Feud between Guilliman and Alpharius

[Kol Saresk]

I was actually unaware of that quote by an Inquisitor. Huh.

 

Although I think you just found the inspiration for Commisar Yarrick's namesake.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Mankind, in 40K, faces extiction and the galaxy domination by Chaos, and the Emperor knew it. Only total war could ultimately save either. "Benevolent" races destroyed were done so because they were a barrier and people shouldn't regard such extreme measures by our standards.

 

Of course we should.

 

And it's a completely viable thought that it is better to let humanity go extinct than to live under the tyranny of the Empire. Better to die as humans, than to die as monsters. The ends don't justify the means.

Base human instinct is to survive. Not to nobly sacrifice themselves so that the Nids can go OMNOMNOM on planets without any humans on them. The ends completely justify the means.

[Captain Idaho]

Mankind, in 40K, faces extiction and the galaxy domination by Chaos, and the Emperor knew it. Only total war could ultimately save either. "Benevolent" races destroyed were done so because they were a barrier and people shouldn't regard such extreme measures by our standards.

 

Of course we should.

 

And it's a completely viable thought that it is better to let humanity go extinct than to live under the tyranny of the Empire. Better to die as humans, than to die as monsters. The ends don't justify the means.

 

Try having children and saying that.

[Wade Garrett]

I was actually unaware of that quote by an Inquisitor. Huh.

 

Although I think you just found the inspiration for Commisar Yarrick's namesake.

 

It's another altered movie quote, Poppa McManus/"IL Duce" from the Boondock Saints, before he and his sons go on their grand spree of Irish Catholic vigilante justice. But it still fits 40K.

 

Also...it's better to let the human race burn out than exist as it does in "modern" 40K?

Twentieth Primarchs, is that you?

[RapatoR]

I reckon this is about the fact that additional sneakiness of Raven Guard and the bunch of Alphariuses is new fluff. Unlike Legatus' beloved "2nd to 5th edition" old fluff that he doesn't acknowledge as being a retcon in the first place. Rogue Trader era fluff was not retconned into the "2nd to 5th edition" fluff, you see. Only later retcons actually count.

I don't that's what he's getting at at all.

It's that the new fluff is stupid and makes no sense, lol.

The Alpha Legion, in the old days, became sneaky bastards because that was how they had to adapt to fight in the 40K universe where they were a tiny force against a massive Imperium. In 30K, they were a Legion. There was no need for them, in fact it would have been wholly inefficient and pointless for them to fight how they are often described in the current novel series. The Alpha Legion fluff now is absolutely awful. It seems to exist as a means for Black Library authors to compete and see who can come up with the most ridiculous story possible. In fact, it seems that the Alpha Legion spend most of their time not doing anything Space Mariney at all. I joke that the only reason the Alpha Legion wasn't censured like the Word Bearers is that they'd had one of their James Bond Marines infiltrate the command network and were sending falsified reports of victories in battles that never happened in systems that didn't exist.

Man, to be honest I think that you are misunderstanding some things and stretching others too much...

Well, it's an adorable opinion you have, but having played Alpha Legion Chaos back in 2nd Edition when the Alpha Legion first got meat added to its story, and then following the most recent changes to their fluff and style in the Heresy novels, there's very little to "misunderstand". In fact, I'm not entirely sure what you think there even is to misunderstand.

I mean, you can disagree with me, and think that the Mission Impossible Marines are cool and the newer Alpha Legion stories haven't been rather insipid and silly. That's fine. I just prefer the old way they were presented.

To be honest, I think that people who claim there is a new background to AL, are taking narrow passages of some books and just blowing them out of proportion.

[Legatus]

Yeah? I dunno. The 2nd to 4th Edition background for the Alpha Legion was not extensive, but what we got was their MO and how/why they turned. And both of that is kinda different in the HH books.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Yeah, the people who don't believe there's been a radical change in the Alpha Legion haven't been around the game long enough to notice the difference.

 

However, it's not just the change that bothers me. Change is fine. It's what it changed into.

 

It's fair of me to outline what I don't like. I don't like that they have become super spies. Infiltrating everything. The Raven Guard is one thing. Sketchy, but okay. When in Legion, they're infiltrating regular human populations, that's silly. A Space Marine is seven to seven and a half feet tall, and probably weighs seven hundred pounds by my estimation based on bone density, muscular density, ligament density, extra organs (water weight is a bitch), implanted subdermal carapace, etc. That's just silly.

 

I felt like, reading Deliverance Lost, that Gav Thorpe was literally just trying to one-up Abnett by coming up with an even more ridiculously over the top plot for the Alpha Legion. They're Space Marines. They need to be Space Marines first, because it's the Great Crusade. We already saw what the Emperor did to Lorgar because he thought Lorgar's Legion wasn't being Space Mariney enough. I dunno. I just feel like the Alpha Legion's trope has turned from "We are kinda sneaky gits" to wondering what they are going to do next. The answer should be "Go kill another planet full of the galaxy's troublesome squishy bits."

 

The problem I think was that the HH authors didn't identify that what made the Alpha Legion all Alpha Legiony was that they started a ten thousand year long guerrilla war after the Heresy failed.

 

Description of the Alpha Legion from Codex: Chaos 2E: "during the Great Crusade the Legion became renowned for its discipline and strict organization" and "On the battlefield, the terrifying coordination of the Alpha Legion was their hallmark; their attacks kept the enemy under constant pressure while they sought a weakness in their defenses".

 

"Joyously the Alpha Legion clashed with loyalist Space Marines on Isstvan V and the campaigns thereafter. Here at last was an opponent fully as tough, as well trained, and ferocious as themselves." "The Alpha Legion became entirely separated from the forces of Horus but continued to wage war on all they came across. By the end of the Heresy they were inventing objectives and missions of their own to fulfill their war lust without reference to their allies."

 

Yeah, that sounds just like the way they are depicted in the Heresy Series novels, lol. It goes on to talk about how the Alpha Legion set up hidden bases after the Heresy so they could continue their war against the Imperium by raiding and fomenting Cultist rebellions. That's where they Heresy Series has made fundamental alterations to the Alpha Legion. They became sneaky because they had to in order to survive. The Heresy had failed, and the entire might of the Imperium was against them. But they were Chaosy Green Berets, setting up raids, working with local forces (cultists) etc. They did that because it was the only method of warfare left to them and Alpharius had taught them to be resourceful. What the Heresy series has done is take the Alpha Legion's predisposition to foment rebellions and establish networks of informants and double agents, and turned them into Mission Impossible Marines, where they do the infiltrating and there are all these ridiculously over-complicated plans. Basically they took the Alpha Legion, magnified its trope tenfold, and then just kept smashing it against the wall as hard as possible, no matter how little sense it makes and how eye-rollingly corny it is. To the point where suddenly the Alpha Legion no longer turned to Chaos because Alpharius was closer to Horus than he was to Emperor, and the Alpha Legion was all too happy to test themselves against other Marines, whereas now there is some kind of ludicrous plot where the Alpha Legion is, argh, lol.

[Wade Garrett]

Caveat:

The Alpha Legion didn't infiltrate human organizations in Legion...they recruited operatives in said organizations (Hetnando Bronzi, Peto Soneka, Shere, etc.) with the Legionaries themselves serving as handlers/mission control for said operatives.

 

Not even going to TRY to defend Deliverance Lost.

[Excessus]

I've played Alpha Legion since 2nd ed as well, and though I agree they had a nice piece of fluff, there was not much of it back then. And it was not very inspiring either. Marines that are good at coordination? How do they fit in when you have such strong characteristic legions beside them, they would become bland just by not changing. The change was maybe a bit too drastic though, I agree, but it's not all as bad as people think.

 

In Legion they explored the "Operative" concept and I think they did a good job and still keeping it a bit to the 2nd ed fluff, the end wa sa bit rushed though. Deliverance Lost took it to its extremes. They infiltrated the Raven Guard and the World Eaters, but the only reason why they succeeded, was because nobody was expecting it, and they also lost the majority of their astartes opeatives that took part of the operation...which is where I started getting really sceptic since their fluff had been that they cared for their mortal operatives...but not their astartes ones?

 

The Serpent Below was a really nice story, I liked it a lot...until the end. Why oh why must A&O continuously sacrifice their elite astartes? They choose the best ones for the job and then leave them to die??? Crazy! (And also, why did Janic have to die, he was awesome!)

 

 

...I think that change was neccesary from the old fluff in the 2nd ed codex, but now it feels more like a runaway train than a bandwagon...

[Kol Saresk]

The Serpent Beneath I got because of that "number one rule of covert warfare": kill the operative. Basically, Omegon was trying to start a civil war in his own Legion and as such, needed as few witnesses as possible since he was lying about it.

 

But in Deliverance Lost..... While extravagant, I can sort of get the infiltration of Raven Guard, at least how it happened. As far as it as a plot point....... Well let's just say that The Face of Treachery and Deliverance Lost were rather disappointing. Ironically, while they were poorly written, that short story and novel had the least amount of spelling and grammatical errors I've seen come out of BL in a while.

[RapatoR]

Well in Deliverance lost we have seen few picked individuals (presumably the elite) doing extremely dangerous operation, that was one trick pony and almost failed. It is a wrong assumption and wild exaggeration if you think AL is doing this all the time.

SPOILER ALERT.

It is like seeing assassination attempt on Fulgrim by RG and IH marine in Angel exterminatus and assume: Oh IH and RG have to do it like this all the time.

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

ok ill get up to speed after reading the next 6 pages but just after reading the first few post i had to say my point of view the way i see rob

 

hes a jerk. he finds himself far superior then most of his brother. for one i think their are only 4 brother that he doesnt have beef with. second he thinks his method of war is better then the others and is just blind the fear that the NL,IA,WE use in battle are strong methods ill come up with more points later

[Billuriye]

ok ill get up to speed after reading the next 6 pages but just after reading the first few post i had to say my point of view the way i see rob

 

hes a jerk. he finds himself far superior then most of his brother. for one i think their are only 4 brother that he doesnt have beef with. second he thinks his method of war is better then the others and is just blind the fear that the NL,IA,WE use in battle are strong methods ill come up with more points later

 

But his victories and accomplishments surpass most of his brothers. In that he's not wrong.

[Legatus]

he finds himself far superior then most of his brother.

That is an assesssment based on 200 years of him constantly outperforming them, so it is not unfounded. At least he is not parading around lording that over them, and he genuinely tries to help his brothers get up to his standards. Even during the Crusade he was in favour of sharing doctrines and tactics, and after the Heresy he reduced his own force to the same 1000 warriors as everyone else, even though he previously had commanded the largest of the Legions. If it was up to him, all the other Legions would be doing just as well as the Ultramarines. He is not trying to hug the top spot, like other Legions might *coughlunawolves*.

 

 

second he thinks his method of war is better then the others

Except that he adopts some of the methods of the others and includes them in the Codex Astartes. Like Perturabo's siege tactics, or contributions from Leman Russ or Lion El'Jonson. Guilliman is described as one of the most open minded, and most eager to learn about new methods. Other Primarchs saw the suggestion that they might try the methods of others as an insult.

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

dont you mean emperors children and horus didnt want to be warmaster- guilliman always felt it should be him hes the worst just because he had more victories then any of them doesnt mean they are and why did you reckon the ultramarine had mor victories and still had the most warriors because his warrior barely bled their more bureaucrats then warriors cant argue with me on that one

they have improved now

 

and he rubs in alpharius how many victories he has i mean thats a low blow because alpharius was the last to be found of course he couldnt compete against that

[Legatus]

dont you mean emperors children and horus didnt want to be warmaster- guilliman always felt it should be him

No, I meant the Luna Wolves. They were known to leave behind worlds whose military they had just crushed, just so they could rush to the next warzone and achieve their next military success. That the world they had just "liberated" was in ruins and without defenses was not their problem. During one campaign where they fought at the side of the Iron Warriors and the Ultramarines, they would leave behind those two Legions to mop up remaining pockets of resistance, because the Luna Wolves argued that they would all be needed at the front lines.

 

 

why did you reckon the ultramarine had mor victories and still had the most warriors because his warrior barely bled their more bureaucrats then warriors cant argue with me on that one

Au contraire.

 

"Because of their strong recruitment base and Roboute Guilliman's tactical expertise, the Ultramarines soon became the largest Space Marine Legion, having more recruits and suffering fewer casualties than any other Legion."

(5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 13; also in 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 12)

 

There you have it. The Ultramarines suffered fewer casualties than the other Legions thanks to Guilliman's tactical expertise.

 

 

and he rubs in alpharius how many victories he has i mean thats a low blow because alpharius was the last to be found of course he couldnt compete against that

But Guilliman was attemtping to allow him to compete. The Ultramarines were able to conquer worlds faster than any other Legion (and they were able to do that before they grew to be the largest, it was a result fo their methodology, not of their numbers). The Alpha Legion methods, while perhaps very intricate and clever, were taking a long time to set up properly. Guilliman, the "older brother", was offering Alpharius all the experience and wisdom he had collected over the course of the Great Crusade (which already would include the doctrines of a lot fo his brothers), and the opportunity for the Alpha Legion to do equally well. Alpharius saw that as an insult.

[Captain Idaho]

That wasn't very clear. You're wrong if course! Guilliman thought he was beyond Warmaster by the time it was granted to a Primarch.

 

Besides referring to ANY Space Marines as more into bureaucracy couldn't be more wrong.

[Deathwatch/Grey knight]

i said they have improved and they are look at them and guilliman is a pushover offering help to his brothers just so they could be in his standards if that not a jerk what is

 

but what do i expect from an ultra

 

anyone who sees my point back me up

[Legatus]

guilliman is a pushover offering help to his brothers just so they could be in his standards if that not a jerk what is

I dunno, someone keeping all the best tricks to himself? Someone who hugs the lime light?

 

And as I said, his standards were in part influenced by studying the doctrines of his brothers. What a lot of people overlook when they ramble on about Guilliman and the Codex Astartes is that this was not "the Ultramarine way of war" but instead "the Space Marine way of war". He did not just suggest that the other Legions should adopt "his" doctrines. He spent the entire Great Crusade testing and evaluating different methods and tactics, and compiled all he learned into the Codex. The background story of Guilliman describes how back on Macragge he had learnt all that the scholars could teach him about history, sciences, philosophy and war. Then, when he was found by the Emperor and given command over a Space Marine Legion, it goes on to describe that he eagerly "assimilated the many wonders of the Imperium". Where other Primarchs simply reorganized the Legions to operate just how they had learnt it on their home worlds (e.g. SW, WS, AL, IH, etc.), Guilliman did not simply led his Legion "his way" as he had learnt on Macragge. Instead, he actively sought out new ideas and doctrines, with the intention to develop an empirical and quantifiable "best" doctrine for Space Marines. (This would then, for example, include the siege tactics of the Iron Warriors.) And his intention also was to make his findings available to everyone.

 

Imagine three scientists, each proposing a very different paradigm for a certain field. Then a fourth scientists comes in, and carefully tests and evaluates the three different paradigms based on their merit. He writes a full report on which elements of which paradigm work well, or are accurate and usefull, and which are not. And he then offers his report to the three scientists to base their future work on. What a jerk.

[Wade Garrett]

This is coming from someone who, after The First Heretic, wanted to burn Maccrage to the ground and use Guilliman as the kindling, I.E. not an Ultras fanboy:

 

Guilliman's flaw isn't his ego, it's his people skills. The looks we get at him in the short stories, in Know No Fear, and yes, even The First Heretic show a supremely talented administrator and strategist who sadly tends to couch his insights as bluntly as a powerfist to the skull. That's why Horus was chosen to be the Warmaster...Luprecal had more people skills in his fingertips than Rob has in his entire body, as evidenced by the way Horus could get along with Primarchs like Curze and Angron, who had trouble getting along with themselves.

 

Meanwhile, Rob was sent to put Lorgar in line and got a crozius to the chest for hid troubles. If only living things were more predictable, like the spreadsheets and pie charts of LOGISTICS.

[Captain Idaho]

Although I agree Horus was the only Primarch who could motivate all the other Primarchs and had the superior people skills, i think people don't give Guilliman enough credit as a leader of men and post-men.

 

Besides the whole Lorgar thing was hardly his fault, he was doing as the Emperor commanded.

 

We have to remember the clumsy honesty thing was supposed to be Dorn rather than Guilliman. We don't want to repeat all that.

[Kol Saresk]

Besides the whole Lorgar thing was hardly his fault, he was doing as the Emperor commanded.

But following orders has never been proof of innocence, especially if you carry them out.

 

I agree that it is his people skills, but not the same way Wade Garret does. Dorn is the rhino in a glass' decorations shop. Gulliman is....... There's no charisma. Yes, he is a strategist beyond belief. Yes, those who have fought under him and those who know his reputation as a peerless general would welcome him. But Horus seems like that person who walks into a room and everyone immediately notices him, not because he forces his presence out there, not because he has an introduction of pomp and circumstance, but because he just seems like one of those people who is a magnet. He could sneak into a room and everyone would still notice him. Meanwhile, Gulliman seems more like the respected officer. Due to his achievements, everyone knows who he is and what he has done. His command loves him and are inspired by him. But at the same time, he himself does not nothing to draw the crowds' attention towards himself. If he and Horus stood together and both of their achievements were at hand to the viewers, more people would still look at Horus despite the length of Gulliman's victory count.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh for sure, that's not really in dispute here at all. Horus is Tony Stark where as Guilliman is Cyclops.

 

But I still dispute heaping blame on Guilliman for what happened with Lorgar. Destroying a city after evacuating a population is hardly the worst thing all the Legions have done. It was the Emperor who made the decision to chastise Lorgar and it was Lorgar who saw amusement in Guilliman's eyes when no one else did, as justification for blaming Guilliman for something which was really his failings.

[Kol Saresk]

Fair enough. It could be that Lorgar saw remorse in Gulliman's eyes and confused it with amusement. Or there is a dark part to Gulliman that we simply have never seen or heard of because he keeps it under wraps.

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe. Though it wouldn't make much sense for Lorgar to be that perceptive to Guilliman when they weren't that close. Maybe it was chaos playing with Lorgar's mind?

 

I'd imagine it was disappointment or even sorrow, but likely it was Lorgar's mind playing with him.

 

Be strange if Guilliman was that dark.

 

Just a thought which occured to me; Guilliman was too unreadable to be Warmaster. Part of being charismatic on a personal level is about people feeling you are open etc. We're told in The First Heretic about his stoic expression, and we're told in Know No Fear that other Primarchs just didn't know what Guilliman was getting out of any collaboration between them. I have a feeling the ill feeling between Alpharius and Guilliman could be similarly down to misreading Guilliman.

 

Makes sense.