Dark Angels Rumors and Chaos Faildex...

[Nehekhare]

Nehekhare, the old legions argument isn't viable.

I myself advocated counts-as and was one of the few guys here actually happy with the gavdex back then. I had PM siege veterans and even TS cybernetica. I played dark mechanicum counts-as CD screamers/flamers years before the WD update. Give me a cool looking model and some grimdark background fluff for it and I'll find rules that fit. That is not the problem.

 

The problem is that the rules presented in C:CSMeh fall into three categories:

1) generic marine stuff which is done better (ATSKNFail) and mostly even cheaper with other codices

2) unique chaotic stuff which is uncompetitively overcosted.

3) anal turkey.

 

The sad thing is, there are so many possibilities missed and stupid oversights that could have made for a very good codex if they would just have put a little more efford and inspiration into it.

 

Thus it always comes back to the same question with this codex: why play it and not something else?

[Sception]

Thus it always comes back to the same question with this codex: why play it and not something else?

 

Desire to mix marine and daemonic elements legally in games below apocalypse levels.

 

That's basically it.

[Nehekhare]

Maybe I'll try CD as "agents of chaos" for HH. Can't make a list with them in 40k that isn't better off without CSM. Still more exited about HH2 dark mechanicum.

[Rayray]

More than likely, the issues you guys have comes from the gaming groups in your area. I'm sure if i saw cron air and GK every other game, I would be a bit more peeved than i am. I seem to be able to roll under leadership 8 out of 10 times, so lack of ATKNF doesn't bother me so much.(even with cultists) The thing that bothers me most out of the new DA is that Deathwing can get around all deep strike scattering. But hey, plasma cannons melt faces off.

[Sception]

HH just doesn't do it for me. It's not (officially) legal for regular games of 40k, and doesn't have any of the iconic elements that make chaos marines chaos marines. No cult marines, no daemon princes, no daemon engines, no oblits or possessed or...

 

No, it just doesn't work for me. I mean, there are plenty of armies that are stronger than 6e CSMs, plenty of codeces better designed. But they're still not chaos marines, so I'm not interested.

[Brother Ambroz]

Yeah I agree with Mali. I want to play Chaos marines not loyalist 2.0, not that HH is bad though for those that are into it. Hell I use some of the models for my own stuff.

 

Edit: I refer you to this topic where a guy picks up his new codex and tables his chaos opponent turn three, then replays the guy and the guy surrenders on turn three. I realize this is likely because of how new C:DA is but really after playing the same list he should've been able to do a bit better than that.....

[Nehekhare]

Legion rules are cool, but i too miss the daemonic stuff. I wish any of their rules were good.

[Trevak Dal]

Can't wait until the new Vanilla Codex comes out, though I have to say the idea of playing a Ravenguard Army (Dark Angels Scouts with Allied Blood Angels Assault Squads) sounds fun.

 

My friend and I were comparing Khorne Beserkers to Death Company the other day *sigh*, I hate how my chosen army seems to get crapped on :/

 

High hopes for my Tau *hear's cruddace is writing it* ...*sigh*

 

I heard the IG codex isn't that bad.

 

Indeed, it's Imperial. His other book...isn't as "not bad" and is plainly "Not Imperial" and that's a Company policy so long as the "Not Imperial" codex hasn't been remade since they had metal armies.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah I agree with Mali. I want to play Chaos marines not loyalist 2.0, not that HH is bad though for those that are into it. Hell I use some of the models for my own stuff.

 

Edit: I refer you to this topic where a guy picks up his new codex and tables his chaos opponent turn three, then replays the guy and the guy surrenders on turn three. I realize this is likely because of how new C:DA is but really after playing the same list he should've been able to do a bit better than that.....

You're assuming the player levels are the same. Just because a fair game on the tabletop is decided by two legal lists of equal points value between two people playing for the same reason(hopefully), it does not mean that the two people are of equal strengths.

 

The Chaos Player may not be sure how to deal with it and is expecting the ultra-common, super-competitive Chaos tactic of sacrificial units to actually do something instead of actually trying to use his army as something other than pawns. Pawns are only good if you use them, make them live and get them across the board. Otherwise, they're dead and worthless and it doesn't take much to kill them. And it doesn't help that most Chaos players want to kill their pawns, which makes it easier for the people they play against. And since the battles were apparently "balls to the walls", which is not Chaos' strongsuit at the moment, it's kind of no wonder the suicide tactics didn't work.

[Sception]

Don't get me wrong. The Horus Heresy book, game, lists, and models are all fantastic. I love FW's whole Horus Heresy push. But I don't consider it a viable substitute for Chaos Marines in regular 40k. I would love if some of that energy, enthusiasm, and spirit, if some of that design and rules format, made its way into regular 40k books. I would love it if 40k started looking more like the FW Horus Heresy books in layout and design philosophy. The Horus Heresy is fantastic.

 

It's just not Chaos Marines.

[Brother Ambroz]

You're assuming the player levels are the same. Just because a fair game on the tabletop is decided by two legal lists of equal points value between two people playing for the same reason(hopefully), it does not mean that the two people are of equal strengths.

 

The Chaos Player may not be sure how to deal with it and is expecting the ultra-common, super-competitive Chaos tactic of sacrificial units to actually do something instead of actually trying to use his army as something other than pawns. Pawns are only good if you use them, make them live and get them across the board. Otherwise, they're dead and worthless and it doesn't take much to kill them. And it doesn't help that most Chaos players want to kill their pawns, which makes it easier for the people they play against. And since the battles were apparently "balls to the walls", which is not Chaos' strongsuit at the moment, it's kind of no wonder the suicide tactics didn't work.

 

That is almost always assumed Kol. Still though to get tabled by turn three and then get beaten so badly you surrender again on turn three after playing the same list, that's gotta be saying something.

 

The rest of this I have no idea what you're talking about with ultra competitive chaos tactic Kol. If you're talking about cultist bubble wrap, the guy doesn't mention cutlists at all.

[Noctus Cornix]

HH just doesn't do it for me. It's not (officially) legal for regular games of 40k, and doesn't have any of the iconic elements that make chaos marines chaos marines. No cult marines, no daemon princes, no daemon engines, no oblits or possessed or...

 

No, it just doesn't work for me. I mean, there are plenty of armies that are stronger than 6e CSMs, plenty of codeces better designed. But they're still not chaos marines, so I'm not interested.

 

 

Mal, its times like this where I remember how much I love you. :)

[Kol Saresk]

You're assuming the player levels are the same. Just because a fair game on the tabletop is decided by two legal lists of equal points value between two people playing for the same reason(hopefully), it does not mean that the two people are of equal strengths.

 

The Chaos Player may not be sure how to deal with it and is expecting the ultra-common, super-competitive Chaos tactic of sacrificial units to actually do something instead of actually trying to use his army as something other than pawns. Pawns are only good if you use them, make them live and get them across the board. Otherwise, they're dead and worthless and it doesn't take much to kill them. And it doesn't help that most Chaos players want to kill their pawns, which makes it easier for the people they play against. And since the battles were apparently "balls to the walls", which is not Chaos' strongsuit at the moment, it's kind of no wonder the suicide tactics didn't work.

 

That is almost always assumed Kol. Still though to get tabled by turn three and then get beaten so badly you surrender again on turn three after playing the same list, that's gotta be saying something.

 

The rest of this I have no idea what you're talking about with ultra competitive chaos tactic Kol. If you're talking about cultist bubble wrap, the guy doesn't mention cutlists at all.

What's the number one use of our units? With the exception of our Objective Campers, we attach the designator "Suicide Unit." Our Elites, our Fast Attack, just about everything we don't place value on. We choose to kill our own units instead of utilizing them. Put those suicide units up against an army that specializes in killing Power Armor with a preference for Chaos Power Armor, the normal Kamikaze route is stupid. Of course, we, as the Chaos community, will continue marching forward into the blaze of guns, expecting the death of our units to actually mean something.

 

And the pawns reference was used in a similar tactic to Chess in which most players basically throw their pawns away in favor of their stronger pieces. It's just as useless as getting pawns across the board can result in check in most situations, with a portion of the remainder resulting in checkmate if one has the tactical foresight to position his pieces correctly.

[Brother Ambroz]

What's the number one use of our units? With the exception of our Objective Campers, we attach the designator "Suicide Unit." Our Elites, our Fast Attack, just about everything we don't place value on. We choose to kill our own units instead of utilizing them. Put those suicide units up against an army that specializes in killing Power Armor with a preference for Chaos Power Armor, the normal Kamikaze route is stupid. Of course, we, as the Chaos community, will continue marching forward into the blaze of guns, expecting the death of our units to actually mean something.

 

And the pawns reference was used in a similar tactic to Chess in which most players basically throw their pawns away in favor of their stronger pieces. It's just as useless as getting pawns across the board can result in check in most situations, with a portion of the remainder resulting in checkmate if one has the tactical foresight to position his pieces correctly.

 

Ah, well some of us don't use our models as suicide units, even if it means losing the edge. At the same time though DA don't just specialize in killing PA, they specialize in killing PA, TA and chaos in general. That's what all the plasma is all about, not to mention PE: Chaos.

 

I usually do that with my pawns when I play chess, but I always save a few for the end.

[Nehekhare]

i would love some rules on cultists to reflect their sacrificial status, like in tyrants legion

[Vesper]

i would love some rules on cultists to reflect their sacrificial status, like in tyrants legion

And I would love to be paid doing nothing but waking up at noon.

You think you're in a whishlist thread for the next loyalist codex ? You're dead wrong buddy... Dead wrong.

[Sception]

Mal, its times like this where I remember how much I love you.

[minionboy]

My issue is that the sad trend of Codex creep still lives, when they could have started fresh and insured a stable internal balance in 6th. ed.

 

Normally I agree with you, but really, you guys need to go out and play against the DA book... So far I've found that nothing they have is really that threatening. Once the Knights blow their maces, they become very easy to handle, and even before then, they die just as well against small arms fire as any other terminator, and if they do ball up, they're going to suck on plasma cannons from Obliterators and Ectofiends.

 

On the surface, they appear to many people to be more a significantly more powerful book than chaos, but once you actually see most of it on the field, it's really not that scary. Their new toys that seem the most scary are either made of rice paper (derp-speeders), are fairly expensive (Black Knights), are only good for one turn (Deathwing Knights), or just kinda suck (either Flyer).

 

Honestly, I have found the games with this book very balanced so far when compared to the Chaos Marines, and I hope that all the books in the future continue the trend of being around this level of effectiveness.

[Nehekhare]

You think you're in a whishlist thread for the next loyalist codex ?

Actually, I don't even get what makes you think that...dude, :cuss?

[the jeske]

play against a minimax las razor DA build with terminators support and IG ally with vendettas at 1850-2k points . It is very good.

[Hellios]

are only good for one turn (Deathwing Knights),

 

I won't comment on C:DA or C:CSM being better or worse than the other and I would agree generally that when a new codex comes out people tend to overreact. That being said, I think you are being unfair on the Deathwing Knights.

 

Sure they are at risk from plasma but no more than any other unit. Maybe I've killed off you obliterators already by the time my Knights comes in or whatever. So if I don't need to worry about templates and small arms are what I'm worried about. Be it from CSM, cultists or someone's imperial guard, I can choose to bundle up or not.

 

Again with the maces... They can wreck pretty much anything on the turn you unleash the power. Which you would ideally use on the unit or units you would otherwise have problems with. Even when not using the maces They will beat things with a 4+ to death, they can bash lighter vehicles apart, especially if they have been sitting still, and, against chaos (that's us) they will kill MEQ... I understand the sgt is AP2 and if that is at initiative and they have a significant number of attacks from their maces... Even terminators should die.

 

So it comes down to cost/benefit. I'm just not sure that the knights are only good for one turn, especially against chaos.

[Brother Ambroz]

Normally I agree with you, but really, you guys need to go out and play against the DA book... So far I've found that nothing they have is really that threatening. Once the Knights blow their maces, they become very easy to handle, and even before then, they die just as well against small arms fire as any other terminator, and if they do ball up, they're going to suck on plasma cannons from Obliterators and Ectofiends.

 

On the surface, they appear to many people to be more a significantly more powerful book than chaos, but once you actually see most of it on the field, it's really not that scary. Their new toys that seem the most scary are either made of rice paper (derp-speeders), are fairly expensive (Black Knights), are only good for one turn (Deathwing Knights), or just kinda suck (either Flyer).

 

Honestly, I have found the games with this book very balanced so far when compared to the Chaos Marines, and I hope that all the books in the future continue the trend of being around this level of effectiveness.

 

Try playing against the new alpha strike DW list as Derpasaurus did in the other thread.

[minionboy]

Try playing against the new alpha strike DW list as Derpasaurus did in the other thread.

 

One game against one list is hardly something to get crazy about. There will always be new builds that you have to consider when writing a list, and I'm sure that after a few games, even Derpasaurus will find things that he could have done differently.

 

I won't comment on C:DA or C:CSM being better or worse than the other and I would agree generally that when a new codex comes out people tend to overreact. That being said, I think you are being unfair on the Deathwing Knights.

 

Sure they are at risk from plasma but no more than any other unit. Maybe I've killed off you obliterators already by the time my Knights comes in or whatever. So if I don't need to worry about templates and small arms are what I'm worried about. Be it from CSM, cultists or someone's imperial guard, I can choose to bundle up or not.

 

Again with the maces... They can wreck pretty much anything on the turn you unleash the power. Which you would ideally use on the unit or units you would otherwise have problems with. Even when not using the maces They will beat things with a 4+ to death, they can bash lighter vehicles apart, especially if they have been sitting still, and, against chaos (that's us) they will kill MEQ... I understand the sgt is AP2 and if that is at initiative and they have a significant number of attacks from their maces... Even terminators should die.

 

So it comes down to cost/benefit. I'm just not sure that the knights are only good for one turn, especially against chaos.

 

I think the problem is that when compared to TH/SS terminators, I think I'd rather reliably be S8 AP2 for 3 points more per model, than have one turn per game where you're S10 AP2. And hey, for a few more points you could even take a Cyclone Missile Launcher for more versatility. My problem is when you compare their survivability, to protect yourself against small arms (arguably the best anti-TH/SS way to go), you dramatically decrease your survivability to high AP blast weaponry.

 

I do agree that against 4+ models, they wreck face, but most of the meta I see is around facing Marines of some sort. And against Xenos, the last thing you want to do is get tied up with a Monstrous Creature with a 3+ save, smashing apart all your expensive terminators.

[Iron_Within]

reading that thread with the DA players cackling that their list is cheese was depressing....

[the jeske]

why ? why should anyone ever be sad that his codex can be used as a base for good lists . Go ask the SW or IG players do they feel bad that their codex was awesome/good for years . Of course they dont , everyone who plays any army should get a product from GW that makes him feel like that.