Dark Angels Rumors and Chaos Faildex...

[Rayray]

No tailoring for the robed boyz in red. And Polaria, maybe the guy needs advice and not debate. Or just motivation.

[Kol Saresk]

And see, that is understandable because there it becomes a question of do you just want to take Berzerkers for the heck of it or the CSM with MoK and some special weapons? However, that is not how most of the math-hammer I see presented is presented. Or rather, it from a different angle. Most of the math-hammer that I see on BnC is "This unit can do it better so the other is useless." not "This unit can do the same thing cheaper and better so do you want a unit that is more likely to survive or a unit that is more likely to die?"

 

As I said earlier, the Murder Sword is considered unviable. Why? Because except for that one character, it's basically an overcosted Power Sword. However, it's not the cost I see getting hit, it is the fact that is an AP3 power sword that is getting hit because AP3 can't handle Terminators. The irony of skipping what is normally seen as a waste of points usually makes me laugh because it's something only certain people say. Is it points efficient? Far from it. Should it ever be used against Terminators or anything else with an armor save of 2+? Heck no. Is it the smartest thing you can points into? No. For an extra ten points you can get MoK and trade it for an AoBF or shoot straight for the Black Mace. Those are instantly more viable options depending on how they are used and whether or not their attributes get to come into play. For example, a Black Mace is best when used on a DP because the Smash rule makes it AP2 and that is one of the more efficient set ups in avoiding the Champion table rolls because multi-wound minis are simply removed from play rather then being killed. AoBF, you lose a WS point. But you hit at +2 S and AP2. That's enough to kill Termies.

 

However, AP3 weapons such as the Brand and the Murder Sword, are still perfectly viable if you use them against normal PA Marines since normal Marines only have an armor save of three. But why are these unviable? Is it the points cost? No. It's because it cannot live up to the math-hammer of taking on a Terminator. That's why it's not viable. Not the points cost(ironically) and not the fact that kill normal PA just as effectively as any AP2, but because its AP value is useless against Terminators. That's the math-hammer I don't like.

[Brother Ambroz]

Like I said Kol, most people want to be able to take on anything. With a Murder Sword, that would be going to an HQ. So would you rather have your HQ with AP 3 and strength value? Or would you rather have extra attacks, more strength, removing models from play etc? I would consider using the murder sword with a Chaos lord if for the other weapon I used a powerfist/chainfist or power axe. Just because especially with an HQ model you want to be able to handle anything.

 

Also the Brand is generally considered a pretty good weapon.

[Kol Saresk]

If it's a big enough list, have one main HQ suited to take on everything a secondary HQ slotted up with the Murder Sword. Or, have something else that is equipped for the job with AP2 or better weapons deal with the Terminators other than the HQ. Target priority. While it may be nice, the HQ doesn't have to handle everything.

[Brother Ambroz]

True he doesn't. I guess I just like to have my CC units able to take on anything because that's what lords are best at really.

[the jeske]

But why are these unviable? Is it the points cost? No.

yes. the murder sword costs too much .

It's because it cannot live up to the math-hammer of taking on a Terminator.

it can not take on anything with a +2sv and there is more of it then just terminators . it also is a suck weapon , when combined with challangs , moving at I step etc.

That's why it's not viable. Not the points cost(ironically) and not the fact that kill normal PA just as effectively as any AP2, but because its AP value is useless against Terminators. That's the math-hammer I don't like.

-_- did you even read a review of the chaos dex anywhere ?

 

I do not respond well to "You will be doing X because your opponent will be doing Y with Unit 1 so taking Unit 2 will lose you the game because Unit 2 can never beat Unit 1 when you do X in response to Y.

of course , because we should be doing write ups for lists or tactics thinking that our opponents are stupid , take builds which dont work 99% of time or work under strange house rules . If that was true the list section may as well be removed . Why bother with making any lists or writing any tactica , when your opponent cant just take a 500 guants army at 2500 and just draw every game because it will take him the whole game to legaly move his whole army .

[derpasaurus]

In most competitive (or even casual) settings, you don't get the chance to see your opponents army and the terrain set-up before you write your army list, so you don't get to 'build your list accordingly.'

so you don't know if you're gonna play guard or sw or whatever until you deploy? not any game i've ever been in. terrain doesn't matter in my experience except for unit placement and general tactical changes. i've never had an army completely ruined by terrain. oh and every game at my store is mutual agreement on terrain. we'll work together to build a battlefield that looks good and makes sense. so while your argument may be true for your area, it is most certainly not true for mine.

i know, for example, when my friend says "I've got my deathwing" i don't play my raptors, i use my terminators and havocs. if he says he's got guard, i run with raptors and my vindicator. i don't understand how you can not know what your opponents army is going to be, unless you mean exactly what units he's fielding. and i never expect that.

i dunno, maybe i just missed your point. or maybe our metas are just that drastically different and mine is more friendly. i've never had trouble building a list because i had no idea what i was going to be facing, is all i'm really trying to say.

[Brother Ambroz]

Derp they're talking about competitive play....tourneys, leagues and such. You have to submit a list and play with the same list every game. You've never been to one?

[Ammonius]

I have been avoiding posting in theread all day, because I do not want to promote the name "Faildex", but here I am.

 

Here is what I have been running since Mid-November (from mrmory):

Chaos Lord: MoN, Terminator Armor, Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Blight Grenades.

CSM squad: 10 guys with CCW's, 2 melta guns, a Rhino, and a dual LC champion.

CSM squad: 10 guys with 2 plasma guns and a naked champion

PM squad: 7 guys with 2 melta guns and a naked plague champion

5 Spawn: MoN

5 more Spawn: MoN

Vindicator: Seige Shield

Vindicator: Siege Shield

Havocs: 4 Autocannons and a naked champion

 

 

What I do:

Think very carefully about terrain placement, giving myself a place for my Havocs to stand, and cluttering up my opponent's deployment zone with some impassable terrain against the back rail.

 

I deploy the spawn on the front edge of my deployment zone, full 2" coherency.

I put the vindicators behind the spawn, placed so that either a 6" move will give them a clear shot, or a 12" move will put them on high ground, or in cover. I put everything else where I can. The Lord walks with the PM's behind the spawn and vindicators. The rhino CSM squad go where they can get on an objective, or join a melee the spawn get into. The Plasma CSM squad goes on an objective, or where they can advance on a good target for the plasma guns. The Havocs go where they can hit as much of the board as possible.

 

Then, I run the spawn straight at the enemy lines, being beasts they get there fast. Being T6, they mostly get to combat. While they go forward, everything behind them is getting a cover save, and can usually manuver freely. I just live with the fact that this will work both ways, and if I can, I'll still lob Vindicator shells over my spawn.

 

Any infantry that the Spawn end up locked with, gets secondary charges from CSM's or the Lord+PMs. If the spawn kill their initial target and consolidate, or are killed before I can support them, I go for rapid fire range and cover. The rest of the battle, I just try to attack one thing with at least two things. I always ask myself two things: "What will lead to victory, or failing that, what will make my opponent work the hardest to beat my army?".

 

The other thing I do is try my best to have the grimmest, most intimidating looking army I can, so that when someone fails to wound something, I can say it's because they are painted and based -_-

 

So, my answer to a plasma heavy Dark Angel codex would/will be this: Bring it. If they get a "Crutchdex" then any amount of destruction I cause will be doubly satisfying.

[Kol Saresk]

But why are these unviable? Is it the points cost? No.

yes. the murder sword costs too much .

Well, gee if only I knew that already. Oh wait, I did.

As I said earlier, the Murder Sword is considered unviable. Why? Because except for that one character, it's basically an overcosted Power Sword.

So I'll ask you, did you actually read my post or just go for the parts you thought you could tear apart like you usually do?

[Dosjetka]

Wow. You're a happy bunch -_-

 

Ludovic

 

EDIT: Set thread to be closed in 3...

[Kol Saresk]

Wow. You're a happy bunch :rolleyes:

We try.

[Dosjetka]

We try.

You and Tanith do. Not sure about the others though... :rolleyes: (from what I've been able to read)

 

Ludovic

[techsoldaten]

You clearly didn't even bother reading my post. No where do I claim that only a straight analysis of points is relevant or that SW/GK will win every game. I disagree that a skilled player cannot read the book, look at it in the context of other similar MEQ books, and make an adequate judgement of balance. To try out every possible build against every possible opponent to 'learn from experience' what the codex has to offer would require substantially more games than most players could feasibly play.

I think I understood exactly what you said, you said that SW / BA / SM / GK can easily build balanced lists. I was saying not only is that not important, but the logic is incapable of estimating the tactical feats we can accomplish with Chaos using this edition's Codex.

 

As for handling NM's - you still need to get to mid field before you are effective. If I can pop 1 or 2 of your rhinos out of position (not hard to do in 6th ed) it will be difficult for you to concentrate firepower with all 4 of your sonics. If when I shoot your rhino wall, I score wrecked results (more likely in 6th), then your squad behind it will probably not have LOS and need a turn to reposition. Immobilized or stunned results will also screw up your alpha strike. If I am playing a mech or vehicle heavy army, I will just focus fire your LC havocs down and ignore your noise marines. Sonic marines are waste points against most flyers in the game. LOS blocking also cuts both ways. If my assaulting unit can only see 2 or 3 noise marines, your over watch fire probably isn't going to be very effective. Overwatch from even 30 shots isn't likely to kill more than 1 or 2 MEQs - at that point your sonic NM's are barely better than stock CSM.

Thank you for trying to explain my army to me. I appreciate you making the effort, even though your understanding of the mechanics does not agree with reality.

 

Were you and I to actually play, you would find I don't care about you shooting at my Rhinos. I typically lose 1 before the third turn, along with First Blood. As long as your units with things like Lascannons and missile launchers are shooting up my tanks, that's really good because it means my 2 units of bikers are not being challenged by anything they can't handle. They are going to charge something on your side of the board with 4 attacks per bike, and there's about a 90% chance you are going to lose 5 - 6 MEQ that round. Unless you are a Space Marine, there's a good chance your unit will flee the board the next round.

 

Even if it is easy to blow up 1 Rhino, it's very hard to blow up 4 in less than 4 rounds. Unless you are bringing 10 Long Fang squads and every one of them has a missile launcher, even the mathhammer is against you blowing up more than 1 of them before the third turn. By then, most of your troops are within 18 inches of my Rhinos, which are now depositing their passengers, forming a wall and setting you up for some nastiness. From there, games are very predictable - I am going to wipe out 1 - 2 MEQ units the next round, you are going to move something that costs a lot of points into position to respond, it is going to kill 3 or 4 NMs in one unit, the rest of my forces are going to wipe it out. Eventually, my Bikers are going to finish up with whatever you have in the backfield and start closing in on the center of the board.

 

2 - 3 of my Rhinos are going to be intact at the end of the game, along with 3 - 4 NM and 1 -2 biker squads, meaning I am giving up 4 - 6 victory points in unit kills through this process. My units are going to be killing 6 - 8 units when they play, and usually more now that I started bringing Lascannon havocs. As long as I kill more things than you do, I am going to beat you, and I doubt there is anything special about the way you play that is going to let you avoid this outcome.

 

The points you've invested in the NM's just aren't as scary as if you had invested in baledrakes or a brand lord to do the same job instead and brought cultists or MSU PM's to score. There are ways to counter NM - Baledrake with its torrent and move is much more difficult to avoid. Baledrake cannot be locked in CC. Baledrake is way more scary against 3+ save targets. NM require a turn (minimum) to set up before they are in a position to deal damage thanks to stupid salvo rules. This gives your opponent the opporunity to react and mitigate.

Tell that to me while I hand you a box of tissues after I table you. Be sure to whisper so no one can hear you choking up.

 

GKSS has similar firepower output with psycannons and psybolts, but is not crippled by salvo rules. More difficult to react to. GKSS has 30" threat range compared to NM 24 as well, plus can reliably land 1 or 2 S7 shots against fliers, and can blow apart transports and tanks as well. If you want to play this style army, why not take a core of GKSS, and then ally in 2 T-wolf characters and some lascannon fangs as a biker substitute? GKSS also get dirt cheap force multipliers and access to tech that denies infiltrate, deep strike, and can themselves deep strike if it is advantageous to do so.

I could care less about GK, they don't have T5 bikers with 4 attacks on the charge or a Black Mace with a Cursed rule. Not having something to compliment those special guns diminishes their value in the game and gives me opportunities to deal with them harshly.

 

The reason my list works is because there is synergy between the bikers and the noise marines, they are both mobile and attacking one generally comes at the expense of ignoring the other. It tends to disorient players and make them do stupid stuff. Unless the GK list is constructed along similar lines, odds are they are going to be trapped by the Rhino wall like a lot of other armies. When that happens, I have the upper hand and know how to use it.

[Agent Purple]

Derp they're talking about competitive play....tourneys, leagues and such. You have to submit a list and play with the same list every game. You've never been to one?

 

 

Some casual leagues also require fixed lists, or some stores have a 'build list before coming to game night' etiquette where you use the same list for the games you get in.

 

Certain players also have several armies etc...

 

It's always possible to build a hard counter for a specific player's army. Showing up on game night where everyone tools against you starts to get old really fast, and the players with the larger collections start to get a huge advantage over players with small collections who can only field 1 army with a few variations.

 

If you plan on being a competitive gamer, even if you could tool lists for casual pick up games, you wouldn't because you don't get that luxury at a tournament and it denies you a chance to practice and build tactics with your competitive list.

[Lieutenant Steel]

Tactics is essentially the application of Math-Hammer, in a practical sense.

 

You look at each scenario and weigh up the best outcome, then you try to manipulate events into giving you the greatest chance of getting the outcome you desire.

 

I hope that the new DA codex doesn't mean that we'll see a SM army with tons of plasma units, as the only foreseeable outcome will be a shift in meta towards more TH/SS Termies, more AV13+ Vehicles, more Flyers and more cheap cultists units. Elite units will be less viable and anything that is a points sink will be avoided unless it offers a lot of redundancy. This will basically leave the CSM codex with Heldrakes, Land Raiders and Cultists which is about as competitive a line up as a wet noodle.

 

I do like the look of the the hooded Terminators, though I highly doubt they will be particularly well thought of if they have no defensive measure apart from the 5+ Invuln on TDA, regardless of their offensive output.

[RapatoR]

Wow. Positive reviews on BoLS, 3++ and even YTTH with hyper-competetive admin, but suddenly is our dex bad?

[Dosjetka]

Wow. Positive reviews on BoLS, 3++ and even YTTH with hyper-competetive admin, but suddenly is our dex bad?

Exactly my thoughts. But then again, they're probably all just taking MoN. :rolleyes:

 

Ludovic

 

EDIT: Anyway, I'm off to bed. Have fun :3

[Kol Saresk]

Wow. Positive reviews on BoLS, 3++ and even YTTH with hyper-competetive admin, but suddenly is our dex bad?

Yep.

[Sception]

Oh no, some posters are unhappy about a sub-par release, and refuse to pretend to be even while they do their best to make the most of it! Even Jeske has contributed constructive thoughts on viable builds and making the most of less viable builds (see his input in the terminator thread). Is the complaining overmuch? Sure, but it's also to be expected, and apologists casting the discussion in terms of "if you don't drink the cool aid you're a worthless whiner" is as unproductive as anything the naysayers do. Tyranid complainers only died down when the defenders of the book acknowledged its issues and stopped demanding that the complainers lie to themselves about the state of their book. Their boards got a lot more constructive when the discussion was allowed to move from 'is it bad or not' to 'fine, it's bad, what can we do in spite of it?'

 

And some of those positive reviews have been crumbling. The BoLS reviewer had an article just a few weeks after the positive review basically boiling down to "this book is boring and unfun to make lists for". Several other positive reviews I've read boil down to non-chaos players saying "yay, an end to codex creep", as in "yay, after a succession of strong books that changed the meta and made me re-think my army, finally there's a weak book that I can comfortably ignore".

 

I'm reminded of Final Fantasy 8. Glowing reviews from everyone at the time of release. Within a year those reviews were cracking, and one magazine even published a retraction lowering their review score. In time, appreciation grew, and that may be the case with our book in time, but at the moment it's still a lot of willfully blind over-rating and excessively antagonistic overreactions to the same.

[Agent Purple]

Tell that to me while I hand you a box of tissues after I table you. Be sure to whisper so no one can hear you choking up.

 

You are totally right. Noise marines with dual bikes is clearly the best chaos list, we're all stupid to have missed it. How silly of me to not realize how difficult it is to kill more than 1 rhino in three turns of shooting... There is no answer to your army. You've clearly theory hammered it all out.

 

Clearly we should and you the king of 40k crown.

[Brother Ambroz]

Agent Purple - I wrote a simple explanation for someone who didn't understand....

 

This thread has gotten an awful lot of popularity. :rolleyes:

[Kol Saresk]

Tell that to me while I hand you a box of tissues after I table you. Be sure to whisper so no one can hear you choking up.

 

You are totally right. Noise marines with dual bikes is clearly the best chaos list, we're all stupid to have missed it. How silly of me to not realize how difficult it is to kill more than 1 rhino in three turns of shooting... There is no answer to your army. You've clearly theory hammered it all out.

 

Clearly we should and you the king of 40k crown.

That's not what he said and you know it.

[Brother Amarel]

There's too much of the passive-aggressive attitude from both sides of the fence, imo.

 

Most of us play in different meta's to each other and that will, of course, cause differences in many opinions. How about everyone is a little more polite to each other.

[Agent Purple]

Tell that to me while I hand you a box of tissues after I table you. Be sure to whisper so no one can hear you choking up.

 

You are totally right. Noise marines with dual bikes is clearly the best chaos list, we're all stupid to have missed it. How silly of me to not realize how difficult it is to kill more than 1 rhino in three turns of shooting... There is no answer to your army. You've clearly theory hammered it all out.

 

Clearly we should and you the king of 40k crown.

That's not what he said and you know it.

 

It's exactly what he said. He describes in detail how he is going to table me so hard that I will cry, without even knowing the codex or army I would bring, and that "As long as I kill more things than you do, I am going to beat you, and I doubt there is anything special about the way you play that is going to let you avoid this outcome."

 

What conclusion out of his post can we possibly reach other than that his army is unbeatable?