Dark Angels Rumors and Chaos Faildex...

[Brother Ambroz]

It wasn't broken. It was tough sure but not broken. It's more like the current SW.

 

Enough about that though. What'll happen if C:DA is the next OTT codex? We'll get even stricter with our competitive lists, limiting it to 2-3 lists with tiny variations like different marks or preds instead of havocs. Hmm sound familiar? Gavdex springs to mind with its tiny variations such as warptime MoN DPs instead of MoS lash DPs. That was about the only variation in competitive lists back then.

[Iron Warrior w/ Servo Arm]

Broken you say ? Nah.

Take Warp Quake, something that, litterally, potentially mean that your Daemon buddy who brought his army to your house to play a game will not be able to put a single model on the table, that is the point where the game breaks.

3.5 wasn't broken. In fact, its strongest build (daemon bomb) wasn't as strong as the Eldar Circus, for example (and those damn antigrav tanks...). Some people (read "teh internets") disliked it and whined it was imbalanced and such. But it wasn't the case. They hated it because it had tons of viable builds (not viable because they were op, viable because they had the potential to be decent in every orientation the Chaos player wanted (and the Legions lists helped doing that)). And that's the reason why I consider it the best codex ever printed, even if it wasn't as strong as Eldar or Tyranids or whatever. It was viable, fun, diverse and it tried to make people play fluffy. I've never asked for more.

 

That's basically it. Tons of people I meet (including a GW employee who says it was the worst codex as people only play one army) say that 3.5 is broken. It really wasn't. It had tons of options and I can customize it however the hell I wanted and still be viable. It managed to be competitive without being broken. Something I don't think the new designers understand.

 

I wonder if I will ever see such glory days again.

[Kol Saresk]

Warptime got nerfed remember? The only variation was Plague Marine vs Khorne Berzerker.

[Brother Ambroz]

It got nerfed in the very end but up until then (remember that FAQ only came out like what a few months before our new dex?) it was one of the few variations.

 

Enough pining about our glory days though guys, let's try to focus on the now.

[Vesper]

Warptime got nerfed remember? The only variation was Plague Marine vs Khorne Berzerker.

 

I don't know if it's really relevant, as I doubt any Chaos player was still actually playing at that point in time.

[Kol Saresk]

It got nerfed in the very end but up until then (remember that FAQ only came out like what a few months before our new dex?) it was one of the few variations.

 

Enough pining about our glory days though guys, let's try to focus on the now.

The now sucks remember?

[Iron Warrior w/ Servo Arm]

Enough pining about our glory days though guys, let's try to focus on the now.

 

The now has been "play with nurgle or die" for a few years now. I hate nurgle.

[Agent Purple]

It's not a matter of "want." It's a matter of "is." It's not "3.5 Chaos was the only good army." Just as 5th Ed GK is not the only current good army. It was simply one of the more broken, powerhouse armies. Was it powerful? Yes. Was it viable? Yes. Was it broken? Yes.

 

Also, if comparing a current edition to a bad edition is a no-no, then why are we posting on a thread that is comparing the current codex to past editions?

 

Game balance has always been a problem GW refuses to address. I don' think the power level of the 3.5 codex was any more out of whack with the other codexes at the time than GK or tzeentch deamons are now, for example, which was the point of my comment. GK now are even worse than 3.5 chaos, several of their units are blatantly undercosted.

 

It's better to be at or near the top of the peak (ie: 3.5ed) than near the bottom (now), especially with no hope of any update in sight. Accordingly, 3.5 was better for chaos.

 

3.5 also offered substantially more variety in the amount of competitive builds. Siren daemon bomb, 6x havoc black legion, 4x ordinance 9x oblit IW, Rhino rush berzerkers, all infiltrate army etc... you could make a viable mono-god or unmarked army and not feel too bad about it, unlike now where you really need to mix and match (khorne lord, nurgle oblits, slaneesh prince etc...). The mark system provided equal benefits for all devotees across the board, instead of core cult units being better than elites/lords. The only really underpowered build was thousand sons.

 

Now nurgle is the only real viable monogod list, otherwise you are basically relying on the new flyer, and your HQ to do the damage for you, with the rest of your points dumped into firesupport (maybe deamon allies) and objective campers. Otherwise, you might as well be playing SW. How is that better than 3.5e?

 

New codex just seems like it fights you everytime you try and make a build.

 

Lots of cheap special weapons (with combi, you get 3 specs per 10 troop which is better than SW or CSM, havocs/chosen get 4/5 specs per 5 models etc...) but no drop pods to take advantage of this. Rhinos are no longer a guarantee to get your special weapon squads in range and doing damage, and only other option is to infiltrate with eats an HQ slot, and only reliably gets 1-2 units up field (not good for special weapon MSU builds) and is completely shutdown by GK/SW chooser/servo skulls. Drop pods or infiltrate legion tactics/veteran ability would have made this aspect of the army useful.

 

Pretty cheap buff character (sorc), which could potentially close the gap between CSM infantry and other armies (ie: make up for poor initial points efficiency by adding cost effective buffs), but sorc also needs to share HQ slot with DP and lord (CC power), and do not unlock cults as troops if needed (bad for noise marines, if we are trying to buff them using endurance/sensory overload, for example). Sorcs also don't confer fearless so they compete with the lord slot for the morale buff.

 

Lots of deep strike capable units (oblits, termies, raptors), but no reserves manipulation or deep-strike scatter reduction outside of the dimensional key trap to make a mass deep-strike list viable.

 

Several decent HP, 5+ inv walkers, but all compete for the same 3 HS slots, which also compete with oblits and havocs... Feinds or oblits as elites would have opened up some potentially good shooty builds (3x def 3x FF maybe? or 3x FF 9x Oblit).

 

Only joining like-marked or unmarked units is fluffy, but in mix and match dex, this is a drawback because you can't put the units you want with the characters you want (nurgle bikers with axelord etc...).

 

The codex is like a puzzle where the box came with missing pieces and too many of some of the other peices. Its a frustrating experience trying to work with.

 

Sometimes I have dreams at night where someone at the LGS asks me for a game, and I say sure just let me put together a list, and I get the codex out but can't come up with something decent so I just wind up staring at a blank page until I wake up.... I will never forgive phil kelly for this codex, especially after what he gave the wolves. Gavdex was at least excusable as a test bed for a new (failed) design paradigm. Kelly has no excuse for this subpar peice of garbage, he ought to have known better than to try and pass chaos off as a bunch of patched together mundane units.

 

New dex is a poor representation of chaos in general. Most of the units feel less elite (due to lack of special abilities or morale boosts) than their loyalist counterparts, while supposedly being a veteran force (legion remnants). Just because PK calls them 'veterans of the long war' dosen't mean they play like it on the field. Newer renegades are also represented poorly due to tech disconnect. Not to mention he has completely thrown out the concept of chaos undivided which is pretty aggravating in general.

 

If chaos doesn't adhere to the codex (and they don't) why do their options still restrict in the same way as codex marines? Why only 2 special weapons in a 20 man squad? Why no hidden power weapons in the units? Why only 4 weapons in a havoc squad (instead of all can upgrade)?

 

Chaos, at heart, is an MEQ dex. The core units (CSM,havocs,terminators,bikes,raptors) are essentially functionally equivalent to their loyalist counter parts (granted CSM can function as imitation GH or assault marines as well), except that they trade in the loyalist ATSKNF rule for expanded options and a minor point reduction (and historically a LD boost). The problem is in 6th edition, with the points costs we got in the new book, the trade is now pretty blatantly unfair. Since CSM armies should be built around CSM's, this is a major problem. (Cults being broken is a seperate issue, but new codex dosen't even really try to make mono-cult armies viable, since they only give you 1 cult unit and 1 cult character).

 

14pts and LD9 with no ATSKNF (15 points with mark of undivided for the re-roll) was a fair trade in 3rd and 4th ed (and early 5th) when regular space marines cost 15 points and did not get free weapons or additional special rules. It was rare that morale would ever suffer more than a -1 or -2, so LD8 with a re-roll was pretty unlikely to break anyways. Even in 5th, where an icon provided homer abilities in addition to the re-roll and your unit would need to lose CC pretty badly before you had a real danger of breaking and the icon was difficult to snipe wasn't so bad, considering we got an extra CC attack extremely cheap. Now with EZ snipe characters, ATSKNF buff, and 2 free special rules on every loyalist marine (plus free weapons or transport discount), 14 points for LD9 and hatred (space marines) no longer stacks up well, (especially considering the premium price tag placed on the extra CC attack). The same issue carries over to chosen, raptors, terminators, and to a lesser extent, havocs (bikers are pretty cheap for what they do, so I can't really complain about them).

 

In summary, you don't need to look at 3.5e to know new dex is crap. You only need to look at current SM/SW/GK/BA codex.

[Excessus]

Enough pining about our glory days though guys, let's try to focus on the now.

 

The now has been "play with nurgle or die" for a few years now. I hate nurgle.

You mean "since 2nd ed" ofc...

[Zhorzh]

Wait for the damn DA codex before you start whining. Point costs could mean the world of difference.

 

Gavdex was at least excusable

 

No.

 

Why only 2 special weapons in a 20 man squad? Why no hidden power weapons in the units? Why only 4 weapons in a havoc squad (instead of all can upgrade)?

 

1. Even if you could get 4 specials in a 20 man squad it wouldn't be a smart idea

2. I dunno, because we aren't SW?

3. Dream on.

[Yogi]

I agree with your post Agent Purple. Very good way of putting it.

 

Zhorzh can go back to dreaming also. Purple gave reasons, for his opinion you cherrypick two things and are a big whiner about whining.

 

GG no re.

[Nehekhare]

Glory to Agent Purple for this magnificent bearing of words!

 

And honor to you, Kol, for your optimism is clearly a mark of tzeentch!

 

Still, I refute the notions that Legions are dead. In 40k, yes. But 30k is now more alive than ever! And it is actually FUN to play! Chaos Players do no longer have to put up with this *%§# dex!

[RapatoR]

Well IMO we will see Legion supplement sooner or later. And it is not only my opinion. Natfka from Faeit212 thinks the same...

[the jeske]

It's not a matter of "want." It's a matter of "is." It's not "3.5 Chaos was the only good army." Just as 5th Ed GK is not the only current good army. It was simply one of the more broken, powerhouse armies. Was it powerful? Yes. Was it viable? Yes. Was it broken? Yes.

 

Also, if comparing a current edition to a bad edition is a no-no, then why are we posting on a thread that is comparing the current codex to past editions?

wait wait wait . broken against which armies ? wasnt broken against circus , wasnt broken against nidzilla , nor against minimax and AC spam list . Or do you mean that it was broken against stuff like SoB or GK dex ? because against those even kroot mercenaries were broken against those.

 

I also find it funny how you say 3.5 was broken , when you actualy want to say BL khorn and IW were broken[the second werent eldar were owning them up hard]. Isnt it funny how the gav dex which you claim got rid of the "broken" stuff , made us play 2xDP[resiliance and kill ratio of a glaive lord from 3.5] , 9 oblits[bL could only run 3 , so its a gain of 6 oblits for the"broken"lists] and 5 man pms [the new minimax] .

 

The now sucks remember?

show me a good legion list that doesnt get optimised to nurgle lord +bikers +2 drakes +havocks/oblits and we can talk about sucking or not.

[Sception]

Khorne Lord + bokers + 2 drakes + havoks/oblits with an aegis! Suck it, Jeske, completely different build!

 

/jk

 

 

I mean other stuff can be played. I've played other stuff myself. But playing other stuff is more fun when you're not working in a book where there's a default 'best build' that's just the same as anything you were doing but better. And Bike Lord/meltabikes/2xdrake/plasmaCSMs-or-Plagues/auto-or-las-havoks/oblits/aegis just is that list for CSMs, particularly if you're not taking special characters. At least until you have enough points to run allies, when you have a real optimization build choice between daemons and guard, and that choice can start making other in-codex choices more interesting (for instance, a tank-heavy guard ally slot can push las-predators over las-havocs). But by that point you're playing much bigger games than people in my area at least tend to play. Here it's still more like "Warhamer 1.5k". And at those points, we've definitely got mono-build. Maybe not as bad a monobuild as the 4e book. Maybe not as bad a mono-build as the 7e vamp counts book. But I've played all of those books, and they've all definitely got a case of mono-build.

 

Again, you can run other stuff. I've seen threads here and elsewhere trying to make the most out of suboptimal builds for thematic purposes, like "what's the best we can do with a list that prominently features thousand sons or sonic-armed noise marines", or even the Ahriman + bunch of terminators Jeske & others were hashing out in the terminator thread. There's abbadon chosen spam, typhus zombies, mech heavy lists led by warpsmiths, cultist heavy lists with apostles, multiple cult lists, etc. But most of them do just optimize straight to the default list without any ifs or buts about it, and while some may not care, it is less fun for me when I'm running my apostle or warpsmith and I know intellectually in advance and then can experience repeatedly over the course of a game how I would have been better off with a lord or sorcerer (or Huron) in those same slots & points. Same feeling when I run my raptors thinking about bikes. I can focus on the other things I enjoy about my army - the models, the fluff - but I can't shut that part of my brain off completely.

 

And tellingly, in the other main army I play, 8th ed fantasy vamp counts, I don't have to. Sure there are some notably good (Terrorgheist) or sub-par (skeletons, corpse cart, black coach) options in the book, but most of the options in that book are legitimate optimization choices, and there are several different functionally distinct builds, from double-engine to screamspam to blackstar or gravestar and more, all available at typical game sizes. The new stuff in that book was designed deliberately both to fill necessary gaps that the new ruleset had left in the army and to make the old bloodline themes more viable without returning to restrictive bloodline rules or sub lists, and it did all of that without overpowering the army. It wasn't even really the strongest 8th ed book at time of release, and sits happily in the middle of things now. Diverse, fun, competitive, balanced - both internally & externally.

 

All of that - a diverse book with strong internal balance, new options designed to make the book function in the new ruleset and to make running old fluff lists easier without returning to restrictive sub-lists, multiple competitive and functionally distinct builds without anything breaking the game - that's the treatment Chaos needed and, after 5 years with the gavdex, deserved. That's the Phil Kelly I was excited to hear was writing our Codex. Sadly, that's just not the Phil Kelly we got.

 

I'm mostly over it. I mostly just don't have anything left to say on the matter, I mean I've given that same rant before - complaining about the mono list, raving about the vamp counts, all that. And I am hopeful things will get better, after all, these days new units and even new rules for existing units can just appear out of nowhere in white dwarf. Maybe GW will get the message that there are things people aren't happy with. We already have thousand sons plastics rumored to be in the pipeline for some time next year, maybe they'll give them some actually functional rules in WD to try and sell them when they come out. FW dropped their dread claw model altogether, maybe GW's working on their own, and will release it along with white dwarf rules opening it up as a transport for some of our units? That would certainly change some things, I should think.

 

And in the mean time, while my opinions haven't changed in the least, I'm just tired of complaining about this stuff, so I think this is my last whine-fest on the topic, at least on these boards.

 

-------------------------

 

As for DA...

 

They shouldn't count their chickens before they're hatched. We had all sorts of wacky and awesome rumors right up until the moment we were released and ended up with our old dex plus a few half baked, tacked on garnishes. I see nothing to indicate DA are getting anything more then an ugly and overpriced giant land speeder, a bunch of melee terminators that aren't hammernators and as such don't matter, and a snubby little flier in no appreciable way different from the snubby little fliers other marines can already take. Sure they might be awesome, but again, after the chaos book, and with the surprise non-wardiness of the codex author, if I were a DA player I'd be pretty nervous right now.

[the jeske]

Khorne Lord + bokers + 2 drakes + havoks/oblits with an aegis! Suck it, Jeske, completely different build!

/lick does that even fit in to 1500? or is it 4 bikers and pms naked with plas no rhinos no champ upgrades?

 

 

Again, you can run other stuff. I've seen threads here and elsewhere trying to make the most out of suboptimal builds for thematic purposes, like "what's the best we can do with a list that prominently features thousand sons or sonic-armed noise marines", or even the Ahriman + bunch of terminators Jeske & others were hashing out in the terminator thread.

but those list arent optimal , they have auto lose match ups . SW dont have those problems , they can play mecha , they can play slogger and they can play drop pod[which in 6th is a mix of pod+slogger or mecha] and all good . trying to make something work does not equal good. 1kson for example if taken should be run as if flyers or stuff like tyfus zombi builds didnt exist , one makes the 1ksons list good against meq and play it like a DW build with lower sv and different kind of shoty.

 

All of that - a diverse book with strong internal balance, new options designed to make the book function in the new ruleset and to make running old fluff lists easier without returning to restrictive sub-lists, multiple competitive and functionally distinct builds without anything breaking the game - that's the treatment Chaos needed and, after 5 years with the gavdex, deserved.

true . I wonder what was stoping GW from giving people options to make a totaly different builds .

now imagine this . bile=bad HQ right now . but what if he made spawn/his failed experiments that didnt die , troops ? totaly different kind of build . suddenly maulers make sense , even dreads without pods make sense .

 

What if there were no chosen/terminators , but one choice which could buy termi armor and could be made troops with abadon . wing armies possible [by the way those would still be worse then DW , due to how cyclons +SS >combi plasma+power weapons].

 

How about making melee oblits+warpsmith something one actualy wants to pick . Imagine orc style FoC changes. take warpsmith[no changes to stats/gear/cost he has now] , put a unit of oblits of any kind in to troops ?

 

 

Funny enough I remember writing how the codex is going to look like 1+year ago . And I did say it would end up like this. Based on the gav dex , with dual kits , maybe some sort of upgrade character and maybe minimal FoC changes . As of right now it looks like this . our dex are based on the gav dex and always will be . Sw are and will be based on their 5th ed one . I cant wait for people reactions in 3-4 years , when a new SW dex comes out . It is going to be priceless. hell I cant wait to see people reactions about DAs .

[Brother Ambroz]

The now sucks remember?

 

Oh yes I know. My point was the thread isn't a comparison between different chaos codex books it's about the new DA rumors in comparision to our codex.

 

The now has been "play with nurgle or die" for a few years now. I hate nurgle.

 

:P Nurgle. There are other lists besides Epi that work.

 

HUGE MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT

 

;) Really good read once I focused and started to read it Agent Purple. Although remember the rumor that our codex "power level" is in line with all the new 6th edition codex books?

[Sception]

but those list arent optimal , they have auto lose match ups . SW dont have those problems , they can play mecha , they can play slogger and they can play drop pod[which in 6th is a mix of pod+slogger or mecha] and all good . trying to make something work does not equal good. 1kson for example if taken should be run as if flyers or stuff like tyfus zombi builds didnt exist , one makes the 1ksons list good against meq and play it like a DW build with lower sv and different kind of shoty.

 

This was my point.

 

true . I wonder what was stoping GW from giving people options to make a totaly different builds .

now imagine this . bile=bad HQ right now . but what if he made spawn/his failed experiments that didnt die , troops ? totaly different kind of build . suddenly maulers make sense , even dreads without pods make sense .

 

What if there were no chosen/terminators , but one choice which could buy termi armor and could be made troops with abadon . wing armies possible [by the way those would still be worse then DW , due to how cyclons +SS >combi plasma+power weapons].

 

How about making melee oblits+warpsmith something one actualy wants to pick . Imagine orc style FoC changes. take warpsmith[no changes to stats/gear/cost he has now] , put a unit of oblits of any kind in to troops ?

 

Imagine those wing armies, but where the reaper autocannon is actually good, iconic, and strong, and there are other chaos-only weapon options to enhance them. Imagine regular oblits just having mutable melee weapons as well, and that elite slot is saved for something more interesting, or for making possessed actually good. I like the idea of troop spawn, but I think the marks would need to be re-thought for nurgle to not be just 'the right choice'.

 

 

Funny enough I remember writing how the codex is going to look like 1+year ago . And I did say it would end up like this. Based on the gav dex , with dual kits , maybe some sort of upgrade character and maybe minimal FoC changes . As of right now it looks like this . our dex are based on the gav dex and always will be . Sw are and will be based on their 5th ed one . I cant wait for people reactions in 3-4 years , when a new SW dex comes out . It is going to be priceless. hell I cant wait to see people reactions about DAs .

 

My other point above, is that Dark Angels may get the treatment we got - based on their last book with just a couple bells and whistles added, and that would be sad news for them.

[Vesper]

The now has been "play with nurgle or die" for a few years now. I hate nurgle.

 

:P Nurgle. There are other lists besides Epi that work.

 

HUGE MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT

 

:P Really good read once I focused and started to read it Agent Purple. Although remember the rumor that our codex "power level" is in line with all the new 6th edition codex books?

 

In fact, the Epidemus list might end up being removed from the game by the next Daemon codex.

 

On the other topic, do you remember when GW said they were about to do something about the atrocity that was the gavdex ? I'm still waiting ;).

[techsoldaten]

I disagree with most of the comments made here about the new Codex, based on the standards people are using to judge it. The two things I disagree with are the ideas you need to have some OP troops to have a good Codex, and the idea there are not enough opportunities for varied builds. I would expect to see more problems in these areas in the real world if they were actually big problems, and I just don't.

 

The new Codex lacks any real overpowered choice on the FOC, this is something I agree with. But really, so what? Even if all our units are mediocre (not saying they are), the other factors that go into building a good army still apply. You have to have balance, you have to have choices for dealing with infantry / mech / AA, you have to have some HQ who is an outstanding threat, you have to have enough units that your enemy cannot target them all at the same time.

 

Complaining about the lack of a true OP threat doesn't address the issue of how you can compose your army, and I am pretty satisfied with the choices the current Codex gives us. Satisfied, not thrilled. I mean, sure, you have to deal with the big OP threats other armies can put on the table, but it's not these units that really make the difference. I am thinking about Long Fangs with all their missile launchers, TH / SS terminators, Tau and their Rail Guns, Necrons / GK and their weird powers, etc. I have tactics to deal with them, what's important is building a balanced list that can be imbalanced in the ways I want without much effort. There are other armies that have a harder time putting together lists to deal with the ones I bring to the table - namely, Eldar, Orks, Black Templars, Blood Angels, and IG. They either lack good shooting or are so dependent on buffs it's easy to take out an HQ and turn the tide.

 

The new Codex certainly does allow for some varied builds. There are like 10 Chaos players at my FLGS and all of our lists look very different (including one guy who is running Ahriman and Thousand Sons). I personally run Noise Marine spam and Chaos Bikers, but see lists that are built around terminators, land raiders, heldrakes / fiends, nurgle / zombies, alpha legion troops, TS / daemon allies and plasma chosen. For every one of these armies, guys are still trying out various combos, mostly centered on swapping out heavy weapons choices / allies and focusing on our main forces. While I am not the most competitive player in the world, some of those guys are very competitive and I would expect them to be complaining if they were losing games to SW / GK lists all the time. The opposite is true, we beat them more than they beat us. A lot of that is just knowing your enemy.

 

If the standard you use to judge your army is Daemon Bombs, CLs that wipe out a MEQ unit in one round, spamming the table with 1500 points of Spawn (which I did in 5th edition), etc, of course you are going to look at this as a faildex. The reality is that it's an imperfect book that requires some thought and creativity to work with. You are probably not going to find a list for it that simply wipes the table with all comers, and the codex itself definitely has some imperfections that are hard to ignore. But this Codex is not a complete failure - there just isn't a grand enough power differential between Chaos and other armies to say that.

[Kol Saresk]

So techsoldaten, could you sum that up as it's just a matter of actually learning how to use the new Codex instead of simply math-hammering at it against specific units we may or may not face and then saying ti's unviable in the same way that AP3 weapons are unviable because they don't go through the armor save on Terminators even though normal PA is still vulnerable?

[Brother Ambroz]

Knowing your enemy while your enemy doesn't know your codex is still a pretty huge advantage. Our book is still very new and I think when people start to realize what it's about then we'll start to see more losses. And balance? You're talking about balance in this game, I'm sorry but just looking at GK/Crons....where's the balance there?

 

Like what was said earlier, it is not being compared to 3.5 alone it's being compared to all the C:CSM books.

 

In fact, the Epidemus list might end up being removed from the game by the next Daemon codex.

 

On the other topic, do you remember when GW said they were about to do something about the atrocity that was the gavdex ? I'm still waiting .

 

Yeah it might but I dunno I have a feeling they left it there on purpose but then again if anything it's GW policy to make good units from previous codex books bad and bad units good.

 

Yeah.....I think they were satisfied with "doing something" when they had Kelly make this book.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah.....I think they were satisfied with "doing something" when they had Kelly make this book.

Wasn't everyone here until two days(roughly) after publishing?

[Brother Ambroz]

Yeah.....I think they were satisfied with "doing something" when they had Kelly make this book.

Wasn't everyone here until two days(roughly) after publishing?

 

Yeah until they'd had a decent read of the codex. When I first started skimming through the online version I started to get an idea but I kept hoping I was missing something when I read it....

[Deadman Wade]

Agree with what techsoldaten said. I haven't seen the list that couldn't be beaten without adding Double Anal Dragons or Obliterators to my army, switching CSM for Plague marines or something like that. I lose a lot, but it's not like I struggle or don't stand a chance against GK or SW (in fact, the only army that I haven't lost to is "overpowered" long fang spam).

I don't like new codex 'cause it's boring, but I'm completely satisfied with "power level". And as for new DA, if there's one thing that CSM do well it's fighting loyalists.