Avoiding challenges

[jb7090]

It's sweet when your biker lord of khorn with the axe of blind fury charges a unit of guardsmen and gets 7+ s6 ap2 attacks, however if he gets tied up in challenges against sarges or commisars then he can realistically be taken out of combat for 2 turns easy. Im curious on people's thoughts on proper positioning of our IC's and sarges. Since we must issue challenges, I am interested in any tactic to get my tooled up lord swinging into the troops instead of being tied up killing sarges.

 

http://www.ironfistleague.com/forums/Warha...ng-a-challenge/

 

http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/11/i-am-not-...lenges-in-6e-2/

[zyl-]

Since we can only do one challenge per turn in combat, they key is to have two characters that can challenge in a unit. For instance, put Typhus in a small group of terminators (which comes with an obligatory champion). It is now possible to keep Typhus in the main of the mele while your terminator champion dukes it out with the puny challengers, and Typhus avoids becoming a spawn. I don't have the codex with me, but since almost all other squads come with an aspiring champion of some kind, this should be equally possible with the biker group you described. Have a little guy accept the challenge, which he can probably win just as easily, and your lord gets to rampage through the rest of the troops. The fact that we must accept doesn't dictate who accepts, so we can get around the tarpit for our HQs.

[Agent Purple]

That's probably the only reliable way to do it. Bike lord is probably being aggressive, and keeping him behind to try and have him unengaged at the start of the fight sub phase might backfire on you horribly and result in your lord not even being able to attack. If you have no other character, you're only going to get 1 round in with your lord anyways before he gets challenge locked by IG blob squad mass characters anyways.

 

Having the majority your CC killing power on one character model is an unfortunate downside of our new crapdex, especially with the newer, dumber, close combat rules in 6th ed (not that this wasn't the case with gav's crapdex either). Having no real hammer CC unit kind of sucks.

[zyl-]

We DO have a hammer CC unit, but no one wants to pay the cost of a Tzeentch Daemon Prince with wings, power armor, the Black Mace, and biomancy. Note: even in a challenge situation, the black mace can force toughness tests within 3", so you can still damage a blob squad possibly to the point of retreat in round 1.

[Agent Purple]

When I said unit, I meant a squad rather than a character (like DP). Chaos lords are pretty good in CC as well, but their squads are basically ablative wounds.

[zyl-]

Just because you don't run your lord in a squad of mutilators.

 

 

(joking)

[Deadman Wade]

It's sweet when your biker lord of khorn with the axe of blind fury charges a unit of guardsmen and gets 7+ s6 ap2 attacks, however if he gets tied up in challenges against sarges or commisars then he can realistically be taken out of combat for 2 turns easy. Im curious on people's thoughts on proper positioning of our IC's and sarges. Since we must issue challenges, I am interested in any tactic to get my tooled up lord swinging into the troops instead of being tied up killing sarges.

All these challenges really bother me only when I face a dreadknight or some nasty melee HQ. Against IG any squad champion with power weapon does well in challenges, while Lord with the rest of the squad killing regular guardsmen and then sweeping advances all that's left. Against SM you might want to fight sargeants with your lord to get an easy victory without a risk of losing a champion (mine always comes with power weapon). Also, Brand of Skalathrax does wonders to massed infantry, there's a chance of killing enemy characters before assaulting.

[Agent Purple]

Also a chance of knocking yourself out of charge range with the BB as well though... Can never tell in randomhammer 40k.

[Excessus]

The included champion is one reason why Bikes > Spawn as lord retinues in CSM! B)

[jansuza]

I run a squad of bikes along with a couple of other fast-moving CC elements such as a Juggerlord with Spawn. If ever it looks as if a challenge will be really deterimental to the combat, I use the bike champ to suck it up so that my character can go to town.

 

The exception to this rule, as mentioned before, is my prince with Black Mace, where challenges are actually in his favour. Challenge turn one, murder the poor acceptee, then kill off an additional 1/3 or 1/2 of the squad (depending on the stats), then the next turn, kill off the rest and watch them run away. Rinse and repeat.

[Fibonacci]

I don't understand the problem. I consider it a good thing if my CC squads stay in combat through my opponent's shooting phase and finish them off in their assault phase. It's the perfect way to run them.

[Polaria]

I don't understand the problem. I consider it a good thing if my CC squads stay in combat through my opponent's shooting phase and finish them off in their assault phase. It's the perfect way to run them.

 

You still might want to have champion to take the unnecessary challenge for the cases where you cannot be sure you will get through the squad on enemy shooting turn or late in the game where you might actually need to finish your combats quickly and consolidate towards objective before the game ends.

[Excessus]

I don't understand the problem. I consider it a good thing if my CC squads stay in combat through my opponent's shooting phase and finish them off in their assault phase. It's the perfect way to run them.

Because if you end up in an IG blob, they will have six characters(turns) to challenge you...

[derpasaurus]

i've said this countless times before, and someone else here said it, just now.

 

i only hate challenging dreadknights and demon princes with my little champs. what the hell is that about, anyway?

 

but seriously, yeah. i have to challenge that poor sarge moving on i3 with my power sword on i 4/5. oops, i got +1 attack/toughness/wound, etc for an easy kill. how sad. free stuff. so i'm stuck in a series of challenges? i just get more rewards for every guardsman i slaughter. and they don't have to accept, just because we have to issue. so if they wanna keep their little guy alive, he doesn't get to come to the party and my champion/lord gets to go buck wild on his platoon instead. i don't usually find it a problem unless it's something stupid like above.

[techsoldaten]

Instead of the Khorne Axe, bring the black mace with your biker lord. Accept the challenge, put the models so that a bunch of his are within 3 inches. You will hit the challenger with at least one attack and the cursed rule will take out some number of your opponents who are not in the challenge. This usually forces a leadership test on it's own.

 

Seriously, 9/10ths of the time, I don't need more than a round of cc with my bikers.

[Kol Saresk]

And using the Black Mace also circumvents having to roll on the table unless you fight a one wound character doesn't it? Since the character doesn't get killed?

[Lieutenant Steel]

But Derpasaurus, the point would be wasting the killing potential of a tooled up lord, on only one model per turn. Sure your Lord will get to be ridiculously good, but what does it matter when such a small number of points is holding up a large chunk of yours?

 

You: "Yay, my Lord is an invincible killing machine, getting one kill per turn for the rest of the game..."

Opponent: "Too bad he won't be doing anything while I kill the rest of your army..."

[Kol Saresk]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the situation is when the lord gets stuck in a challenge against a squad's IC right? So the Lord isn't just killing the IC, but the squad as well, assuming he kills everything he gets into CC with. So that's more than one model, that's an entire unit. That is damaging isn't it?

[derpasaurus]

don't the challenge's wounds carry over to the combat as a whole, tho? like, say my 6 attack on a charge tooled up dude challenges the sarge and wounds him 4 times, then my squads normal combat goes and say i do 10 more wounds. so they have ... i dunno, 10 guys left, they do say 4 wounds. they lose combat by 10, right? so they're not tied up if they have to roll deuces to stay in combat, they either break or i sweep them. so my lord killing one guy actually helped kill the whole squad indirectly.

 

if i'm wrong please tell me because i've been boning myself and my friends otherwise. lol

[Jacinda]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the situation is when the lord gets stuck in a challenge against a squad's IC right? So the Lord isn't just killing the IC, but the squad as well, assuming he kills everything he gets into CC with. So that's more than one model, that's an entire unit. That is damaging isn't it?

 

No.

 

In a challenge, it is just one on one. Exrta wounds do not carry over from challenge to squads nor squads to challenge.

 

[quoting the wrong bits ...]

[Kol Saresk]

Not trying to say they were. But after the challenge, the squad will still be there. It still has to be dealt with in some fashion, doesn't it?

[menzer1013]

On page 5 of the BRB FAQ, it states that excess wounds cannot be allocated to the squad. But my understanding is the rest of the squads are in CC so they can attack each other and the following turn, the champion can attack if he is not challenged again.

[derpasaurus]

ah, thanks. i guess me and my circle missed a faqs somewhere then, somehow. that makes a bit more sense, lol.

we've been playing it wrong, but we've been playing it consistent, so the only winners have been fearless people, and they always win, even if they lose. ;) i was thinking that it didn't make much sense, unless the excess losses would have been considered the dudes getting terribly demoralized while their boss's sword bounces off the leg of the giant silver deathmachine and them watching him get pasted by a force sword the size of a small pickup truck.

 

this should help me a bit, as the challenges we lost tended to be the real deal breakers in our combats.

[Kol Saresk]

But my understanding is the rest of the squads are in CC so they can attack each other and the following turn, the champion can attack if he is not challenged again.

This is what I was talking about. After the challenege is over, there is still a squad to kill. Both squads should still be locked in combat which means the next turn when the lord isn't locked in a challenge, he can add his weight to the melee.

[Kol Saresk]

Something just hit me about the Black Mace. It forces all non-vehicle enemy models within 3" of the bearer to take a Toughness test. If a Black Mace user wins a challenge, it has the potential to remove one wound from every enemy model in three inches.