Feud between Guilliman and Alpharius

[Lepaca]

Rob is too busy with Imperium Secundus, writing the Codex, and hating Lorgar (who is in my opinion a much better foil for the Master of Maccrage, but that's off topic)

Even though it's off topic I share your opinion! ^_^

 

While Alpharius is wrapped up in his secret plan to {censored} which will allow him to =redacted by order of the Inquisition= resulting in *transmission corrupted we are the ever changing reflection in the mirror of war we are the one who stands against many we are one i am one I am A#corruption ends*.

Made my day! :lol:

 

As it stands, they aren't even on each other's radar. A major battle, where Rob discovers one of the Alpha Legion's main supply bases by using his logistical skills to note discrepancies in the region's shipping and industrial output, then brings a large section of the Legion to open battle (strength of the Ultramarines, not the AL) and then kills Alpharius...or Omegon, or Sheed Ranko, some important Alpha Legionaire, would certainly leave the Alphas with an axe to grind, and possibly a bit of an inferiority complex concerning the Ultras.

Quite possibly true. It remains to be seen how much of the post-Terra war the BL books will cover.

[Kol Saresk]

Well the Warmaster Chronicles will cover at least some of the Inter-Legion wars in the Eye of Terror.

[KarkassBC]

Well the Warmaster Chronicles will cover at least some of the Inter-Legion wars in the Eye of Terror.

 

Except AL because they didn't retreat in the Eye after the fall of Horus.

[Excessus]

Remember though, any information of Eskrador is higly doubtful since the inquisitor reporting about it is suspected to be an Alpha Legion agent...

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kravin#.UOMtbnfW5QE

[Octavulg]

The whole rigid vs flexibility thing can actually be quite sensible and still have the Codex be reasonable by looking at the character of Guilliman, which also addresses the whole "Ultramarines actually are fairly flexible" thing.

 

First, look at Guilliman's personality (especially as it was portrayed at the time). Guilliman really likes telling people what to do militarily. He is the product of a lifelong military education. He complains about how Horus does things, he complains about how Alpharius does things, and he proposes the Codex be the ultimate source of how to do things militarily for the Space Marines. He likes to codify things. He thinks there is a Way Things Should Be Done. He is, in short, a regular army soldier (and a very, very good one).

 

Alpharius is an irregular (at least compared to Guilliman). And so, of course, each resents the way the other does things.

 

I'd note that the original basis for their dispute (Guilliman suggested Alpharius' legion should be built on the Codex, Alpharius disagreed with Guilliman's tactics) isn't really incompatible with a more liberal Codex. It's still a codified manual of the "right way" of fighting, which isn't the way Alpharius'd do things. The details aren't perfect, but the principles aren't unsound. That may be incompatible with the Heresy timeline, but it's not an unworkable event in and of itself.

 

Or the Black Library and Games Workshop generally are wildly inconsistent with characterization and events. :tu:

 

Also, doing well in the mountains against an inferior force is very different than doing well in the mountains against a force that's more-or-less as capable, numerous and well-equipped as you are.

[Captain Idaho]

Iiii-dee-ahh!

 

Eskrador wasn't the culmination of the Heresy era XX and XIII feud...it was the kick off of the modern day Alpha Legion vs Ultramarines and all Guilliman successors grudge.

 

We know that there's bad blood between the sons of Guilliman and the Twins (see "The Long Games at Carcharias" short story) but so far there has been no justification for it in the Heresy novels. Rob is too busy with Imperium Secundus, writing the Codex, and hating Lorgar (who is in my opinion a much better foil for the Master of Maccrage, but that's off topic) while Alpharius is wrapped up in his secret plan to {censored} which will allow him to =redacted by order of the Inquisition= resulting in *transmission corrupted we are the ever changing reflection in the mirror of war we are the one who stands against many we are one i am one I am A#corruption ends*.

 

As it stands, they aren't even on each other's radar. A major battle, where Rob discovers one of the Alpha Legion's main supply bases by using his logistical skills to note discrepancies in the region's shipping and industrial output, then brings a large section of the Legion to open battle (strength of the Ultramarines, not the AL) and then kills Alpharius...or Omegon, or Sheed Ranko, some important Alpha Legionaire, would certainly leave the Alphas with an axe to grind, and possibly a bit of an inferiority complex concerning the Ultras.

 

Idaho Likes this.

 

Oh that makes much better sense actually.

 

I just had a thought; Alpharius and co have a plan due to come to fruition and Guilliman locates (through his amazing mind) where the logical places Alpharius is amassing his forces for something. Knowing/thinking the Alpha Legion sided against the Emperor, he intervenes and causes havock, ruining the plan.

 

This is logical as we know Guilliman destroys a significant fleet of "Horus' reinforcements", so the twist could be it was actually the Alpha Legion about to enact their own plan. 1-0 to the Ultramarines.

 

So Eskrador becomes an ambush site for vengeance. This time Alpharius knows how Guilliman located his forces so uses it as an opportunity to trap the Ultramarines. 1-0 turns into 1-1.

 

What's great about this is we can have a real tragic twist to the events of the Heresy. Alpharius' plan could save humanity but was thwarted by Guilliman. Guilliman's chance to intervene was subsequently ruined by the Alpha Legion ambush mauling the Legion at Eskrador.

 

Awesome. A D-B needs to contact the BL and get me on the Heresy team! ;)

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Octavulg is totally on-point with that his regular troopers versus irregular troopers comment. Not too long ago in the real world U.S. Military (before the Hollywood and video game glamorization of Special Operations/Special Forces) there was a VERY strong distrust between standard line units and Special Operations forces. If you would have asked alot of officers in regular units at the time they would have probably have said something along the lines of "Special?! What makes them so special?!" and then give a lecture about force-on-force tactics. The SpecOps guys just wouldnt talk to you unless you were in the "club". I could totally see Alfie and Robby G having a disagreement on their tactics and disposition along these lines. Even with a more "liberal" Codex perhaps Robby G thought it dishonorable or underhanded to not bring engagements into a Force-on-Force manner while Alpharius' irregular warfare tactics were thought to be distasteful by Babe The Big Blue Ox. There are nearly no 40k forces who I can think of who operate in an irregular manner with the exception of the Raven Guard as most Space Marine chapters like to bring hostilities face-to-face and in the open.

[Legatus]

First, look at Guilliman's personality (especially as it was portrayed at the time). Guilliman really likes telling people what to do militarily. He is the product of a lifelong military education. He complains about how Horus does things, he complains about how Alpharius does things, and he proposes the Codex be the ultimate source of how to do things militarily for the Space Marines. He likes to codify things. He thinks there is a Way Things Should Be Done. He is, in short, a regular army soldier (and a very, very good one).

Weell, that was a sort of one-sided description. Guilliman had been described in the earliest sources (2nd Edition Codex) as quickly learning everything the wisest men of Macragge could teach him, and once he was introduced to the Imperium, he eagerly absorbed the new wonders and teachings now open to him. He had included at least one of the other Primarch's writings in the Codex Astartes (Perturabo's, mentioned in the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines and the 3rd Edition Imperial Fists Index Astartes), and possibly more (the 1st Edition 'Armies of the Imperium' mentions that Leman Russ, Lion El'Jonson and Imperial Army General Tybor provided "sagely advice"). Guilliman did not just tell others what to do, he was also very open to new ideas and approaches. In case of Horus it was not so much a disagreement with methodologies, more a disagreement about the complete neglect to properly secure a world's compliance once the opposing military had been destroyed.

 

 

Also, doing well in the mountains against an inferior force is very different than doing well in the mountains against a force that's more-or-less as capable, numerous and well-equipped as you are.

I am not sure how superior the pre-imperial Macragge PDF was to the mountain raiders. Neither forces are described. But there had been many attempts by previous generals to pacify the mountainous regions, just never a successful one. So it does not seem that the Macragge PDF had a notable advantage before Guilliman's campaign.

 

 

There are nearly no 40k forces who I can think of who operate in an irregular manner with the exception of the Raven Guard as most Space Marine chapters like to bring hostilities face-to-face and in the open.

The Raven Guard and the Alpha Legion employ their forces terribly ineffectively. With their heavy armour and weaponry, Space Marines are compareable to mega tanks. These mega tanks can be used to swat most opposition aside effortlessly and smash right through them. What those "sneaky" Marine forces are doing is they hide their mega tanks, draw out isolated enemy detachments, or stalk them until they are vulnerable, and then use the mega tanks weapons to shoot them in the back. I guess that is one way to make extra sure that the mega tanks take little fire. And that the mega tanks weapon's hit a weak spot. But in 95% of the cases the mega tank could simply take the fire and his weapons would punch straight through the enemy front, making the entire ordeal to set everything up a big waste of time. But then, that was not how the Raven Guard and the Alpha Legion had been described in their Index Astartes articles. Neither of them really used to employ "stealthy power armoured Marines".

[Captain Idaho]

Also, doing well in the mountains against an inferior force is very different than doing well in the mountains against a force that's more-or-less as capable, numerous and well-equipped as you are.

I am not sure how superior the pre-imperial Macragge PDF was to the mountain raiders. Neither forces are described. But there had been many attempts by previous generals to pacify the mountainous regions, just never a successful one. So it does not seem that the Macragge PDF had a notable advantage before Guilliman's

 

Actually I think Octvalug is making the reasonable conclusion that the Alpha Legion were equal to the Ultramarines (being Space Marines after all) so an ambush in extremely difficult terrain would be a deciding factor for the battle.

[Legatus]

He also made the assumption that Guilliman had previously fought an opposition that had been inferior to his own force. But he was commanding regular Macragge PDF. And it is a reasonable assumption that the Macragge PDF was better equipped and trained than the mountain raiders. But there had been numerous attempts in previous campaigns to pacify the mountain regions, but none had been successful.

[Kol Saresk]

A force is only as strong as its weakest member. If the commanders of that force were inferior to Gulliman, then he could have a statistically inferior force that was tactically superior.

[Legatus]

You probably meant that differently than it came across...

[Marshal Rohr]

Indeed.

[Kol Saresk]

No I think I meant it the way I said it. In real life, it is proven that superior tactics by what would normally be an inferior force whether through equipment(say Light Infantry versus Heavy Armor) or numbers(300 vs 1,000) can dominate the battlefield. So yes, a statiscally inferior force can sometimes be the tactically superior force. Tactics are the application of what you have, not the possession of it.

[Marshal Rohr]

Do you mean numerically inferior? There is no such thing as statistically inferior.

[Legatus]

Exchanging the commander would not remove the force's "weakest member", that's why your remark sounded odd.

 

Edit: Also, if Guilliman could have had fewer number and inferior weapons, but would still have been considered leading a "superior force" simply on the account of him being a much better commander than his opponent, then that somehow defeats teh purpose of even mentioning whether or not Guilliman was fighting a"superior/inferior" force, doesn't it? And would not every victory then mean that, in hindsight, it was fought with a superior force?

[Kol Saresk]

Do you mean numerically inferior? There is no such thing as statistically inferior.

Numerically inferior or even inferior by the equipment each force has. Sorry, statistically was the wording I used because I kept thinking of the game. My apologies.

 

But Legatus, sometimes that is true. A commander could be an idiot who grinds what normally be a superior force filled with well trained soldiers into the dust. But because they have strong senses of loyalty and while disgruntled by the obvious stupidity of their commander, they refuse to disobey his orders or remove him from command. Take that same force, replace the commander with say, Gulliman, Alpharius, Alexander the Great, or any other famous general(fictional or nonfictional) and that superior force could become almost unbeatable. Almost, not entirely.

[Legatus]

Eh, too slow in my editing...

[Kol Saresk]

Do you get what I was saying though?

[EumenesDominatus]

Getting into this thread a little late but oh well, at least I came in on the other side of a pointless argument about canon.

 

Remember though, any information of Eskrador is higly doubtful since the inquisitor reporting about it is suspected to be an Alpha Legion agent...

 

I think this right here is underestimated when it comes to the AL's IA article. We don't know if anything in there is true or just more lies. Maybe some day the truth of Eskrador will come out, but for now the account we have is suspect.

 

At its core the conflict between the UM and AL is a conflict between Conventional and Unconventional Warfare. Yes Guilliman displayed creative thinking when it comes to military tactics and strategy but he still represents conventional warfare when it comes to 40k lore.

[Legatus]

Do you get what I was saying though?

I get that an exceptional commander can easily defeat a larger or better equipped force. But I also think that that was probably not what octy was thinking of when he suggested that Guilliman had won with a superior force against an inferior one. I think there was the distinct assumption that what Guilliman had at his disposal to work with had been superior to what his opposition had.

[Captain Idaho]

Getting into this thread a little late but oh well, at least I came in on the other side of a pointless argument about canon.

 

Remember though, any information of Eskrador is higly doubtful since the inquisitor reporting about it is suspected to be an Alpha Legion agent...

 

I think this right here is underestimated when it comes to the AL's IA article. We don't know if anything in there is true or just more lies. Maybe some day the truth of Eskrador will come out, but for now the account we have is suspect.

 

At its core the conflict between the UM and AL is a conflict between Conventional and Unconventional Warfare. Yes Guilliman displayed creative thinking when it comes to military tactics and strategy but he still represents conventional warfare when it comes to 40k lore.

 

The whole article is best read for entertainment purposes only, with perhaps just a hint of a guide to future plot lines., since from the very start it tells us falsehoods I.e. Alpharius was tall and his Legion were tall like their Primarch.

[Excessus]

Getting into this thread a little late but oh well, at least I came in on the other side of a pointless argument about canon.

 

Remember though, any information of Eskrador is higly doubtful since the inquisitor reporting about it is suspected to be an Alpha Legion agent...

 

I think this right here is underestimated when it comes to the AL's IA article. We don't know if anything in there is true or just more lies. Maybe some day the truth of Eskrador will come out, but for now the account we have is suspect.

 

At its core the conflict between the UM and AL is a conflict between Conventional and Unconventional Warfare. Yes Guilliman displayed creative thinking when it comes to military tactics and strategy but he still represents conventional warfare when it comes to 40k lore.

 

The whole article is best read for entertainment purposes only, with perhaps just a hint of a guide to future plot lines., since from the very start it tells us falsehoods I.e. Alpharius was tall and his Legion were tall like their Primarch.

Though it's said he was only a head taller than the luna wolves when he first encountered them, right? Having marines the same size wouldn't be so spectacular...

 

...and again, speaking of Eskrador, I notice it's absence in the CSM codex(even in the old 4th ed codex which mostly listed defeats). Is it in the SM codex?

[Legatus]

It hasn't been mentioned in another Codex, but it is mentioned in the Deathwatch RPG sourcebook "The First Founding". And I think it was also mentioned in one Black Library novel (not a Horus heresy novel), but I forgot which one. Could have been one of the Salamanders novels? In the Deathwatch book it is described more favourable for the Ultramarines (even though it is descrived in the Alpha Legion section), describing how while the Ultramarines were unable to properly defeat the Alpha Legion at least Guilliman proved to be the better strategist and outmaneuvered Alpharius, resulting in the latter's death. while in the Black Library novel (which is set in the 41st millennium, IIRC) it was mentioned as an infamous defeat of the Ultramarines, known in all surrounding systems ten thousand years later, apparently. (The author was perhaps not a fan...)

[Excessus]

It hasn't been mentioned in another Codex, but it is mentioned in the Deathwatch RPG sourcebook "The First Founding". And I think it was also mentioned in one Black Library novel (not a Horus heresy novel), but I forgot which one. Could have been one of the Salamanders novels? In the Deathwatch book it is described more favourable for the Ultramarines (even though it is descrived in the Alpha Legion section), describing how while the Ultramarines were unable to properly defeat the Alpha Legion at least Guilliman proved to be the better strategist and outmaneuvered Alpharius, resulting in the latter's death. while in the Black Library novel (which is set in the 41st millennium, IIRC) it was mentioned as an infamous defeat of the Ultramarines, known in all surrounding systems ten thousand years later, apparently. (The author was perhaps not a fan...)

The difference between those two stories smells of heresay and misinformation! :P