Feud between Guilliman and Alpharius

[Octavulg]

I get that an exceptional commander can easily defeat a larger or better equipped force. But I also think that that was probably not what octy was thinking of when he suggested that Guilliman had won with a superior force against an inferior one. I think there was the distinct assumption that what Guilliman had at his disposal to work with had been superior to what his opposition had.

 

I meant both. Your average hill tribe is inferior to your average regular army - the men are less disciplined, less well-equipped, etc. However, they have the advantage of being a hill tribe fighting in hills, which counts for a lot. Guilliman's a good enough general to overcome that, but not a good enough general to defeat a force that is effectively equal to his in many ways (and which also likely has leadership that's at least comparable) in that terrain.

[Daemon2027]

The Raven Guard and the Alpha Legion employ their forces terribly ineffectively. With their heavy armour and weaponry, Space Marines are compareable to mega tanks. These mega tanks can be used to swat most opposition aside effortlessly and smash right through them. What those "sneaky" Marine forces are doing is they hide their mega tanks, draw out isolated enemy detachments, or stalk them until they are vulnerable, and then use the mega tanks weapons to shoot them in the back. I guess that is one way to make extra sure that the mega tanks take little fire. And that the mega tanks weapon's hit a weak spot. But in 95% of the cases the mega tank could simply take the fire and his weapons would punch straight through the enemy front, making the entire ordeal to set everything up a big waste of time. But then, that was not how the Raven Guard and the Alpha Legion had been described in their Index Astartes articles. Neither of them really used to employ "stealthy power armoured Marines".

 

I get the impression both the Alpha Legion and the Raven Guard are used to write cool diffrent stories, but this means we just end up seeing them as ultra stealthy sneaky James Bond marines. Which is nice up to a point. However at the end of the day they are both Legions who have a full range of weapons, armour and vehicles (well the RGs may have less post Istvaan V). It's a bit silly because in a large scale battle there is still a chance for sneaky stuff, ambushes, sabatarge ect (hence the Seeker squads in the FW HH list which are said to be introduced by the Alpha Legion).

 

I think Alpherus rivalry with Dorn makes more sense, they are at opposite ends of the tacticle spectrum. Also Guilliman doesn't seem like the guy to hold a grudge over something like over complicated battle strategies. In Betrayer, Logar noted that Guilliman hated (like really hated him) him due to aristocracys his legion had committed at Calth and the other worlds.

 

Hopefully a new Alpha Legion book might backtrack and fill in Alpherus background during the great crusade and maybe build on Alpherus (and thus the Alpha Legion) feelings of inferiority towards the Ultramarines, and maybe show the Legion fight in a larger scale conflict. As much as I enjoyed Legion, I don't think that should be the definition of the Alpha Legion.

[Legatus]

Guilliman's a good enough general to overcome that, but not a good enough general to defeat a force that is effectively equal to his in many ways (and which also likely has leadership that's at least comparable) in that terrain.

Technically, the Alpha Legion was not commanded by a Primarch on Eskrador. Alpharius was terminated in the first clash between the two Legion's forces, and from then on it was a leaderless Alpha Legion (who suddenly increased in competence). At least according to the two accounts of Eskrador that are given (IA:AL and Deathwatch: The First Founding). But maybe tehy were both meant to be faked accounts.

 

 

Hopefully a new Alpha Legion book might backtrack and fill in Alpherus background during the great crusade and maybe build on Alpherus (and thus the Alpha Legion) feelings of inferiority towards the Ultramarines, and maybe show the Legion fight in a larger scale conflict. As much as I enjoyed Legion, I don't think that should be the definition of the Alpha Legion.

It was not generally an inferior complex just directed towards the Ultramarines. In older lore, the Alpha Legion simply wanted to one up everyone else, no matter which Legion. The IA:AL mentions that they were handing stinging defeats to the White Scars and the Space Wolves. The Collected Visions books mention fleet battles between the three Legions, so that might be what that was refering to.

[Daemon2027]

But there must be a reason that the Alpha Legion choose to go after the Ultramarines at Eskrador over any of the other loyalist legions. Although I suppose it could be a matter of proving themselves against the most intact legion. I was under the impression that the Alpha Legion fought both the Space Wolves and White Scars on the ground as well as in space. I think their IA also mentioned actions against other Legions without going into details. Also, I know they were not listed as present at the Siege of Terra but it seems strange that they were not their in some capacity.

[EumenesDominatus]

I can't recall the source but the AL fought the White Scars at Tallarn and the Space wolves at Yarant. And the Siege of Terra was a huge brutal siege battle, it just doesn't seem to fit their MO to participate in that kind of battle. They were better suited to stall and delay the Emperor's reinforcement as we believe they did. Again all sources for information on the Alpha Legion should be considered unreliable.

[Wade Garrett]

The Raven Guard and the Alpha Legion employ their forces terribly ineffectively. With their heavy armour and weaponry, Space Marines are compareable to mega tanks. These mega tanks can be used to swat most opposition aside effortlessly and smash right through them. What those "sneaky" Marine forces are doing is they hide their mega tanks, draw out isolated enemy detachments, or stalk them until they are vulnerable, and then use the mega tanks weapons to shoot them in the back. I guess that is one way to make extra sure that the mega tanks take little fire. And that the mega tanks weapon's hit a weak spot. But in 95% of the cases the mega tank could simply take the fire and his weapons would punch straight through the enemy front, making the entire ordeal to set everything up a big waste of time. But then, that was not how the Raven Guard and the Alpha Legion had been described in their Index Astartes articles. Neither of them really used to employ "stealthy power armoured Marines".

 

I disagree.

To me, this seems to be the equivalent of saying that if a fighter has knockout power in his fists and a decent chin, he's wasting his time by using feints, set ups, head movements, etc. He just needs to March forward and throw punchs till the other guy drops. That's fun for us the fans, but it's not so great for said fighters career longevity. Nothing wrong with having great physical attributes, but when you combine KO power, ability to take a punch, and all the shifty subtleties of the sweet science, that's when you've got a champion.

 

Ask any tank driver if they'd rather storm headfirst into an enemy that knows they're coming, or if they'd rather hit them from the flank with the advantage of surprise.

 

Maybe I'm reading things into your post that aren't there, but the vibe I'm getting is that you'd consider Angron and the World Eaters more "efficient" Space Marines than the Ravens or the Alphas.

[Legatus]

It was a simplified example. Of course the other Chapters/Legions will use maneuvers and tactics and not just charge headlong into the enemy. Only the Raven Guard and the Alpha Legion are excessive in their efforts to remain unseen at all times and sneak attack at every opportunity. Again, that was not how they were described in their Index Astartes articles, but I guess their background was prone to be misunderstood/exaggerated in that direction. So instead of a "ghost division" Raven Guard that simply cannot be tracked on a regimental level due to their rapid redeployment after each engagement, we now have ninja Raven Guard who sneak up on other Space Marines.

[KarkassBC]

But we confused "astartes" warfare with "trench" warfare.

 

Even larger Legion cannot fill an entire world with outposts and sentinels. A bold strike on a communication node or against a munition depot is easily done.

 

You cannot make stealthy actions where the soldiers are tightly packed, but except on the frontline I doubt that even the biggest Legion like UM and WB can cover every metre of their deployment area.

[Unintentional Batman]

Maybe I'm reading things into your post that aren't there, but the vibe I'm getting is that you'd consider Angron and the World Eaters more "efficient" Space Marines than the Ravens or the Alphas.

 

I reckon this is about the fact that additional sneakiness of Raven Guard and the bunch of Alphariuses is new fluff. Unlike Legatus' beloved "2nd to 5th edition" old fluff that he doesn't acknowledge as being a retcon in the first place. Rogue Trader era fluff was not retconned into the "2nd to 5th edition" fluff, you see. Only later retcons actually count.

[Daemon2027]

I can't recall the source but the AL fought the White Scars at Tallarn and the Space wolves at Yarant. And the Siege of Terra was a huge brutal siege battle, it just doesn't seem to fit their MO to participate in that kind of battle. They were better suited to stall and delay the Emperor's reinforcement as we believe they did. Again all sources for information on the Alpha Legion should be considered unreliable.

 

I don't know, a force that excels in infiltration sounds great during a massive siege espspecially as there were other legions in the brunt of the fighting. But who knows, maybe Horus had the Alpha Legion away from the siege for a specific reason.

 

I personally view the Alpha Legion (and the Raven Guard) as Legatus is describing them from their IA, with the stuff from books like Legion as just part of their MO,rather then a whole (I don't see them as inefficient though). Hopefully their FW entry (which is probally a few years away) will reflect this.

[Arkangilos]

It was a simplified example. Of course the other Chapters/Legions will use maneuvers and tactics and not just charge headlong into the enemy. Only the Raven Guard and the Alpha Legion are excessive in their efforts to remain unseen at all times and sneak attack at every opportunity. Again, that was not how they were described in their Index Astartes articles, but I guess their background was prone to be misunderstood/exaggerated in that direction. So instead of a "ghost division" Raven Guard that simply cannot be tracked on a regimental level due to their rapid redeployment after each engagement, we now have ninja Raven Guard who sneak up on other Space Marines.

 

From what I have so far read and listened to, I really haven't yet seen a case where the Raven Guard are what you describe them as. I haven't read all of the material, but from what I have read, and listened to, they just do a lot of hit and run attacks, and use stealth when they can.

 

For example, in Raven's Flight they had fought normally in the Drop Site massacre, and then withdrew once they lost.

Then, they would start setting up ambushes, hit the enemy, and withdraw. Set up a new ambush, hit the enemy, and withdraw. And they continued to do this until finally backed into a corner by Angron. They knew where to look for the Raven Guard, but each time it was set as a trap. There is nothing stupid or unrealistic about that.

[Legatus]

I haven't read all the Raven Guard story, but I distinctyl remember that in some book Raven Guard Space Marines were sneaking up on some Ultramarines. Perhaps even on Telion. Perhaps it was 'Chapter's Due'? Or that Telion audiobook?

[Kol Saresk]

I know in Hunt for Voldorius a group of White Scars and Raven Guard aost mistook each other for enemies and the White Scars had a harder time tracking the Raven Guard due to whatever armor modifications they do, but nothing about Raven Guard and Ultramarines. Although in Chapter's Due the Raven Guard worked alongside the Ultramarines hunting for Adaric Vaanes but both forces were aware of each other since the beginning of the book and IIRC, the audiobook concerning Telion was during the fight for Ultramar, but I haven't listened to it so that might be where it happened.

[Daemon2027]

I think this is where 'cool' Black Library story's which reflect and aspect of a Legion/Chapters personality gets mistaken for the whole of it. Yes the Raven Guard are capable if small infiltration missions, and some of their commanders may even prefer it, but at the same time they can take on an enemy in force. I think in Helion Rain they fight a large pitched battle against the 'Nids, to hold them in place while there scouts go ahead to blow something up. They are not happy about it but they do it. I see the Alphas the same. They have troops moving forward to gather intelligence, sabotage defences/supply lines, assassinate leaders, but if they need to they will bring mass infantry assaults, dreadnoughts, super heavy tanks, whatever to win. I can't imagine a space marine commander turning around and saying they are not going to fight because they can't sneak up to the enemy.

[EumenesDominatus]

I can't recall the source but the AL fought the White Scars at Tallarn and the Space wolves at Yarant. And the Siege of Terra was a huge brutal siege battle, it just doesn't seem to fit their MO to participate in that kind of battle. They were better suited to stall and delay the Emperor's reinforcement as we believe they did. Again all sources for information on the Alpha Legion should be considered unreliable.

 

I don't know, a force that excels in infiltration sounds great during a massive siege espspecially as there were other legions in the brunt of the fighting. But who knows, maybe Horus had the Alpha Legion away from the siege for a specific reason.

 

 

If Horus had more time to prepare I'm sure he would have used AL infiltrators but from what I know he was rushed in his attack on Terra because of loyalists coming to its defense.

[Kol Saresk]

Well in 40k the Chapters have been reduced to being well-equipped assault forces. A specialty is needed to diversify them by something other than color and heraldry. And the Legions are dispersed on ther side of the spectrum. I think the problem is that everyone wants to force the Chapter/Warband onto the Legion and then vice versa.

[Excessus]

If Horus had more time to prepare I'm sure he would have used AL infiltrators but from what I know he was rushed in his attack on Terra because of loyalists coming to its defense.

Well, the only reason that the White Scars were at Terra for the siege is because Omegon's little operation at the Tenebrae installation... ^_^

[KarkassBC]

If Horus had more time to prepare I'm sure he would have used AL infiltrators but from what I know he was rushed in his attack on Terra because of loyalists coming to its defense.

Well, the only reason that the White Scars were at Terra for the siege is because Omegon's little operation at the Tenebrae installation... :P

 

One of the best stories... "traitorous traitors" against "loyalist traitors" in the same Legion... one day after many changes of sides they will forget even the reason of their actions...

 

BTW I don't think the twins really plan for the extinction of the human race as a solution to win over Chaos... they know from the start that the Cabal vision was a lie because the Chaos God Slaanesh came out from the Eldar race without any link to the humans (maybe a little help). So Chaos started before and easily could continue after the extinction. The Cabal's project was a lie and the twin primarchs faked their acceptance... they took important informations from the Cabal and made different actions.

 

Omegon simply took the next step: betrayed his brother in order to give false information to Horus (to really deceive an enemy you need to deceive a friend)

[Veteran Sergeant]

I reckon this is about the fact that additional sneakiness of Raven Guard and the bunch of Alphariuses is new fluff. Unlike Legatus' beloved "2nd to 5th edition" old fluff that he doesn't acknowledge as being a retcon in the first place. Rogue Trader era fluff was not retconned into the "2nd to 5th edition" fluff, you see. Only later retcons actually count.

I don't that's what he's getting at at all.

 

It's that the new fluff is stupid and makes no sense, lol.

 

 

The Alpha Legion, in the old days, became sneaky bastards because that was how they had to adapt to fight in the 40K universe where they were a tiny force against a massive Imperium. In 30K, they were a Legion. There was no need for them, in fact it would have been wholly inefficient and pointless for them to fight how they are often described in the current novel series. The Alpha Legion fluff now is absolutely awful. It seems to exist as a means for Black Library authors to compete and see who can come up with the most ridiculous story possible. In fact, it seems that the Alpha Legion spend most of their time not doing anything Space Mariney at all. I joke that the only reason the Alpha Legion wasn't censured like the Word Bearers is that they'd had one of their James Bond Marines infiltrate the command network and were sending falsified reports of victories in battles that never happened in systems that didn't exist. :turned:

[Unintentional Batman]

I don't that's what he's getting at at all.

 

That's only, like your opinion, man.

 

I stand by my (accurate) reading of Legatus and his cherrypicked rage over some retcons and not some (Ultramarine related reasons). He does handle his prose well around his agenda, though, I am more than willing to tip my hat for that.

 

*tips hat*

 

Anyway, I think it's high time to leave profiling of Legatus lie for a while, before the inquisitors come and get me.

 

*paints his power armour Ultramarine blue and vanishes into the crowd*

[Hellios]

I don't know, a force that excels in infiltration sounds great during a massive siege espspecially as there were other legions in the brunt of the fighting. But who knows, maybe Horus had the Alpha Legion away from the siege for a specific reason.

 

Who do you think turned the shields off?

[Captain Idaho]

If there's any poetic justice left in the world it world it won't have ANYTHING to do with the Alpha Legion. I'd also like their hubris and incorrect/traitorous ways finally revealed by then, because I'm bored of everyone thinking they are good guys in 40K.

[Excessus]

If there's any poetic justice left in the world it world it won't have ANYTHING to do with the Alpha Legion. I'd also like their hubris and incorrect/traitorous ways finally revealed by then, because I'm bored of everyone thinking they are good guys in 40K.

What? Alpha Legion are good guys? Good to who? Chaos? The Imperium? The Emperor? The Cabal? The universe? Themselves?

[Legatus]

I don't that's what he's getting at at all.

 

That's only, like your opinion, man.

 

I stand by my (accurate) reading of Legatus and his cherrypicked rage over some retcons and not some (Ultramarine related reasons). He does handle his prose well around his agenda, though, I am more than willing to tip my hat for that.

 

*tips hat*

 

Anyway, I think it's high time to leave profiling of Legatus lie for a while, before the inquisitors come and get me.

 

*paints his power armour Ultramarine blue and vanishes into the crowd*

Well, I'm glad you're not going on and on about me.

[Unintentional Batman]

Well, I'm glad you're not going on and on about me.

 

Only up to the next thread you whine about BL fluff retconning "2nd to 5th edition" fluff, while not caring about the Rogue Trader era retcons because those benefitted Ultramarines. But up to that, I'll find something else to talk about.

 

*hangs in disguise with the other Ultramarine fanboys*