Feud between Guilliman and Alpharius

[Kol Saresk]

I think it's more like Lorgar was hurting, and because he didn't see anything that he would recognize as sympathy from Gulliman, he instead perceived it as cold amusement.

 

And we all have our dark sides. Look at the temper Gulliman displayed at and after Calth. Then again, maybe it wasn't that Gulliman was unreadable, but more like he kept everything inside. And the Emperor thought that maybe Gulliman was like a keg of dynamite that was constantly being filled up, just waiting to explode and he just didn't want to see what would happen when Gulliman did explode.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Kicking WB ass left and right, up and down, across Ultramar, I bet.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, at the end of KNF, he wasn't exactly in his best frame of mind. And while at Nurceria he was better(planning an orbital engagement that while not able to defeat the opposing fleet, was able to destroy/cripple two-thirds of it, land troops, pick up troops and retreat, beat the snot out of Lorgar and then survive a fight with a very pissed off Angron), I still wouldn't say he was back to his full self. Granted, if it wasn't for the Ruinstorm, I'd say he probably would have followed Lorgar to the ends of the galaxy. But alas, he, his Legion and all he had gathered towards his banner became trapped in Ultramar for however long it took the Ruinstorm to dissipate.

[Legatus]

Guilliman would often speak his mind in front of the other Primarchs, if he felt somethng was out of order. So I don't think there was any danger of him keeping troubling issues bottled up.

[Kol Saresk]

Troubling issues, no. Emotions, yes.

 

[DarthMarko]

Kicking WB ass left and right, up and down, across Ultramar, I bet.

You see the irony in that sentence ?

[Captain Idaho]

Yes it made him very human when he lost his temper talking to Lorgar. Whether he would have persued Lorgar over "the mission" is difficult to say, likely it's dependent on the author and plot intent of the BL team.

 

I wouldn't say he was mentally damaged though, that might be taking things too far. Certainly he does bottle things up though but it's more likely he'll make a rash decision which will be costly. Probably what will happen when he confronts Fulgrim.

[Kol Saresk]

I wouldn't say that he persued his own interests over "the mission" either. Just that his own interests clouded what he thought "the mission" was.

 

Hmm, don't exactly recall suggesting he was mentally damaged, just that if and when he exploded, he would become one of the most unpredictable Primarchs out there. Even Lorgar was surprised when he saw Gulliman at Angron's homeworld.

[Veteran Sergeant]

dont you mean emperors children and horus didnt want to be warmaster- guilliman always felt it should be him hes the worst just because he had more victories then any of them doesnt mean they are and why did you reckon the ultramarine had mor victories and still had the most warriors because his warrior barely bled their more bureaucrats then warriors cant argue with me on that one

they have improved now

 

and he rubs in alpharius how many victories he has i mean thats a low blow because alpharius was the last to be found of course he couldnt compete against that

The punctuation, grammar, and diction gods all weep at this post.

 

 

Guilliman is definitely the most often misunderstood of the primarchs. I definitely agree with Idaho's suggestion that Guilliman's lack of perceptible empathy was what made him less desirable as warmaster. A war leader like that needs to be a great personality. Guilliman was obviously not that. At least to his brothers.

 

As an aside, the incident on Monarchia had nothing to do with Guilliman. That was Lorgar throwing a tantrum because he was humiliated in front of the brother he believed that the Emperor loved far more than him. Lorgar couldn't lash out at the Emperor though, because he still worshiped him as a god at that point. Thus he let out his anger and frustration on Guilliman. Guilliman, far more measured and reasonable, chose not to retaliate. He may have even recognized that beating down Lorgar wouldn't have taught him a lesson, only caused him to behave even worse.

 

And Guilliman certainly carried out Monarchia with a level of extreme restraint that other primarchs may not have, and that was probably precisely why the Emperor chose him. Imagine if he'd set the Space Wolves or World Eaters loose on Monarchia. Guilliman was instructed to destroy the planet's cathedrals and cities, not its people. He took time and effort to evacuate the civilian populace before carrying out his orders. We're not talking about anything like the "I vas juss following orderss" that was suggested.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Look at the temper Gulliman displayed at and after Calth. Then again, maybe it wasn't that Gulliman was unreadable, but more like he kept everything inside. And the Emperor thought that maybe Gulliman was like a keg of dynamite that was constantly being filled up, just waiting to explode and he just didn't want to see what would happen when Gulliman did explode.

Guilliman had every right to be angry after Calth. On the other hand, I don't see any behavior that could be categorized as a "temper". He didn't know about the betrayal at Isstvan. Pursuing Lorgar was what he was supposed to do, since Lorgar was a traitor. While Calth might have made it "personal", at the same time, there was nothing about chasing down the Word Bearers that was out of the ordinary.

[Kol Saresk]

Wasn't saying he had no right to be angry. Although he did know about Istvaan. Lorgar told him. Granted, the facts he received were distorted(Lorgar telling him that Corax and Vulcan were dead.). But he didn't just pursue Lorgar. He had an entire Segmentum to defend. Yet here are the two deployments of troops that we know of; The first being that chased Lorgar and Angron with Gulliman at the lead which skipped every single other attack on Ultramar as from Butcher's Nails and Betrayer, we know that the XVII and XII Legions were spread throughout Ultramar. Yet instead of going to whatever force was closest to Calth(or even just selecting a weaker force) he went after the force that was several thousand Astartes strong, had two Primarchs and a ship of unknown classification but known to have superior weaponry, as displayed at Armatura and in The Battle for the Abyss.

 

The second was the Iron Hands detachment that the Lion encountered in The Lion. Apparently they were found after Calth, but it is unknown where in the timeline the events in The Lion correlate with the events in Know No Fear, Butcher's Nails and Betrayer. It is very possible that they went into Ultramar after Calth, had long range communications with Gulliman, were sent to that planet whose name I am forgetting, but were then unable to come back to Ultramar due to the Ruinstorm. Don't know. At least, I don't.

 

But yes, jumping from the beginning of the line and going all the way to the end of the line when he could have attacked somewhere in the middle and actually halted Lorgar's plan to ascend Angron and create the Ruinstorm is a good sign of anger clouding his judgement, even if it didn't cloud his keen sense of tactics.(in Betrayer, Lotarra commented on how whoever organized the attacking enemy fleet was definitely a strategist.)

[Veteran Sergeant]

I dunno, if you feel like you have the ability to chop the head off of the beast, or two beasts at once, might as well. After all, Guilliman had every reason to believe he was the vastly superior general. Defeat Lorgar and Angron, and their Legions fragment. Can always mop them up later.

 

And I think you're possibly making timeline assumptions though. It's entirely possible, in fact probable, that Guilliman attacked Lorgar and Angron as soon as he was able. After all, he had to win at Calth, organize the survivors, scrape together a fleet, and then figure out where Lorgar was at and catch up with him. The "choice" to attack there may have had nothing to do with judgment, good or bad.

[Wade Garrett]

Re: Monarchia

(And for the record, KHUR was the planet that was scourged with typical XIII thoroughness until it could no longer support civilization , Monarchia was the capital city of the planet)

 

My reading of events leads me to believe that Lorgar legitimately saw disgust and contempt in Guilliman's eyes, but he misread the whys and wherefores of it.

 

Look at it from Rob's point of view: He's just had to burn an Imperial planet because his little brother screwed up. Given the Ultramarines's reputation for victories with less collateral damage, this whole thing has to be like ashes and posion in his mouth. Then said brother turns up, the brother who signed the death warrant for this loyal world, and he's wailing and raging and you think Rob isn't feeling disgusted with the galaxy in general and Lorgar in particular?

 

Also "You have always had an active imagination"? Really, Rob? What's next, asking Magnus how his depth perception is? Telling Fulgrim his armor makes him look fat? Wanting to know if Ferrous's arms make going to the bathroom awkward?

[Kol Saresk]

It is possible, except that we don't exactly know the exact timeline between Armatura and Nuceria. Just that Armatura was during Calth(if we go by the fact that Erebus retreated when Calth was finishing up and showed up after Armatura but before they left for Nuceria. And the Iron Hands in The Lion did say that they were following Gulliman's orders. And we know from Savage Weapons that that is somewhere in the range of two years after Istvaan V, if I do recall correctly.

 

Now, while I don't know exactly how the Ruinstorm works other than it stops travel between Ultramar an the rest of the Imperium, so it is a rather somewhat logical assumption that it also disrupts communication.

 

Now, I also don't know how long it takes for two Legions that are split into several big enough forces to raze a total of 100 worlds to the ground in succession, but since these are worlds of Ultramar, I'd imagine that these forces couldn't be too small either so by a conservative estimate, I'd say about three months at least, and about six-eight months at most, not counting the amount of time spent travellig from one battlefront to the other. Which I believe Betrayer makes mention of there being a few pit stops between Armatura and Nuceria.

 

So yes, you could say that I am making assumptions of the timeline, but my personal assumptions are a mix between the timeline and the exact nature of the Ruinstorm through what I see to be logical deduction based on the information I have and am able to recall at any point and time, which I will be the first to admit is not the entirety of the published Horus Heresy, regardless of the publisher.

[Kol Saresk]

Wade, only Monarchia was laid to waste as it was the capital city. It was the crown jewel in the circlet that was the prime achievement of all that the Word Bearers had accomplished. That was the jewel the Emperor groud beneath his boots. It was Gulliman's misfortune to be the pair the Emperor was wearing that day.

 

Of course, now I got a really stupid song stuck in my head.

[Captain Idaho]

I wouldn't say that he persued his own interests over "the mission" either. Just that his own interests clouded what he thought "the mission" was.

 

Hmm, don't exactly recall suggesting he was mentally damaged, just that if and when he exploded, he would become one of the most unpredictable Primarchs out there. Even Lorgar was surprised when he saw Gulliman at Angron's homeworld.

 

Well it's a fair assumption to make that anger could cloud his judgement. Actually believe some of the mistakes he will make will be because of it.

 

Hard to say attacking 2 Legions command at once was a wrong move, since it could pay off nicely though the risk was high. If he stood a reasonable chance of success and failure didn't ruin everything then it's not a bad move.

[Kol Saresk]

Except that in this case, failure meant the creation of the Ruinstorm. Granted, that was probably something Gulliman wasn't aware of. But considering it was suggested that it was a decent length trip between Armatura and Nuceria, I have to wonder just how many worlds Gulliman passed up that he could have been saving and how saving even one could kill a decent portion of either/both Legion(s) and stop the Ruinstorm in its tracks. But that is personal supposition. You may indeed be right that it was better to risk everything in a glorious charge, only to live and see the price of failure.

[Veteran Sergeant]

If he doesn't know about it, how can it in any way factor into his decision making process?

 

You need to be careful of mixing information that we know as players with the information that the characters have reasonable access to. For Guilliman, the creation of the Ruinstorm and the possibility of Angron's descension to daemonhood are totally foreign concepts. To him, he was tracking down two inferior generals who had turned traitor, and it was his duty to find them and stop them.

 

Cutting the head off of the leadership is far more important than dealing with all of the individual small forces. That's just basic strategy though. Lorgar and Angron were orchestrating the attacks. Stopping the overall campaign is going to have a much higher priority than just stopping individual attacks, as a general rule.