Dark Angels Rumors and Chaos Faildex...

[LordRoY]

Just looking around the 'net and seeing all the DA rumors and all the nice things they are probably gonna get in their new codex is making me furious.

 

I am a lifetime chaos player... been so since 1989-ish. I have really loved collecting and playing with my 40k, fantasy, epic, etc... figures... but after our 6th edition codex was released I felt... betrayed... but then it was said "Well it is the first codex for 6th edition, all the following editions will be in line with the chaos 'dex"... then the DA rumors start dropping, and I realize they are just that... rumors but if even half of them are true, I will be putting my miniatures back in the closet til 7th edition.

 

Look at our codex, really. Every single entry, every one, is trumped by some other codex somewhere, usually by a loyalist chapter. There is nothing that we are GREAT at... except being mundane. IMHO our best unit is nurgle marked bikers, but even they are flawed, and I am sure the Ravenwing Bikes will be better in every way (we may have a bit of extra toughness, but I am sure they will have something even better). I just look at our beautiful codex and shake my head. The only thing that gives me hope is that the upcoming daemons codex will give us enough solid units to ally with that I can feel confident that chaos will be somewhat competitive in the current meta.

 

Anyone else feel this way. The DA codex isn't even dropped yet, and I already dread it and feel we are lost.

[Kol Saresk]

Faildex? So we're on the edition written by Gav Thorpe? The one that's been so nerfed that even Lash of Submission, our only good thing, barely even works like it used to? Wow. No wonder everyone is depressed. Maybe we should just go Space Wolves or Blood Angels. Or maybe even count-as Necrons.

[Agent Purple]

We might as well be. New dex gave us exactly none of the things we wanted (legions, cult terminators, maybe some units that can actually compete with loyalists in terms of deathstar capability or cost effective firepower (in other than HS slot)), and exchanged one gimmick (lash) for a new one (baledrake). Cost effective unit went from being DP to nurgle bikes. Nothing that really closes the power gap between Chaos and IG/SW/GK Otherwise it's basically the same, mediocre, codex. Polished turd is still a turd.

[Iron Warrior w/ Servo Arm]

We might as well be. New dex gave us exactly none of the things we wanted (legions, cult terminators, maybe some units that can actually compete with loyalists in terms of deathstar capability or cost effective firepower (in other than HS slot)), and exchanged one gimmick (lash) for a new one (baledrake). Cost effective unit went from being DP to nurgle bikes. Nothing that really closes the power gap between Chaos and IG/SW/GK Otherwise it's basically the same, mediocre, codex. Polished turd is still a turd.

 

Why not play with the 3.5 dex? In friendly games it's still all right.

 

I really wish GW would shift from SM to IG and make them overpowered. I would love to see more IG armies.

 

Back on topic though, it's fine. I was angry when the Gav codex came out. Since then I just stop worrying. They :cussed up chaos completely with the loss of Daemons and well, everything else. It will take years before we even get back to where we started.

[Kol Saresk]

Not all of us want Legions. Not all of us want a single unit to take place of an army. So no.

 

Also, I will say this. When the rumors of our Codex were being released, the atmosphere was exactly like it was for the DA Codex. Exactly. Everything was going to be awesome, we're über-cool minis and all of our unit are going to be able to beat up of the Grey Knights like bullies in a sandbox. Now everyone is depressed. Just keep that in mind. Not saying it will be what happens, but if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck an turned out to be a duck once before...

[Agent Purple]

I don't think you can expect to go to game stores for pickup games and be allowed to use 3.5. Dosen't fix any problems if you are a tournament player.

 

IG are pretty overpowered. They have excellent flyers, can blob, can get mass cheap barrage weapons to snipe with, have battle brother ally with ATSKNF armies, can play meta and overwhelm the board with AV14 and have enough cheap bodies to bubble wrap, have excellent anti-horde (now popular) with the manticore etc...

[Agent Purple]

Not all of us want Legions. Not all of us want a single unit to take place of an army. So no.

 

Also, I will say this. When the rumors of our Codex were being released, the atmosphere was exactly like it was for the DA Codex. Exactly. Everything was going to be awesome, we're über-cool minis and all of our unit are going to be able to beat up of the Grey Knights like bullies in a sandbox. Now everyone is depressed. Just keep that in mind. Not saying it will be what happens, but if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck an turned out to be a duck once before...

 

So you're perfectly fine with essentially being SM/SW -1, but with a couple cheap tricks to make up for it? Outside of baledrakes and a couple wargear item/HQ combinations, and zombie spam, the chaos codex is basically completely redundant because you can do everything else with a loyalist dex and have it be objectively better.

 

It would have taken them less than a page to make a legion/warband tactics rule (don't want legions, don't buy legion character). They could have easily made VOTLW provide fearless or stubborn instead of +1 lD to stop non-cult units from being so unreliable. Loyalists get 3 land raider variants, but we can't get cult terminators?

 

We'll have to see for DA. I haven't seen any points costs for most of their units so its hard to judge. DA will be a completely new army, though, that much is plain. It sounds like new codex rather than a make-over. Even if DA are balanced, that dosen't stop the crapdex from being a SW/GK punching bag for the next 3+ years.

[Kol Saresk]

So you're perfectly fine with essentially being SM/SW -1, but with a couple cheap tricks to make up for it?

Perfectly? no. nothing has, is or ever will be perfect. But fine? more than most. I like having a challenge. I like a win not being easy thing to do. As someone who could sit on his butt and never study and never pay attention in school and still walk out with a higher Grade Point Average than some of the IB students(specifically more than half of them), yes I would like a challenge. I do agree that we could use some more options. But more does not mean equal to Grey Knights.

 

And I'm sorry, but the Legions are dead. Yes, the majority of Legion warbands can be stereotyped. But as a Night Lords player who came in the wake of the last batch of Legion lists, I am not going to be defined by a set expectation of having to have a Raptor Legion. So good riddance to those. And no, we don't need Cult Terminators. We need better options in order to make our Terminators fit better. If every other army can deal with having one Terminator unit that is customizable, we can too. Besides, trading more customization on one unit instead of getting a total of five units no one is going to like anyways since they're not TH/SS Termies cuts down on paper and therefore the cost of the Codex. Could somethings be done to make the Codex better by simply adding a few options here or there and maybe(big emphasis on maybe) tweaking a rule here or a rule there and maybe adding a +1 to this stat or that stat on this unit or that unit? Maybe. But wanting to go back to another broken Codex whose only virtue was that is was the Grey Knights Codex of its time? Yea-no.

[zyl-]

Saying that "Every single entry, every one, is trumped by some other codex somewhere, usually by a loyalist chapter." is actually pretty expected for me. The reason being is that the very statement is true of nearly any codex. If our codex were the best at everything, it'd be plain out stupid. Being the best at 1 thing is enough things to be the best at, and being competative at a few things may be even better.

 

Not saying I agree that our codex is altogether fantastic, but it is the only one that fields monsterous creatures alongside power armor, gives as many bike options, fields daemon engines, has the cheapest lascannons.. I mean we do have some things going for us. Not things like Cron Air, or skyshield parking lots, or grey hunters, but the gimmick armies aren't exactly praiseworthy. I think tally list still works if you really want a stupid build, and I highly suspect that a new daemons codex will revolutionize how chaos is played (since it would be a profoundly effective way for GW to sell models).

 

I do dread a MeQ plasmadex, though. It plays far too well with the current meta.

[LordRoY]

Saying that "Every single entry, every one, is trumped by some other codex somewhere, usually by a loyalist chapter." is actually pretty expected for me. The reason being is that the very statement is true of nearly any codex. If our codex were the best at everything, it'd be plain out stupid. Being the best at 1 thing is enough things to be the best at, and being competative at a few things may be even better.

 

I dont want our codex to to make us the best at EVERYTHING, but I would like to have something that we are really great at. Our Bezerkers are not even worth playing anymore. T-Sons are all but worthless. Our terminators run away (slowly). Our tanks are all the same, and not worth taking. A nurgle force is about the only thing worth putting on the board, the other 3 gods have really little to offer. Basically I see a Typhus (with nurgle marked retinue) + Nurgle Lord (on bike with bike squad retinue), 2x Plague marine units, 2x Nurgle Marked CSM units, 2x Zombie blob units, 2x Nurgle Havoc units (with some combination of AC and/or ML-Flakk), 2x Helldrake, and then Epidemius (with plague bearer retinue) allies in a tally list to become the standard chaos list to be used. I basically have to start from scratch since I have been a Khorne/Tzeentch player.

 

We do have some nice units, but again, none of them make the grade when compared to anyone else. Cant we just have one unit to center our armies on? Cult terminators would have been a good choice, or making chosen able to take terminator armor/become cult terminators would have been great. Having units that didnt run away unless babysat would be great too, I hate feeling I have an entire army of cowards. How about flesh out the cultists with things like grenade launchers and give them some mobility/survivability with some chimeras troop transports? So many things would have made our codex better, and while it is pretty, I am | | close to just packing it all up again for years (which I did before).

[Agent Purple]

So you're perfectly fine with essentially being SM/SW -1, but with a couple cheap tricks to make up for it?

Perfectly? no. nothing has, is or ever will be perfect. But fine? more than most. I like having a challenge. I like a win not being easy thing to do. As someone who could sit on his butt and never study and never pay attention in school and still walk out with a higher Grade Point Average than some of the IB students(specifically more than half of them), yes I would like a challenge. I do agree that we could use some more options. But more does not mean equal to Grey Knights.

 

And I'm sorry, but the Legions are dead. Yes, the majority of Legion warbands can be stereotyped. But as a Night Lords player who came in the wake of the last batch of Legion lists, I am not going to be defined by a set expectation of having to have a Raptor Legion. So good riddance to those. And no, we don't need Cult Terminators. We need better options in order to make our Terminators fit better. If every other army can deal with having one Terminator unit that is customizable, we can too. Besides, trading more customization on one unit instead of getting a total of five units no one is going to like anyways since they're not TH/SS Termies cuts down on paper and therefore the cost of the Codex. Could somethings be done to make the Codex better by simply adding a few options here or there and maybe(big emphasis on maybe) tweaking a rule here or a rule there and maybe adding a +1 to this stat or that stat on this unit or that unit? Maybe. But wanting to go back to another broken Codex whose only virtue was that is was the Grey Knights Codex of its time? Yea-no.

 

3.5ed chaos was good, but other armies were good in that era too. Like mech eldar with the unkillable grav tanks and starcannon spam, dark angel plas/plas razorback armies, 6x devastator marine armies, etc...

 

I played nightlords in 3.5ed as well. I didn't usually run raptors, but I did take infiltrate/stealth and deamonic visages. Way better than the current dex. If you are going to play nightlords (god shunning), the new dex is especially bad since MoN on oblits is a no brainer, marked lords are way better than unmarked lords (Ax, T5, 3+ inv), hell-drakes are demonic, infantry on the whole is subpar etc... You could make a representative army, but you'd either be crapping out counts-as BS or would be playing with an underpowered list.

[Kol Saresk]

Well if our Berzerkers truly have nothing to offer then I suggest someone run over to the Throne of Skulls forum and tell them to not worry about 40K until something new develops because they are coming up with 'Zerker lists and according to them, they are doing pretty decent. Of course, I'll never know if that's true or not since I'm not going for a 'Zerker list.

[Agent Purple]

Saying that "Every single entry, every one, is trumped by some other codex somewhere, usually by a loyalist chapter." is actually pretty expected for me. The reason being is that the very statement is true of nearly any codex. If our codex were the best at everything, it'd be plain out stupid. Being the best at 1 thing is enough things to be the best at, and being competative at a few things may be even better.

 

Not saying I agree that our codex is altogether fantastic, but it is the only one that fields monsterous creatures alongside power armor, gives as many bike options, fields daemon engines, has the cheapest lascannons.. I mean we do have some things going for us. Not things like Cron Air, or skyshield parking lots, or grey hunters, but the gimmick armies aren't exactly praiseworthy. I think tally list still works if you really want a stupid build, and I highly suspect that a new daemons codex will revolutionize how chaos is played (since it would be a profoundly effective way for GW to sell models).

 

I do dread a MeQ plasmadex, though. It plays far too well with the current meta.

 

Its not so much that every unit in the book is trumped in some other codex somewhere (which would be expected), but by and large a lot of the potential 'builds' you could put together with chaos (like all the MEQ infantry heavy ones) are just straight up worse than if you built the equivalent army with SM/BA/SW. No morale boost equivalent to ATSKNF really, really sucks. Losing it alone is not nearly worth the 10-15 points we save compared to loyalist units. Snipable icon dosen't help much either.

 

Essentially all the 'chaos marine' (chosen, terminators, havocs etc...) units, that you would expect a chaos space marine army to be built around, as basically their loyalist counterparts less 3 special rules and with a 1 or 2 point reduction to make up for it. In exchange, you get a bunch of cost-ineffective options. At this point, outside of the baledrake, and a few HQ units, why play chaos? What advantages / play styles does it bring to the table that you couldn't get elsewhere with SM/BA/SW? Practically nothing - and that's the problem.

[Iron Warrior w/ Servo Arm]

Its not so much that every unit in the book is trumped in some other codex somewhere (which would be expected), but by and large a lot of the potential 'builds' you could put together with chaos (like all the MEQ infantry heavy ones) are just straight up worse than if you built the equivalent army with SM/BA/SW. No morale boost equivalent to ATSKNF really, really sucks. Losing it alone is not nearly worth the 10-15 points we save compared to loyalist units. Snipable icon dosen't help much either.

 

Essentially all the 'chaos marine' (chosen, terminators, havocs etc...) units, that you would expect a chaos space marine army to be built around, as basically their loyalist counterparts less 3 special rules and with a 1 or 2 point reduction to make up for it. In exchange, you get a bunch of cost-ineffective options. At this point, outside of the baledrake, and a few HQ units, why play chaos? What advantages / play styles does it bring to the table that you couldn't get elsewhere with SM/BA/SW? Practically nothing - and that's the problem.

 

Do it for the modelling!

[Brother Ambroz]

Do it for the modelling!

 

That's what I do. Well, I haven't quite given up on this current codex yet but if DA proves to be the powerhouse the rumors say then I will be purely painting and modeling.

[Yogi]

Use Space wolf codex. Change "Wolf" for "Chaos/Hell/Renegade/Khorne". Done. Its acceptable to loot Loyalist gear.

 

Other wise enjoy the roleplaying ability of playing chaos and being bitter, betrayed and angry. lol.

 

Every time you lose a game add a chaos spawn to your army. That new spawn is your old Lord. I heard Spawn are good now might help.

[Kol Saresk]

Use Space wolf codex. Change "Wolf" for "Chaos/Hell/Renegade/Khorne". Done. Its acceptable to loot Loyalist gear. Be honest and admit you switched armies.

:rolleyes:

[Yogi]

Haha kol. All the Space marine codexes are so interchangeable it doesn't even matter.

[Kol Saresk]

I'd say it matters if there are interchangeable codices that people choose to avoid in favor of other codices. It would mean that they're not interchangeable as that would say they are unequal.

[Yogi]

I agree they are unequal. But you can literally make a DIY space marine chapter and play every marine codex bar grey knights. I figured that made them interchangeable.

[Kol Saresk]

Some people play the GK codex with DIY Chapters. And some choose to play Sons of Malice and Relictors with that Codex too.

[Yogi]

The best case for codex switching I heard was Tsons as Necrons (the old codex, I don't know what they have now). All is Dust guys are necron warriors, sorcs are lords, a big floating pyramid is totally Tzeentch. I have never seen that though.

[Vesper]

So you're perfectly fine with essentially being SM/SW -1, but with a couple cheap tricks to make up for it?

Perfectly? no. nothing has, is or ever will be perfect. But fine? more than most. I like having a challenge. I like a win not being easy thing to do. As someone who could sit on his butt and never study and never pay attention in school and still walk out with a higher Grade Point Average than some of the IB students(specifically more than half of them), yes I would like a challenge. I do agree that we could use some more options. But more does not mean equal to Grey Knights.

 

And I'm sorry, but the Legions are dead. Yes, the majority of Legion warbands can be stereotyped. But as a Night Lords player who came in the wake of the last batch of Legion lists, I am not going to be defined by a set expectation of having to have a Raptor Legion. So good riddance to those. And no, we don't need Cult Terminators. We need better options in order to make our Terminators fit better. If every other army can deal with having one Terminator unit that is customizable, we can too. Besides, trading more customization on one unit instead of getting a total of five units no one is going to like anyways since they're not TH/SS Termies cuts down on paper and therefore the cost of the Codex. Could somethings be done to make the Codex better by simply adding a few options here or there and maybe(big emphasis on maybe) tweaking a rule here or a rule there and maybe adding a +1 to this stat or that stat on this unit or that unit? Maybe. But wanting to go back to another broken Codex whose only virtue was that is was the Grey Knights Codex of its time? Yea-no.

 

3.5ed chaos was good, but other armies were good in that era too. Like mech eldar with the unkillable grav tanks and starcannon spam, dark angel plas/plas razorback armies, 6x devastator marine armies, etc...

 

I played nightlords in 3.5ed as well. I didn't usually run raptors, but I did take infiltrate/stealth and deamonic visages. Way better than the current dex. If you are going to play nightlords (god shunning), the new dex is especially bad since MoN on oblits is a no brainer, marked lords are way better than unmarked lords (Ax, T5, 3+ inv), hell-drakes are demonic, infantry on the whole is subpar etc... You could make a representative army, but you'd either be crapping out counts-as BS or would be playing with an underpowered list.

 

I've been saying that for ages (well, months), but Kol seems to really want 3.5 to be the C:GK of its time for some reason. When in the 3rd/4th ed meta it was fine. I guess he's comparing 3.5 to the Gavdex or something, only reason I can come up with.

[Kol Saresk]

It's not a matter of "want." It's a matter of "is." It's not "3.5 Chaos was the only good army." Just as 5th Ed GK is not the only current good army. It was simply one of the more broken, powerhouse armies. Was it powerful? Yes. Was it viable? Yes. Was it broken? Yes.

 

Also, if comparing a current edition to a bad edition is a no-no, then why are we posting on a thread that is comparing the current codex to past editions?

[Vesper]

It's not a matter of "want." It's a matter of "is." It's not "3.5 Chaos was the only good army." Just as 5th Ed GK is not the only current good army. It was simply one of the more broken, powerhouse armies. Was it powerful? Yes. Was it viable? Yes. Was it broken? Yes.

 

Broken you say ? Nah.

Take Warp Quake, something that, litterally, potentially mean that your Daemon buddy who brought his army to your house to play a game, will not be able to put a single model on the table, that is the point where the game breaks.

3.5 wasn't broken. In fact, its strongest build (daemon bomb) wasn't as strong as the Eldar Circus, for example (and those damn antigrav tanks...). Some people (read "teh internets") disliked it and whined it was imbalanced and such. But it wasn't the case. They hated it because it had tons of viable builds (not viable because they were op, viable because they had the potential to be decent in every orientation the Chaos player wanted (and the Legions lists helped doing that)). And that's the reason why I consider it the best codex ever printed, even if it wasn't as strong as Eldar or Tyranids or whatever. It was viable, fun, diverse and it tried to make people play fluffy. I've never asked for more.

But, once again, maybe you're suffering from a point of view biais, as your experience is based on the gavdex. There was a time in 40k's history when having a non crippled codex wasn't instantly being op. Because, let's face it, the actual dev team is pretty awful.