere 3 years before it was already heavily rewritten during the run of 1st Edition, while we had 20 years of the "2nd Edition lore". That is not really "dancing around the issue", that is presenting reasonable arguments. (Seriously, arguing that the early couple of years of Rogue Trader are the "real" 40K background as opposed to the 20 years of our current continuity is like saying Christopher Pike is the "real" Captain of the Enterprise, as opposed to James Tiberius Kirk...)

 

Plus, expressing dislike for changes to the lore is a personal preference. I am generally not saying that the Thunderwolf Cavalry, the Sanguiniary Guard, Vanguard Veterans, etc. are not "canonical". I am saying that they are stupid, diminishing the integrity of the faction and the viability of other units and factions, and were drawn up purely to sell further model kits, but I don't think I have ever argued that they are not canonical. They are in the current Codices, after all. What I will continue to argue is that only the game sourcebooks are relevant in describing the game lore, while additional material that is published by a subsidiary of Games Workshop and is released only to a smaller and restricted audience has much less, perhaps even no canonical relevance.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually if you want to use a Star Trek analogy, Pike would have been the real Captain of the Enterprise. He served aboard it as its commander and then he suffered a serious injury that saw him removed from command. But he was a Captain of the Enterprise. And he served a lot longer than the 30 minutes he got in the new movie. Kirk just happens to be the most well known captain of the Enterprise but even then, there was still another Captain of the Enterprise who was in command of it after Kirk was promoted to admiral, and that was Willard Decker. Then of course, there are the captains of the Enterprise B, C, D and E which is another 3 captains. Oh, and let's not forget the Enterprise NX-01 which was captained by Jonathan Archer. So in order to say that there was only one real captain of the Enterprise, well for one it would have to be an incarnation other than NC1701 since that one had at least three Captains who were all the real captains of the Enterprise -until they were either injured or, well I'm not sure if Decker is dead or partly responsible for creating the borg- and even then, if you leave the incarnation unspecified, well ouch.

 

But that and all of this is currently off-topic.

[Captain Semper]

BL, FW and GW share the same IP and yet there are discrepancies between them. There are also discrepancies between sources of the same origin. Also there is no official established seniority between the different sources of lore. How one prioritizes canonical sources is compeltely subjective and a matter of personal preference (as Legatus said).

 

Canon in the 40k context is a "soft" not "hard" concept. Ignoring or playing down the background one dislikes is what everybody's doing in various degrees.

 

Now I sense the temprature rising here, let's keep it cool, OK?

[Pavement Artist]

Can I still dislike them? Remark how they are contrary to the character of the Chapter? Rejoice that they were not included in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines?

 

Absolutely, i still feel you need to roll with the punches with regards to changes to canon mate.

 

The entire IP has been steadily reinventing itself for 25 years. Admittedly not to the degree that the setting changed from Rogue trader to 2nd, but it still happens. Look at the necrons, that was a fairly significant overhaul of their background.

 

It seems to me that the HH novels are impacting on the game much more significantly now, what with the anathame being in the chaos dex and what not. I wouldn't be surprised if the next space marine codex readjusted its background to include new larger Ultramar.

[Legatus]

It seems to me that the HH novels are impacting on the game much more significantly now, what with the anathame being in the chaos dex and what not. I wouldn't be surprised if the next space marine codex readjusted its background to include new larger Ultramar.

That is entirely possible. And you will likely see me lamenting about it. But I wont have the excuse that it is secondary material then.

 

To steer this back on topic a bit: I also did not particularly like the material presented in the Alpha Legion Index Astartes, as I have explained extensively in the second post in this thread. It seems that for now there is no apparent feud between Guilliman and Alpharius in the Horus Heresy series. At least Alpharius has not been given any particular motivation to go for Guilliman. The Battle on Eskrador may not actually happen in the Horus Heresy series' continuity. But if any of the authors remembers it, and thought that it was a cool bit, it may happen regardles of a lack of motivation.

[Kol Saresk]

now, what with the anathame being in the chaos dex and what not.

Technically that's unconfirmed. :)

[Pavement Artist]

It seems to me that the HH novels are impacting on the game much more significantly now, what with the anathame being in the chaos dex and what not. I wouldn't be surprised if the next space marine codex readjusted its background to include new larger Ultramar.

That is entirely possible. And you will likely see me lamenting about it. But I wont have the excuse that it is secondary material then.

 

To steer this back on topic a bit: I also did not particularly like the material presented in the Alpha Legion Index Astartes, as I have explained extensively in the second post in this thread. It seems that for now there is no apparent feud between Guilliman and Alpharius in the Horus Heresy series. At least Alpharius has not been given any particular motivation to go for Guilliman. The Battle on Eskrador may not actually happen in the Horus Heresy series' continuity. But if any of the authors remembers it, and thought that it was a cool bit, it may happen regardles of a lack of motivation.

 

Agreed. As of now, the only hint of it is mentioned by Alpharius in "Legion" where he says Guilliman despises him and he in turn ignores him. Now we obviously don't know what else the series has in store, but for now that doesn't suggest Alpharius is gunning for Roboute. If anything, it comes across as very dismissive, like he couldn't care less about him.

[DarkChaplain]

Okay, I might be a bit late (being sick is extremely annoying), but I just thought I'd mention the following:

 

Most independent booksellers offer TWO versions of Black Library novels for sale, often with slight price differences.

One is being ordered from Black Library, the other edition from Games Workshop, which is thus often listed as the Publisher on those storepages. So there's that.

 

Then there is the fact that GW sells BL novels, at least recent releases and popular stuff like the Heresy or Eisenhorn the Gaunt's Ghosts via their own website. Yes, they do. And yes, there should be no real trouble picking those books up in person via a GW store, and I'd assume the bigger ones will also sell the monthly releases in store in most cases.

I remember hearing that ordering Forgeworld or Black Library releases into a store would be no problem at all (although according to the email support of GW Germany, getting BL's Direct Exclusives ordered in isn't possible for some obscure reason).

 

Now, I haven't bought a White Dwarf since the dark summer of 2009, but on page 12 of my copy of the german WD 160 (April 2009) three Black Library novels are being advertised (Ben Counter's Hellforged, Nick Kyme's Honourkeeper and Tales of Heresy). Above the descriptions and covers of those three is a framed box describing those books as Quellbücher, which is quite literally Sourcebooks. Then follows a list of ways to get these books, be it from independent retailers or, in fact, GW's mail order or stores.

 

Oh, and right next to this BL-dedicated page is one for Forgeworld advertising their Thunderhawk. The infobox here states that only a few selected stores sell them directly and ordering them into your german store wasn't possible, so you'd need to order online.

 

So, would not that alone already show that GW approves greatly of those subsidiary products? The WD ads for BL and FW have been around from my first issue which was the german 103 til... well, they probably still are in current WDs. GW is very supportive of the other two branches that are allowed to shape the IP and create new parts within it, and the GW Overlords are involved here and there as well.

 

That being said, I really can't understand how one could be as dismissive of this side of the IP as Legatus is up there.

 

----------------------

 

As for the rumored Anathame weapon... No, I really doubt the Murder Sword is the Anathame. That is probably even more unlikely than the Black Mace having been cursed by each of the Daemon Primarchs. And aside from the silliness of giving the bane of Horus to some random Warband-leading dude, the weapon was made by the Kinebrach. It is a weapon crafted by Xenos with a taste for Chaos. We all can guess how many of those have been purged during the Great Crusade alone, and are probably still around somewhere. Just because the Interex got flattened there might still be a couple other races in the galaxy that might be capable of crafting devastating chaos weapons - even men or astartes could do that, with the right knowledge.

[Kol Saresk]

There's that and at least my LGS is also selling some of the newer Direct-to-order BL products. That's how I got my hands on my copies of Angel Exterminatus and Betrayer. But the manager said that he was no longer selling Forgeworld though. I didn't ask if it was still possible to order and I don't know if it was something from GW or something from Forgeworld or his personal preference though.

 

The bit about the online suppliers getting BL books from Black Library and GW is rather interesting. I don't think I've ever noticed it because I always go into the independent retailer's store rather than look at the website.

 

I agree on the Murder Sword being the anathame, it was just something they put into the weapon's description that "some believe it to be the anathame." Although since the Shard of Erebus showed similar capabilities and function, it is more than possible that Erebus stole more than one as nothing said that it was the only one the Kinebrach made.

[Excessus]

Less talk about the crappy legion and more talk about the awesome legion! :D

 

Comeon guys, focus on what's important...ie the Alpha Legion ofc!

 

 

 

Hydra Dominatus!

[Legatus]

Okay, I might be a bit late (being sick is extremely annoying), but I just thought I'd mention the following:

 

Most independent booksellers offer TWO versions of Black Library novels for sale, often with slight price differences.

One is being ordered from Black Library, the other edition from Games Workshop, which is thus often listed as the Publisher on those storepages. So there's that.

 

[Description of how one might obtain BL/FW material if one lives in germany and speaks english.]

 

That being said, I really can't understand how one could be as dismissive of this side of the IP as Legatus is up there.

On the GW site you can select from 19 different locations (US, UK, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Spain, Sweden), so I assume that is where GW products are officially sold. On the Black Library page there are sections for france and germany. I guess it is possible that independent publishers translate and distribute the Black Library material in the other countries, but for the moment I am not aware of that. Forge World only publishes their material in english, as far as I know. And at least in germany you would have to order it from the UK. I think the US has its own stock of Forgeworld material, but I am not sure about the other countries.

 

So, of course I would have no problem ordering Forgeworld or Black Library material from the UK. That's what I have done the past few years, even though there are now german translations of the Black Library books available. But what about a 14 year old boy from poland or spain? Can they order material from the UK that easily? And will they be able to read it? I am not sure. I don't know how common english as a secondary language is in other european countries. Assuming that it is not that common, does that mean that the "real" background is reserved for the more privileged Warhammer 40,000 enthusiasts, while the younger non-english speaking hobbyists have to put up with the "outdated" material?

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, I might be a bit late (being sick is extremely annoying), but I just thought I'd mention the following:

 

Most independent booksellers offer TWO versions of Black Library novels for sale, often with slight price differences.

One is being ordered from Black Library, the other edition from Games Workshop, which is thus often listed as the Publisher on those storepages. So there's that.

 

[Description of how one might obtain BL/FW material if one lives in germany and speaks english.]

 

That being said, I really can't understand how one could be as dismissive of this side of the IP as Legatus is up there.

On the GW site you can select from 19 different locations (US, UK, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Spain, Sweden), so I assume that is where GW products are officially sold. On the Black Library page there are sections for france and germany. I guess it is possible that independent publishers translate and distribute the Black Library material in the other countries, but for the moment I am not aware of that. Forge World only publishes their material in english, as far as I know. And at least in germany you would have to order it from the UK. I think the US has its own stock of Forgeworld material, but I am not sure about the other countries.

 

So, of course I would have no problem ordering Forgeworld or Black Library material from the UK. That's what I have done the past few years, even though there are now german translations of the Black Library books available. But what about a 14 year old boy from poland or spain? Can they order material from the UK that easily? And will they be able to read it? I am not sure. I don't know how common english as a secondary language is in other european countries. Assuming that it is not that common, does that mean that the "real" background is reserved for the more privileged Warhammer 40,000 enthusiasts, while the younger non-english speaking hobbyists have to put up with the "outdated" material?

Then there is the fact that GW sells BL novels, at least recent releases and popular stuff like the Heresy or Eisenhorn the Gaunt's Ghosts via their own website. Yes, they do. And yes, there should be no real trouble picking those books up in person via a GW store, and I'd assume the bigger ones will also sell the monthly releases in store in most cases.

There's that and at least my LGS is also selling some of the newer Direct-to-order BL products. That's how I got my hands on my copies of Angel Exterminatus and Betrayer.

 

Now, while I can't comment on the note of translation of BL material, I would like to mention that I know someone from a different forum from Finland who seems to have some access to Black Library material. Although whether it be the actual books and he has to read them in English or if he is even just getting what he knows from the Lexicanum, I know not but some of what he says is rather detailed to have come from a second hand source, so I'm betting on him reading the books, I just don't know if he has to do it in English or not.

 

Oh, I forgot. Lexicanum is a good way to get secondhand information on the BL material. And there are ebooks now too. They may not always do synopsis for each one but the information is always put into any related categories.

 

Oh, and let's not forget that not all of the members of this very forum are english speakers and I doubt all of the ones who read BL novels are contained to the UK, the US, France and Germany and since the Forum requires everything to be in English, they are overcoming the language barrier somehow, even if it is just Google Translate. So I imagine that while it would be a royal pain in the rear for them to read the books in English, it's not impossible and since they have to read us typing in English, they can probably use it as a learning experience to at least them read and write English even if it can't help them speak it.

[Legatus]

Oh, and let's not forget that not all of the members of this very forum are english speakers and I doubt all of the ones who read BL novels are contained to the UK, the US, France and Germany and since the Forum requires everything to be in English, they are overcoming the language barrier somehow, even if it is just Google Translate. So I imagine that while it would be a royal pain in the rear for them to read the books in English, it's not impossible and since they have to read us typing in English, they can probably use it as a learning experience to at least them read and write English even if it can't help them speak it.

I am pretty sure a lot of people around the world can speak some degree of english. I am not sure everyone does, though. It is a mandatory secondary language taught in german schools (though I have heard of some schools who offer the option to learn french instead), but that does not mean that every graduate is fluent. But as far as I know that is not the same in other european countries. I remember the stereotype that the french, spanish and italians will only rarely speak a different language, but that may be outdated. I am certain the internet has had some influence in making english much more attractive and accessible to younger generations. But I would not automatically assume that a teenager from finland or poland is fluent or even has a basic familiarity in english. (Those that participate in english online forums obviously do.)

[Wade Garrett]

Less fighting over whether Forgeworld, Black Library, or Games Workshop canon is the most canony canonest canon, more discussion of the XIII and XX Legions, please?

 

It's interesting to me that Guilliman's strength is stated to be the reshaping of his conquests into compliant territories. The only other Legions who seemed just as concerned with "winning the peace" were the Night Lords and the Word Bearers, and in both their cases it was counted a weakness, with both of their Legions sanctioned because Lorgar's efforts winning hearts and minds bogged his section of the Crusade down, while Curze...there are some mentions that planets captured by the VIII were models of compliance and remained so for centuries, but it was felt the price paid in crucified babies was a bit high.

 

How did Rob do it? Lorgar's "soft" methods took too long to be viable, and Curze went too far even for the Great "Liberation of Human Worlds from the Tyranny of Xenos, Chaos, and Planetary Rulers Who Don't Surrender To the Emperor Fast Enough".

 

Was it merely a combination of splitting the difference and, of course, Roboute Guilliman's innate mastery of logistics, which was beyond even most transhuman minds?

[Legatus]

Well, for one, Guilliman attempted to take worlds with a minimum of collateral damage. The Night Lords would often use excessive force to get their message accross, while the Word Bearer' doctrine is not sufficiently described to compare them. What Guilliman then did was leave behind advisors that would oversee the construction of relevant industry and capable defenses, while he continued on with his Legion. Each world also acted as a node in his growing supply network. This was described in the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, though was sadly one of the minor bits omitted in the 5th Edition reprinting. The 2nd Edition Codex also states that this method allowed Guilliman to conquer worlds faster than any other Legion (and this was right at the beginning of his conquests, before the Legion had grown), which I allways understood to mean that the Ultramarines never had to wait to be reinforced and resupplied (due to the elaborate supply lines) and never had to return to a world they had already liberated to defend them from new threats like alien raiders or hidden cults* (due to the well established defenses and overall productivity and prosperity of the population). The Ultramarines were not defeating their opposition faster, they simply never had to stop or double back. They were able to continue onwards where other Legions might have seen downtime or complications.**

 

As far as I have understood the Word Bearers background, Lorgar, and perhaps the elements of his Legion with him, was personally overseeing the construction of temples and monuments on the worlds he conquered. This was slowing down his progress, while not really contributing much to the productivity or usefulness of the world to the rest of the Imperium.

 

The Night Lords were not censured for being too slow or for threatening worlds into compliance. They were about to be recalled and censured by the Emperor after Curze went nuts and first destroyed Nostramo and then cut a bloody swathe through the Imperium. That is not really compareable to what the Ultramarines or the Word Bearers were doing.

 

 

Edit: *In comparison, the Index Astartes of the Luna Wolves describes that the Legion would often hurry on to the next world as soon as the military of a previous world was defeated, leaving behind worlds without defenses and with damaged industrys and infrastructure, since they saw their mission only in battle, not in rebuilding the worlds. As a result, it was not uncommon that further rebellions would flare up on worlds the Luna Wolves had just conquered.

 

**This is perhaps in part based on the ancient roman theme of the Ultramarines Legion. The Romans were famous for bulding roads and infrastructure between the villages and cities they conquered, which allowed them to quicker move large armies and equipment around than it would have been on field paths.

[Wade Garrett]

Interesting...so one of the key factors in Rob's succcess was the (I assume non Astartes) network of civil engineers and military advisors he relied on to rebuild and manage the conquered territories, somewhat similar to the way the Alpha Legion uses non Astartes spies and infiltrators to pull off their greatest coupes.

 

As for Lorgar...in The First Heretic the Emperor's rebuke specifically states that he and his Legion linger on already conquered worlds, shaping cults and churches. If he'd had a support staff of reliable non Astartes missionaries comparable to Rob's administrators or Alpharius's agents, the Heresy might have gone very differently. Not to mention that a "conversion" type reshaping of the sort the XVII liked is by necessity a lot longer or a lot bloodier than a "compliance" as enforced by historic Rome or the Ultramarines.

("Pray to whomever you wish,as long as you pay your tithes of coin and manpower to the Empire on time).

 

And I thought Curze was already in hot water before he razed Nostromo, since he'd attacked Dorm when the Siege Master confronted him about the Night Lord excesses. Although that comes from Black Library novels and short stories.

[Kol Saresk]

And I thought Curze was already in hot water before he razed Nostromo, since he'd attacked Dorm when the Siege Master confronted him about the Night Lord excesses. Although that comes from Black Library novels and short stories.

I don't think that's entirely true though. I always seem to remember it as Curze attacked Dorn and was supposed to be brought in for questioning but then the Heresy broke out so it didn't happen. The only new part that I recall is that the Night Lords were sent to Istvaan V.

[KarkassBC]

And I thought Curze was already in hot water before he razed Nostromo, since he'd attacked Dorm when the Siege Master confronted him about the Night Lord excesses. Although that comes from Black Library novels and short stories.

I don't think that's entirely true though. I always seem to remember it as Curze attacked Dorn and was supposed to be brought in for questioning but then the Heresy broke out so it didn't happen. The only new part that I recall is that the Night Lords were sent to Istvaan V.

 

Except that in the story Curze crushed to pieces the group of EC and IF astartes around his tent. And they didn't recovered from the injuries (they were dead) as Dorn.

 

And after the NL departed to destroy their homeplanet, chased by a IF fleet.

 

BTW this was one of the reason that I always doubt about the loyalist plan at Istvaan V. Keeping a troublesome units in your back it's never a good move.

[DarkChaplain]

It was stated in... lemme check...

The Outcast Dead:

 

‘Something bothers you regarding the coming battle? Aside

from the obvious, I mean.’

‘The primarch of the VIII Legion,’ said Sarashina.

‘I hear from the Raven Guard that he is reunited with his warriors.’

‘Exactly, but Lord Dorn was adamant that we not send the fleet assembly orders for the Isstvan expedition to Konrad Curze, only to the Night Lords Chapters stationed within the Sol system.’

‘And this has caused alarm within the palace?’ said Zhi-Meng, more to himself than Sarashina. ‘That a primarch rejoins his Legion?’

‘To say the least,’ said Sarashina. ‘No one seems to know where Curze has been since the Cheraut compliance.’

‘Lord Dorn knows, though he will not say,’ replied Zhi-Meng, ‘He bade me send a message to Lords Vulkan and Corax.’

‘What kind of message?’

‘I do not know,’ said Zhi-Meng. ‘It was composed in a manner unknown to me, some form of battle-cant known only to the Emperor’s sons. I can only hope it reaches them in time.

 

So there's that. Curze himself was not intended to be involved in Isstvan V, yet could not be prevented from joining in.

 

And yes, Curze was getting into arguments with Dorn about his methods of reaching Compliance, but it was not actually an active decision to attack Rogal - that happened while he was having visions of the Heresy.

He was incarcerated, guarded by members of Fulgrim's Phoenix Guard, which he killed during his breakout. He was supposed to be sent to Terra for being judged, and obviously he did not like the thought, so he refused, took control again and then blew up Nostramo Quintus shortly after.

 

------------------

 

By the way, I don't see what the localization of Black Library material has to do with GW supporting it as part of their overall IPs. I've read maybe a dozen BL novels in german, of which the publisher for the Fantasy range did a decent job while the 40k localizations didn't bother sticking with official terms and went as far as to translate chapter names and ranks - because the rank of Captain is utterly oblivious to people interested in the Scifi genre, right? Even novel titles are often stating the complete opposite.

Anyway, that was in 2008/early09, and I've filled my shelves with the originals from Black Library since. While I personally order them via independent retailers due to neat prices and lack of shipping costs, every new release that is not digital or direct exclusive can be bought from the GERMAN GW webstore just fine. In english, probably also in german once they start publishing their own localizations (I dearly hope they didn't take over that rat who ruined 40k novels so far).

 

Just for the record, GW NEVER advertised the german copies in White Dwarves, not even in 2008 or 09. They ALWAYS showed the new releases from Black Library. Until now the german range of Black Library novels has been completely separate from GW. Two publishers got the licenses for them and did their (bad) work as a result. GW did not point you to those publications in any way.

 

Yes, I am living in Germany, my first language was german and my english was more based on personal interests and willingness to step out of the door than lessons in school. There are plenty of people like that, and it is safe to say that people with exotic hobbies like tabletop games will be much more likely to have made the effort to learn english to communicate online than people who are satisfied with more accessible hobbies. To claim that nobody outside the UK or US reads Black Library publications since they're written in english is incredibly naive.

[Captain Idaho]

This topic is for the discussion of the feud between Guilliman and Alpharius and the discussion for the last couple of pages has included Night Haunter, Lorgar and GW IP but little relevance to the mission statement of the topic.

 

To steer the topic back on track, I'd like to point out the feud doesn't seem to exist in the Heresy series at present. It's mentioned more like one Primarch disliking another.

 

I'd be interested to see it expanded but it's sure to be difficult since there is already a pretty big feud between Guilliman and Lorgar right now!

 

The Index Astartes Alpha Legion is looking more and more out of sync with the real story of the Heresy (whether you like to include them or not). A little victory for those who disputed it when in first came out in the face of anti-Ultras sentiment that just couldn't be swayed (though originally it's obvious anyway when you consider the contradictions within anyway).

[Legatus]

The Index Astartes article of the Alpha Legion was already out of sync with the other articles back when it was first published, for the reasons I have described in post #2. But somehow I expect that the Black Library will include that battle on Eskrador anyway.

 

 

To claim that nobody outside the UK or US reads Black Library publications since they're written in english is incredibly naive.

Yeah, it is, isn't it? Did anybody claim that?

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, I was talking about before the current series guys. That's why I put on the little bit "The only new thing."

[Lepaca]

Yes, I am living in Germany, my first language was german and my english was more based on personal interests and willingness to step out of the door than lessons in school. There are plenty of people like that, and it is safe to say that people with exotic hobbies like tabletop games will be much more likely to have made the effort to learn english to communicate online than people who are satisfied with more accessible hobbies. To claim that nobody outside the UK or US reads Black Library publications since they're written in english is incredibly naive.

 

Same here. I'd NEVER consider reading BL novels in German.

[Wade Garrett]

Iiii-dee-ahh!

 

Eskrador wasn't the culmination of the Heresy era XX and XIII feud...it was the kick off of the modern day Alpha Legion vs Ultramarines and all Guilliman successors grudge.

 

We know that there's bad blood between the sons of Guilliman and the Twins (see "The Long Games at Carcharias" short story) but so far there has been no justification for it in the Heresy novels. Rob is too busy with Imperium Secundus, writing the Codex, and hating Lorgar (who is in my opinion a much better foil for the Master of Maccrage, but that's off topic) while Alpharius is wrapped up in his secret plan to {censored} which will allow him to =redacted by order of the Inquisition= resulting in *transmission corrupted we are the ever changing reflection in the mirror of war we are the one who stands against many we are one i am one I am A#corruption ends*.

 

As it stands, they aren't even on each other's radar. A major battle, where Rob discovers one of the Alpha Legion's main supply bases by using his logistical skills to note discrepancies in the region's shipping and industrial output, then brings a large section of the Legion to open battle (strength of the Ultramarines, not the AL) and then kills Alpharius...or Omegon, or Sheed Ranko, some important Alpha Legionaire, would certainly leave the Alphas with an axe to grind, and possibly a bit of an inferiority complex concerning the Ultras.