Lepaca Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Isn't it -statistically speaking- better against 2+3++ models to just go massed fire? I think I'd rather having 10 sonic blasters against a unit of DW Knights than 10 CSMs with 2 plasma guns. But can anyone do the math on this? Actually I also want to say how much I HATE the fact that DA seem to be so tailored against us. And no, the fact that we can buy (for extra points) hatred (SM) does not cancel this out in any way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 And no, the fact that we can buy (for extra points) hatred (SM) does not cancel this out in any way! True. The new DA seems to be among, if not The, most powerful codices around. When I first looked at the ICs I thought: well it's nothing truly OP, a part from Ezekiel's power. Then I read the DW/RW entries.... my opinion changed quickly. They are not utterly powerful against CSM but against everyone else. How can you prevent the DW deep strike attack from destroying a good part of your army? Maybe GK can forcing them to suffer a mishap but it's not difficult for them to land at 13" from the warp quake unit. But how can Chaos Space Marine survive such assault? With all of those twin-linked assault cannon shots not even AV14 is safe enough. And what about their vehicles? A "de facto" venerable Land Raider with Prefered enemy against.. guess what , CSM. I know the dex is out from one day but I'd really like to know if any of you found a way for CSM to even have a slight chance to survive the slaughter DA are about to commence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I'd like to point out that preferred enemy: CSM lets the model re-roll gets hot! results from plasmaguns/cannons/talons, DA's favoured weapon. Hatred is just one round in one close combat, the result of which any DA with ATKNF/stubborn will ignore. it's not that DA are overpowered. the codex is great. ours is just crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Can't wait until the new Vanilla Codex comes out, though I have to say the idea of playing a Ravenguard Army (Dark Angels Scouts with Allied Blood Angels Assault Squads) sounds fun. My friend and I were comparing Khorne Beserkers to Death Company the other day *sigh*, I hate how my chosen army seems to get crapped on :/ High hopes for my Tau *hear's cruddace is writing it* ...*sigh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Can't wait until the new Vanilla Codex comes out, though I have to say the idea of playing a Ravenguard Army (Dark Angels Scouts with Allied Blood Angels Assault Squads) sounds fun. My friend and I were comparing Khorne Beserkers to Death Company the other day *sigh*, I hate how my chosen army seems to get crapped on :/ High hopes for my Tau *hear's cruddace is writing it* ...*sigh* I heard the IG codex isn't that bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokkorex Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Hellios: that's because they are cruddace favourite army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izhim ur-Baal Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 The only way to show our distaste is to stop funding GW, and boycott the company (if you just change army it's their victory). Let's see how much they'll earn on just space marines ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 The only way to show our distaste is to stop funding GW, and boycott the company (if you just change army it's their victory). Let's see how much they'll earn on just space marines ! Right, because everyone else will most surely follow and you won't end up just giving up on a hobby. Right, that will work. Cya! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 The only way to show our distaste is to stop funding GW, and boycott the company (if you just change army it's their victory). Let's see how much they'll earn on just space marines ! The only real way to stop GW is by spreading malicious rumours. You know... The kind I've been spreading about the Catholic church for years... That it is being run and manipulated by a Sith lord! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazath Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I'm sure they will earn plenty will space marines, cause there are like six marine codices. Also, not all chaos players dislike the current codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Let's see how much they'll earn on just space marines ! LOL isn't that like the situation right now? everything else is just cannon fodder to make us ragebandwagon over to the next FOTM marine chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khurdur Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 please please I've had a look at the DA codex and things aren't SO bad. Sure their terminators are tough and RW are fast and cheap and their tacticals are dirt cheap. Howeveer, we too have good things. I generally like the new 'dex. Cultist blobs, chaos lords with daemon weapons, plague marines, MoN oblits, and even berzerkers or any unit with MoK and the veterans upgrade can slay loyalists in droves. 9 nurgle oblits will make any marine player (or indeed anyone with a demolisher cannon) cry. Assault cannon or plasma cannons can easily kill termies en masse. A Khorne lord with axe of blind fury in any khorne unit-bikers/zerkers/termies/or even CSM with the banner and VOTotW can slaughter almost any space marine unit of any colour. Yesterday they killed lysander and 5 assault termies. How about 10 plague marines with 2 plasmaguns and veterans? hatred against marines and poison, re-roll hits and wounds in the first turn. And they don't really die to anything. 30-35 MoK Cultists with Khârn inside. They are lethal against anyone without lots of flamers or large blast markers. 90-120 hatred attacks. But yes, our basic CSM kinda suck. So, play other troops, or just use them as objective grabbers and shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 and what do you do if someone plays 1ksons or an AL/WB/NL army and doesnt want to run PMs ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayray Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 WB/AL- massive cultist bubble wrap, ectofiend, helldrake. The DA codex can be countered. In a month it will be just another GW fart in the wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 ...or IW? Warpsmith is a poor excuse for a techmarine (without FOC shifts, servoarms, conversion beamer or even access to special issue wargear!). Oblits in units greater than one don't seem viable to me anymore when they can be pinned, sent running by losses and not even accurately DS'd. Same can be said about havocs, however cheap they may be now (hint: not really cheaper than DA devastators who are immune to morale). Fiends are okay, just 25-50pts overcosted and the 24" range is a huge letdown. C:CSM more and more boils down to DP/w wings, armor, mace + minimum cultists + heldrake allied detatchment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babel_Triumphant Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I don't know what the complaints are about. In terms of HQ, we get more options, including of course daemon princes, the juggerlord, and sorcerers which are generally cheaper than their librarians. For elites, we have cheaper terminators and veterans who can spam plasma more effectively than theirs. Our basic CSM are extremely similar in price, and although they lack ATSKNF, they come with a ld9 champ standard and a whole lot more options because of marks/icons. We also have cultists, a unit which DA have no equivalent, and cult troops instead of DW/RW, which can actually be unlocked with cheap generic HQs instead of very expensive named ones. Our fast attack has spawn, bikes which are much cheaper than theirs, and heldrakes. The new DA flyers have nothing on the helldrake, with its higher armor, invulnerable save, vector strikes and S8 autocannon. As for heavy, they have cheaper devs by 5 points. But they can't take autocannons, and they can't take oblits, and they definitely can't take daemon engines. I'm not saying our codex is necessarily better, but it has a whole lot more options, the vast majority of which are very much in line power-wise with those of the dark angels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayray Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Nehekhare, the old legions argument isn't viable. A new codex coming out shouldn't cause cries of "my legion can't do x because it isn't in their fluff.." you want plague marines? Take some shields and put them on the models, or reinforce the power armor model with more armor. That argument just screams that there is a lack of imagination going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Nehekhare, the old legions argument isn't viable. A new codex coming out shouldn't cause cries of "my legion can't do x because it isn't in their fluff.." you want plague marines? Take some shields and put them on the models, or reinforce the power armor model with more armor. That argument just screams that there is a lack of imagination going on. Aha . I am sorry do SW have to imagine ATKNF by taking lets say BT codex models ? Did WS players had to use the DA dex to play their bike armies and had to imagine they are playing WS [with a DA codex in front of them]? PMs are nurgle , they have the mark , yes you cant try to cheat yourself that they are not and that those are just extra spiffy siege marines , if only FW didnt make actual siege marine gear. The argument says that there is a big difference between what people want and what GW is willing to give them. Why dont they just name the codex BL ? n terms of HQ, we get more options, including of course daemon princes, the juggerlord, and sorcerers which are generally cheaper than their librarians. more then what ? then the gav dex , now that is an achivment considering that dex had 1 HQ. Do they have more then SW ? not realy RP=sorc[and a RP has more utility and is cheaper] , the lord is a lord , the TWC lord is DP . they even have crappy WP to be stand ins for our apostols. We also have cultists, a unit which DA have no equivalent, unless they take IG , which they can battlebrother unlike us. and IG units are a lot better then cultists , the flyer options alone are worth a whole army. which can actually be unlocked with cheap generic HQs instead of very expensive named ones. since when is an ax or mace lord cheap ? am not even going to touch the whole ahriman/taking a tzeench sorc thing . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayray Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Well Jeske, if all there is to do is whine, then shelve the army. That's what it has more or less boiled down to. Take a core warband and add in some plague marines. The meta favors and more than likely for the moment will continue to favor GK/Necrons. Chaos isn't a codex that just plays itself with uber units. 3.5 is dead. Get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khurdur Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 since when is an ax or mace lord cheap ? am not even going to touch the whole ahriman/taking a tzeench sorc thing . a foot axelord with meltabombs is 140p. On a bike with true T5 and powerfist immunity he's 160 and can kill almost any SM character from a captain to Marneus calgar to dante, only mephiston will take him. For 160p that is a lot of hurt...he is very cheap for the damage he dishes out... And our bikes too are awesome in addition to what I mentioned above, 10 bikes with MoK, veterans and Khorne banner will tear these DA a new one any day of the week, yes even the ravenwing in close comabt, just turbo-boost...the whole squad just costs 270p, he'll be :cussting himself to kill them, even just five will wreck any unit he has. And, always have 9 oblits. they are too good to not take. Yes if you play any "legion" short of BL you are in fluff difficulties. But hey, I play black legion and every man in my army be he a plague marine, zerker CSM or oblit has the eye of horus on his left shoulder plate for unity and loyalty. We don't fight as organised legions much anyway short of the word bearers and perhaps iron warriors. I think our book is solid and I do like it very much, it is what I call very solid, and can play any army (short of Guard) to equal terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayray Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Playing off that the chaos codex is a quadrapalegic when paired up against DA is just a copout, IMO. Yep. life might suck the first few games. Yeah, those one turn S10 AP1 maces are going to hurt. But every army will have to get a sip of that haterade, and my army will be screaming "Choke on me" down to the last man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pivich Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 and what do you do if someone plays 1ksons or an AL/WB/NL army and doesnt want to run PMs ? Well, then you on your own, i guess ;) "how i stop worrying and love being punched in the face" by P.Kelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pivich Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Well Jeske, if all there is to do is whine, then shelve the army. That's what it has more or less boiled down to. Take a core warband and add in some plague marines. The meta favors and more than likely for the moment will continue to favor GK/Necrons. Chaos isn't a codex that just plays itself with uber units. 3.5 is dead. Get over it. I'm glad I start playing plague marines in the middle of Gavdex. Because today it seems favorite advice is "take nurgle oblit's and add plague marines and plague bikers" and so on Too bad for my IW, but hey, i've got nice SW+IG combination for them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 . That argument just screams that there is a lack of imagination going on. While I get your point to some degree... The whole imagination argument is a bit flimsy. If we just wanted to use our imagination we wouldn't need to buy codices or the rule book. Hell if we had really good imaginations we wouldn't even need tables or models. 'PEW PEW' went squad Betalon, causing the barricade behind which the IG were cowering to crumble. 'FREEEEEEEEEM' went the lascannons of the ancient predator Fahallthanexic, causing the Leman Russ , The Wrath of the Emperor, to explode; consuming everything in a 15m radius with bright but terrible flames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I don't know about the rest of you guys, My issue is not that the DA Codex appears to be better on the suface-level, has more powerful units and builds compared to ours. I called that a long time ago. (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=233328&st=0&p=2808953&&do=findComment&comment=2808953) My issue is that the sad trend of Codex creep still lives, when they could have started fresh and insured a stable internal balance in 6th. ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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