pivich Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 what do you expect from guys who lost TWICE to Dark Angels in last 2 WD's ? :) anyway reading *cough* rumors i feel frustration and a little rage why phil oh why ? ;( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Well, I haven't had the opportunity to read through it, but it seems very interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 what do you expect from guys who lost TWICE to Dark Angels in last 2 WD's ? anyway reading *cough* rumors i feel frustration and a little rage why phil oh why ? ;( Because I think the actual dev team does not understand Chaos like the former one. For them, CSM are, according to the codex, spiky marines with four flavour (that were rushed, wink-wink thousand sons), and they're ALL looking for the favour of the Chaos gods without any common sense, hence the awesome Champion of Chaos rules. Also, funny thing is that our marines are codex compilant, which is hilarious. Pretty one dimensional and bland, as I already said. I think that is overall what realistically Chaos is (even as a concept) in GW's mind these days. That is why I think Chaos was broken by the gavdex, not because we had crappy rules, but because it broke Chaos as a concept (along with the Chaos community). At the end of the day, Phil just made the codex according to what Chaos is in GW. Bland and one dimensional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 CSM and allies: 1) build CSM core list 2) realize you already spent too much pts and still havent covered all possibilities 3) cut back pts for allies 4) add allies to complete CSM shortcomings 5) realize list would be better without CSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 yeah bummer isnt it :D but on the other hand playing demons is realy fun right now . a simple change to two units gave the dex new life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I agree that the Helldrake is kind of a letdown, it can do one thing at moderate at best. But all in all the chaos marines dex is not realy a faildex, it just takes some time to figure out what works. Eg Defilers seem to work (for me at least) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Apparently playing for fun with your own army is frowned on nowadays as everyone uses counts as armies with uber Internet lists at least according to forums and some bloggers... I also wonder when the B&C will look like the B&C and whether my pic & links... I only play for fun, I don't play any tournaments at all (though some players in my group play tournament style). We play a campaign which is readable online (Google: Aleph Sector; first result). I'm annoyed that consistently we lose in friendly games. Friendly games are not fun if the game is a forgone conclusion. And what's happened (for example) no one wants to play any of the Necron players, why? because it's not fun, you might as well pack away you models. And at times I think that for Chaos. I'm having an uphill struggle no matter what, unless I play a bent list (try finding that) and that's not fun either. I want to play a balanced, fun list where I feel I shouldn't just pack away my models and concede to spare me two hours of frustration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 the Helldrake is kind of a letdown yet still it is THE best unit in the codex, hands down. what does that say about C:CSMeh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Apparently playing for fun with your own army is frowned on nowadays as everyone uses counts as armies with uber Internet lists at least according to forums and some bloggers... I also wonder when the B&C will look like the B&C and whether my pic & links... I only play for fun, I don't play any tournaments at all (though some players in my group play tournament style). We play a campaign which is readable online (Google: Aleph Sector; first result). I'm annoyed that consistently we lose in friendly games. Friendly games are not fun if the game is a forgone conclusion. And what's happened (for example) no one wants to play any of the Necron players, why? because it's not fun, you might as well pack away you models. And at times I think that for Chaos. I'm having an uphill struggle no matter what, unless I play a bent list (try finding that) and that's not fun either. I want to play a balanced, fun list where I feel I shouldn't just pack away my models and concede to spare me two hours of frustration. The game isn't balanced. It's not even meant to be balanced. 40k is about loyalists players having fun destroying those with crappy codices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 noticed how this WD's battle report shows ~3000pts of CSM utterly crushed by 250-500pts LESS of the new DA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Err, to me, the DA felt like they had two times more points than the CSM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordRoY Posted January 12, 2013 Author Share Posted January 12, 2013 I will love to do a side by side comparison of our Troops: CSM vs their Troops: DA. Here is a link to all the units: http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/01/12/network-news-just-the-rules-for/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 the Helldrake is kind of a letdown yet still it is THE best unit in the codex, hands down. what does that say about C:CSMeh? Thats just an oppinion you have, my oppinion about that same Helldrake is different and in my oppinion its not the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Thats just an oppinion Sure. Let's back up our opinions with arguments then: 1) the heldrake is the most resilient flyer in the game (hard to hit, armor 12, 3hp, 5++, IWND, possession) 2) the baleflamer is the most effective anti-MEQ weapon in C:CSM (torrent on flyer = limitless range, autohit, template, ignores cover, wounds on 2+, no armor) 3) the baledrake is one of only 2 units in C:CSM that are underpriced (the other is bikes, but those are per se just a loyalist C&P without ATSKNF) 4) it is the unit loyalists complain most about and I've yet to read a report where it didn't make it's pts back ERGO: IF greatness is measured in terms of effectivity per points cost, it is thus to be concluded without a doubt that the baledrake is the "best" unit in C:CSM. This doesn't mean that you have to like it, though - I for one certainly don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordRoY Posted January 12, 2013 Author Share Posted January 12, 2013 Ok, Troops CSM vs DA:Tac squad (w/veteran sergeant). Cost: CSM-(75).....DA:T-70+10(80) Profile: Same Wargear: Same Special Rules: CSM-Champion of chaos(not really worth having).....DA:T-ATSKNF,Combat Squads,Grim Resolve(all worth having) Options: CSM-13pts.....DA:T-14pts *EDIT: Please don't post up full page rule book scans like that. Long story short, for 1 point more per model, they get SOOO much more. Heavy weapons in a 5 man squad, Flakk for their missle launchers, drop pods, razorbacks, multi-meltas, plasma cannons... ATSKNF & Stubborn.... These are the kind of things that I was afraid of, that made me start this thread. Our codex is "meh" and a fail in comparison already, why bother even making lists. Imagine what we will be facing in 2-3 more codex... I am so angry I could just spit. I was soooo looking forward to playing 6th edition with CSM again, and now, I just want to put all my models back in the boxes and back in the closet. I am a sad panda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HJL Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 taking bets on how long it takes for that to get taken down. im going to say 3 minutes! I collect DA and Chaos so its all good for me lets not forget that for the same points (150) you can get a bare bones DA squad or a Chaos squad with hatred space marines, rerolling all hits on the charge in close combat and LD 10 that is a massive boost! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Deathwing Assault + Teleport homers seems really annoying . . . so much for reserve manipulation/denial (more useless warlord traits! Yay). The fact that you can choose when all of your guys come in is really powerful. Good thing chaos doesn't have anything like that . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordRoY Posted January 12, 2013 Author Share Posted January 12, 2013 lets not forget that for the same points (150) you can get a bare bones DA squad or a Chaos squad with hatred space marines, rerolling all hits on the charge in close combat and LD 10 that is a massive boost! I wasn't doing a CSM vs DA:T battle, I was comparing the two in their usefulness and playability. If you had to choose one over the other, to use as troops in an "all-comers" list, which would you choose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 rerolling all hits on the charge in close combat and LD 10 that is a massive boost! if they ever get into melee that is. it's a shooting game after all. ATSKNF > any LD. it's what seperates the posterboys from the "other factions". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 rerolling all hits on the charge in close combat and LD 10 that is a massive boost! if they ever get into melee that is. it's a shooting game after all. ATSKNF > any LD. it's what seperates the posterboys from the "other factions". Not to mention that ATSKNF makes a unit way, way, WAY more survivable in CC. Will the loyalists lose the first round of combat? Yes. Will they care? No. If they fail their LD test they have a 50% change of escaping from close combat and are free to either shoot the CSMs or even counterassault next turn. Still we knew that CSMs were overpriced from the beginning (just compare them to Grey Hunters). Seriously compared to GHs even DA tacticals are overpriced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 We need someone who plays both armies to be able to confirm what to worry about. Where's Brother Amarel? He'd be perfect for the job.... Oh Hai! Firstly, LordRoy, do you wanna take that down before a Mod does and then might be of the mind to give you a warning to boot? But onto the CSM vs DA Codex battle... I guess I should start by listing my current 1500 CSM list so as people can judge what I'm comparing to, so: Nurgle Biker Lord with LC, PF & 4++ Level 3 Biomancy Sorc with Terminator Armour, Force Axe & Power Sword. 10 x CSM with MoK, Bolter, BP, CCW & Flamers 5 x Double Plas Plagues 5 x Double Plas Plagues EDIT: 3 x Nurgle Bikers with 2 x Melta Bale Dragon 2 x Oblits 5 x Havoks with 4 x AC ADL with Quad Gun Sometimes the Sorc and Dragon get swapped out for Huron and 5 x CSMs with Melta, Combi-Melta, Rhino with H/Launcher & Combi-Melta (for Outflanking). The DA Codex, straight off of the bat has more viable builds and some are going to be nasty if you're not prepared for it. Certainly they're trickier to prepare for than CSM. Deathwing are straight up nasty shock troops that can be kitted for shooting or CC and can reliably be on you in turn 1 or can hang back. Greenwing are cheap and Stubborn to go with their ATSKNF with banners that really boost them (and those banners can go on 2+/3++ models with FNP). Ravenwing can do smash and grab with innate Hit & Run and their Knights are frighteningly good (yes, they cost the same as a DW Termie, but 4A each on the charge at S5 with Rending against a unit that they've already made -1T or -1WS & I is going to do a lot of damage, and that's ignoring the Plasma Talons). That said there are weaknesses - a lack of AP2 in melee (yes there's the odd weapon, but there's nothing like the amount available to us or even vanilla SM. Do make sure not to get caught by the Deathwing Knights, though) and the Flyers are bad (both of them. Bad). I also think that there's going to be quite a lot of unfocused armies, trying to get in as many toys as possible, and that'll lead to armies that can be picked off piecemeal. What would I do against my current CSM army? Still working on that - it's a good book to play around with. I think you'll definitely want take one of the big three Characters to unlock DW / RW as troops and then back them up with a Divination Sorc. Either the FNP banner on a DW Command Squad or the Salvo 4 bolter banner on a standard Command Squad is pretty defining for play styles and there's definitely going to be a lot of DW Knights in the early armies - even just one turn at S10 / AP1 is going to ensure that something gets wiped out before they either block things up (vs MEQ) or keep on ploughing though (vs NEQ). Raven Guard players are likely going to be happy with Shrouded Scouts and BA Allies for Assault Troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 lack of AP2 in melee besides the odd weapons, you have either TH or PF on every DW terminator...? and lots of plasma with pref enemy: CSM... is your biker lord on his own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 lack of AP2 in melee besides the odd weapons, you have either TH or PF on every DW terminator...? You're challenging them out, though*, and the HQ's don't have much access. Even a Build-Your-Own HQ can't pair PF & LC so he's down attacks on what Chaos can manage. It's a small thing, but if you can quickly get into Melee there's an okay chance to remove their Warlord (for whatever that's worth). *DW Sarge has to start with Power Sword (not Weapon, so no Axe), he can switch it to TH/SS in a Bodyguard but he will only have two attacks with 4++ (and no Instant Death) vs a Nurgle Lord in Termie Armour. But hey, I'm looking for crumbs, I realise that. Certainly it, even further, forces Nurgle as the main route for Chaos. is your biker lord on his own? Edited to add in the Nurgle Bikers I missed - no definitely not on his own (although he does, generally, jettison them by turn 3 at the latest). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 a nurgle lord with 4 attacks and AP2 at I1 shouldn't be that hard to dispose of with a DWknight sgt.: instagib with S10 at I4, survive by SS. if the biker champ challenges in his stead, use 5+ precision strikes. remaining bikes can't hurt you and will run because loss of fearless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazath Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Nurgle lord wont be instagibed because of toughness 6. still, SS may hold for pretty long time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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