Hellios Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 If there's any poetic justice left in the world it world it won't have ANYTHING to do with the Alpha Legion. I'd also like their hubris and incorrect/traitorous ways finally revealed by then, because I'm bored of everyone thinking they are good guys in 40K. I didn't say they were the good guys. Why betray one master just to allow another one to put his yoke on you? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I wouldn't think of the Alpha Legion as the good guys. Genocide is genocide, whether it be evolution or forced. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I wouldn't think of the Alpha Legion as the good guys. Genocide is genocide, whether it be evolution or forced. Well it is good that no one in 40K is the good guy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted January 4, 2013 Author Share Posted January 4, 2013 I reckon this is about the fact that additional sneakiness of Raven Guard and the bunch of Alphariuses is new fluff. Unlike Legatus' beloved "2nd to 5th edition" old fluff that he doesn't acknowledge as being a retcon in the first place. Rogue Trader era fluff was not retconned into the "2nd to 5th edition" fluff, you see. Only later retcons actually count. I don't that's what he's getting at at all. It's that the new fluff is stupid and makes no sense, lol. The Alpha Legion, in the old days, became sneaky bastards because that was how they had to adapt to fight in the 40K universe where they were a tiny force against a massive Imperium. In 30K, they were a Legion. There was no need for them, in fact it would have been wholly inefficient and pointless for them to fight how they are often described in the current novel series. The Alpha Legion fluff now is absolutely awful. It seems to exist as a means for Black Library authors to compete and see who can come up with the most ridiculous story possible. In fact, it seems that the Alpha Legion spend most of their time not doing anything Space Mariney at all. I joke that the only reason the Alpha Legion wasn't censured like the Word Bearers is that they'd had one of their James Bond Marines infiltrate the command network and were sending falsified reports of victories in battles that never happened in systems that didn't exist. :lol: Man, to be honest I think that you are misunderstanding some things and stretching others too much... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I wouldn't think of the Alpha Legion as the good guys. Genocide is genocide, whether it be evolution or forced. Well it is good that no one in 40K is the good guy. And that's why it is "grey and grimdark." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 There can be good guys in a grimdark setting. As long as the good guys are not getting what they want it is still grimdark. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 If the "good guys" are not against killing innocents just because they are in the way or happen to be on the wrong side, then they are not good, regardless of how honorable they may or may not be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Warhammer 40K = Nazis in Space, but the Nazis are Correct (+Vulkan as the token nice chap). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Warhammer 40K = Nazis in Space, but the Nazis are Correct (+Vulkan as the token nice chap). Err, I'm not so sure I would call the Imperium of Man "correct" in any way. Many other civilizations that were crushed during the crusades were much more civil... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Warhammer 40K = Nazis in Space, but the Nazis are Correct (+Vulkan as the token nice chap). Err, I'm not so sure I would call the Imperium of Man "correct" in any way. Many other civilizations that were crushed during the crusades were much more civil... Well, it only works from the point of view of the Empire, of course. But I really like the sentence (without the Vulkan joke), so I keep on using it. It is one of the themes I have always liked in Warhammer as a whole. Haven't gotten around exploring it much in 40K because our only Rogue Trader (the RPG, not 1st ed 40K) game worked firmly on Han Solo the RPG basis still (planning to divert it towards this theme at some point, with some Legion shenanigans and the Imperium starting to show its uglier side in full force), but in Warhammer Fantasy we did a lot of it with having the players take the role of your usual "peoples' champion" type Good Guys you often find in D&D and other such games and having them slowly come to the realization that humanity is bound to get beat, killed and eaten - mind, body and soul, unless the Evil that the Witchunters and such do is allowed to go on. Puts you more in perspetive of what they are facing, having to come to terms with that being a Good Guy (and for example saving a whole village from getting murdered to catch one witch) might not be worth it in the grand scale of things and that you need to embrace Evil. Unfortunately the campaign ended in a near TPK before we got to the point where embracing Chaos (they were already outlaws) or giving up any pretense of being Good Guys would have been their only options. But I digress :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 It's not that they're better, it's just that they're less worse. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 You want to know the truth about the Great Crusade? The truth is, we live in a galaxy that has walls. Walls that keep out the murderous greenskin, ravenous tyranid, depraved eldar, and unknowable necrontyr. And those walls have to be manned. Who's gonna do it? The Interex? The Diasporex? You weep for the kings of Shrike, and you curse the Emperor's name. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what He knows..that the excesses of Curze, Russ, and Angron, while tragic, in the long run saved lives. The truth is, deep down, in places you don't talk about on message boards, you WANT the Legions Astartes on that wall. You NEED the Legions Astartes on that wall. The Primarchs use words like brotherhood, faith, and sacrifice. They use these words as justification for a life of endless pain endured because it is their duty. You use them as a punchline. The truth is, they do not care to endure the mockery of those who grow old under the protection they provide, then question the manner in which they provide it. The truth is, you should either just say "Thank you" or grab a bolter and stand a post, because we have no more time to waste on what YOU want. Captain Jessup, VII Legion "Imperial Fists" 13th Company Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 You want to know the truth about the Great Crusade? The truth is, we live in a galaxy that has walls. Walls that keep out the murderous greenskin, ravenous tyranid, depraved eldar, and unknowable necrontyr. And those walls have to be manned. Who's gonna do it? The Interex? The Diasporex? You weep for the kings of Shrike, and you curse the Emperor's name. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what He knows..that the excesses of Curze, Russ, and Angron, while tragic, in the long run saved lives. The truth is, deep down, in places you don't talk about on message boards, you WANT the Legions Astartes on that wall. You NEED the Legions Astartes on that wall. The Primarchs use words like brotherhood, faith, and sacrifice. They use these words as justification for a life of endless pain endured because it is their duty. You use them as a punchline. The truth is, they do not care to endure the mockery of those who grow old under the protection they provide, then question the manner in which they provide it. The truth is, you should either just say "Thank you" or grab a bolter and stand a post, because we have no more time to waste on what YOU want. Captain Jessup, VII Legion "Imperial Fists" 13th Company http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAryFIuRxmQ WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 You want to know the truth about the Great Crusade? The truth is, we live in a galaxy that has walls. Walls that keep out the murderous greenskin, ravenous tyranid, depraved eldar, and unknowable necrontyr. And those walls have to be manned. Who's gonna do it? The Interex? The Diasporex? You weep for the kings of Shrike, and you curse the Emperor's name. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what He knows..that the excesses of Curze, Russ, and Angron, while tragic, in the long run saved lives. The truth is, deep down, in places you don't talk about on message boards, you WANT the Legions Astartes on that wall. You NEED the Legions Astartes on that wall. The Primarchs use words like brotherhood, faith, and sacrifice. They use these words as justification for a life of endless pain endured because it is their duty. You use them as a punchline. The truth is, they do not care to endure the mockery of those who grow old under the protection they provide, then question the manner in which they provide it. The truth is, you should either just say "Thank you" or grab a bolter and stand a post, because we have no more time to waste on what YOU want. Captain Jessup, VII Legion "Imperial Fists" 13th Company I hope this was a satirical post. I can't handle all the fascist rhetoric. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 You want to know the truth about the Great Crusade? The truth is, we live in a galaxy that has walls. Walls that keep out the murderous greenskin, ravenous tyranid, depraved eldar, and unknowable necrontyr. And those walls have to be manned. Who's gonna do it? The Interex? The Diasporex? You weep for the kings of Shrike, and you curse the Emperor's name. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what He knows..that the excesses of Curze, Russ, and Angron, while tragic, in the long run saved lives. The truth is, deep down, in places you don't talk about on message boards, you WANT the Legions Astartes on that wall. You NEED the Legions Astartes on that wall. The Primarchs use words like brotherhood, faith, and sacrifice. They use these words as justification for a life of endless pain endured because it is their duty. You use them as a punchline. The truth is, they do not care to endure the mockery of those who grow old under the protection they provide, then question the manner in which they provide it. The truth is, you should either just say "Thank you" or grab a bolter and stand a post, because we have no more time to waste on what YOU want. Captain Jessup, VII Legion "Imperial Fists" 13th Company I hope this was a satirical post. I can't handle all the fascist rhetoric. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I think people confuse modern fascism with 40K too often and it betrays a misunderstanding of the setting. Mankind, in 40K, faces extiction and the galaxy domination by Chaos, and the Emperor knew it. Only total war could ultimately save either. "Benevolent" races destroyed were done so because they were a barrier and people shouldn't regard such extreme measures by our standards. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unintentional Batman Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Mankind, in 40K, faces extiction and the galaxy domination by Chaos, and the Emperor knew it. Only total war could ultimately save either. "Benevolent" races destroyed were done so because they were a barrier and people shouldn't regard such extreme measures by our standards. Of course we should. And it's a completely viable thought that it is better to let humanity go extinct than to live under the tyranny of the Empire. Better to die as humans, than to die as monsters. The ends don't justify the means. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Wade Garret, is that post yours or did you find it somewhere? EDIT: The question of who is right and who is wrong is out the window. There is no right. Only wrong. The only "choice" in 40k is to survive. So the question is no longer, do you want to do what is right or what is wrong, the question is how far are you willing to go to live. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MordentHex Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Considering the background and civilization we live in today and that of this game, I don't think its fair to point our questions of Morality in this setting. Who is the good guy and who is the bad guy as through time is written by the ones left standing at the end of the day. Besides, If this where the to actually be discussed on any world Social network In the Imperium everyone here would be burned at the stake in front of a raging crowd for being a Heretic. With that said, go with the fluff you like and let your boltguns do the talking on the battlefield. :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Maybe. Maybe not. Just remember that we are the ones who call it "grimdark." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Mankind, in 40K, faces extiction and the galaxy domination by Chaos, and the Emperor knew it. Only total war could ultimately save either. "Benevolent" races destroyed were done so because they were a barrier and people shouldn't regard such extreme measures by our standards. Of course we should. And it's a completely viable thought that it is better to let humanity go extinct than to live under the tyranny of the Empire. Better to die as humans, than to die as monsters. The ends don't justify the means. And so continues the great debate of morality and who prefers what philosophical approach. Your way isn't more right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MordentHex Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I know i didn't help with my previous post, but i think this has gone way off topic at this point. back to the topic shall we? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3279968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I think people are missing out the fact that the Alpha Legion in both 40k and 30k incarnations might do alot of "unconventional" warfare but do so with human/cultist forces. The Marine forces of the Alpha Legion still act as shock troopers in engagements and while there are examples of them doing sneaky things, I could see any Marine force trying the same if the circumstances deemed it necessary (whether they would be good at it or not is a different subject altogether). The Alphas have psychoindoctrination programs for these human troops, they give them martial training straight from the Legion combat forges, they render them weapons and equipment and whatever intelligence deemed necessary for them to complete their missions and above all they are considered to be part of the Legion. The Alphas take care of their own. Guilliman might look favorably upon PDF/Imperial Armed forces but he would never consider them to be part of his Chapter/Legion. Never. He is too hierarchical for that given the way he splits up Imperial forces and how 40k Codex Astartes are generally noted to not be able to command human forces with the allowances that should be made for their physical limitations. I still think the feud rests on doctrinal conflict between the Hydra and the Big Blue Machine. This is a common thread in Guilliman's history with doctrinal differences being the main conflict; it was the reason Dorn and Guilliman who were probably as close as any two Primarchs in disposition and respect nearly came to blows and why Lorgar felt slighted by Robby G on Monarchia and a few other examples are around I am sure. If Guilliman is talking trash about the methods and trustworthiness of an Astartes Legion and Primarch with a expedition commander such as Natrajima(?) in the book Legion, who could say what he was saying amongst his Chapter Masters or amongst his fellow brother Primarchs. Guilliman even disparages Lorgar (albeit an offhanded remark) in front of his Masters and does not reprimand Sgt. RedHead when he basically says he would do bad things to Lorgar and Guilliman even agrees with him on some level. Guilliman was not exactly a Primarch of tact but one who spoke his mind openly and honestly (in his own mind) and did not mind the consequences. Surely the intelligence minded Alpha Legion would hear of some of these slights against their Primarch and their Legion honor and take offense to this. As I said above, it wouldnt be the first time Guilliman angered someone over ideas and his insensitivity (kind of like the Lion's inability to read motives) towards his brothers and fellow forces. The fact they (and the fluff) hold themselves up to be the "ideal" Space Marine Legion makes them the ideal target for emnity. It is a mark of honor to their successes and failures as paragons of all that it means to be Astartes Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3280043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I reckon this is about the fact that additional sneakiness of Raven Guard and the bunch of Alphariuses is new fluff. Unlike Legatus' beloved "2nd to 5th edition" old fluff that he doesn't acknowledge as being a retcon in the first place. Rogue Trader era fluff was not retconned into the "2nd to 5th edition" fluff, you see. Only later retcons actually count.I don't that's what he's getting at at all. It's that the new fluff is stupid and makes no sense, lol. The Alpha Legion, in the old days, became sneaky bastards because that was how they had to adapt to fight in the 40K universe where they were a tiny force against a massive Imperium. In 30K, they were a Legion. There was no need for them, in fact it would have been wholly inefficient and pointless for them to fight how they are often described in the current novel series. The Alpha Legion fluff now is absolutely awful. It seems to exist as a means for Black Library authors to compete and see who can come up with the most ridiculous story possible. In fact, it seems that the Alpha Legion spend most of their time not doing anything Space Mariney at all. I joke that the only reason the Alpha Legion wasn't censured like the Word Bearers is that they'd had one of their James Bond Marines infiltrate the command network and were sending falsified reports of victories in battles that never happened in systems that didn't exist. Man, to be honest I think that you are misunderstanding some things and stretching others too much... Well, it's an adorable opinion you have, but having played Alpha Legion Chaos back in 2nd Edition when the Alpha Legion first got meat added to its story, and then following the most recent changes to their fluff and style in the Heresy novels, there's very little to "misunderstand". In fact, I'm not entirely sure what you think there even is to misunderstand. I mean, you can disagree with me, and think that the Mission Impossible Marines are cool and the newer Alpha Legion stories haven't been rather insipid and silly. That's fine. I just prefer the old way they were presented. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3280788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Wade Garret, is that post yours or did you find it somewhere? EDIT: The question of who is right and who is wrong is out the window. There is no right. Only wrong. The only "choice" in 40k is to survive. So the question is no longer, do you want to do what is right or what is wrong, the question is how far are you willing to go to live. I just took a transcript of Jessup's speech from AFGM and changed things up to be more 40Kish. It's weird how many lunatic military bad guys (Colonel Quarich,anyone?) would be lauded heroes in the grim dark future. And another one, a play on your post: "The question is not, how far are you willing to go. The question is, do you have the faith to go as far as is needed?" Inquisitor Lord McManus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268552-feud-between-guilliman-and-alpharius/page/6/#findComment-3283833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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