techsoldaten Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Tell that to me while I hand you a box of tissues after I table you. Be sure to whisper so no one can hear you choking up. You are totally right. Noise marines with dual bikes is clearly the best chaos list, we're all stupid to have missed it. How silly of me to not realize how difficult it is to kill more than 1 rhino in three turns of shooting... There is no answer to your army. You've clearly theory hammered it all out. Clearly we should and you the king of 40k crown. Thank you for the comment. I have never said my army list is the best someone can do with the Chaos codex. I am only winning about 66% of games with it, which I am satisfied with for right now. All of my other lists have better winning percentages, this one simply happens to be the one I use the most and an example that demonstrates a point. What I am saying is that people are overestimating the mathematical basis for constructing armies, typically at the expense of tactics that can be performed with the combination of several units (aka synergy). Mathhammer plays a role in composing a list, but it's not possible to estimate the value of tactics on a mathematical basis. People complaining about the 6th edition Codex consistently do so by pointing at the math, to the exclusion of other perspectives, and it's somewhat dishonest to belittle them in the manner you seem to want to do so badly. Moreover, it's simply not constructive to say that other armies have better units. It's a fact they do, and some of our units are pretty good too. It just does not need to come up over and over again. The challenge is to produce better Chaos armies capable of winning consistently - I don't see using this board as an echo chamber as a way to achieve that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3272790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 His post is explaining why his list that is supposed to be inferior and unuseable according to math-hammer is actually useable. As right now, you are one of the biggest hitters on saying why it shouldn't work, he used you as an example to say why it does work and he showed why it does work why you only keep saying why it shouldn't work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3272791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Tell that to me while I hand you a box of tissues after I table you. Be sure to whisper so no one can hear you choking up. You are totally right. Noise marines with dual bikes is clearly the best chaos list, we're all stupid to have missed it. How silly of me to not realize how difficult it is to kill more than 1 rhino in three turns of shooting... There is no answer to your army. You've clearly theory hammered it all out. Clearly we should and you the king of 40k crown. That's not what he said and you know it. It's exactly what he said. He describes in detail how he is going to table me so hard that I will cry, without even knowing the codex or army I would bring, and that "As long as I kill more things than you do, I am going to beat you, and I doubt there is anything special about the way you play that is going to let you avoid this outcome." What conclusion out of his post can we possibly reach other than that his army is unbeatable? Just to be clear - I can care less about what army you bring. Worst case scenario, I am going to lose and learn how to deal with you the next time. I don't really play to win so much as play to test out tactics right now, the Codex is still too new. But the odds are you are going to try getting into a shooting match with my Noise Marines and they are going to flatten you. That's what happens most times, against most armies, and I have a lot of success in that situation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3272794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Bro Amarel it's not really passive anymore, kinda why I'm not posting anymore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3272800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Purple just stop trying . I went through this in 4th start of 5th . Kol is unable to understand what your saying . But the odds are you are going to try getting into a shooting match with my Noise Marines and they are going to flatten you. could you be more precise how this happens . specialy with sonic armed NM costing a lot and you giving them rhinos and those sonics being salvo . If you could also explain how would you do it at 1500 , I would be very grateful . Mathhammer plays a role in composing a list, but it's not possible to estimate the value of tactics on a mathematical basis realy ? so lets say I want to make a plasma hvy SW army and add drop pods to my GH squads , you think it is impossible to judge how those pods are better for such a tactic , then walking or using rhinos ? There's too much of the passive-aggressive attitude from both sides of the fence, imo. I dont do passive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3272937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Purple just stop trying . I went through this in 4th start of 5th . Kol is unable to understand what your saying . Most of purple's posts, have been to techsoldaten, not me. There's only a handful directed towards me, and one of them is over the presentation one of techsoldaten's posts. This sudden lack of reading from you is really starting to scare me man. Of course, it might just be to my lack of capability to understand big words and complex formulas like "superior" and "2+2=4" respectively. At least, I think 2+2=4, it might equal 5 with my mathematical comprehension. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3272958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I did this with legatus in the 5th , I can do this again in the 6th with you . I read your stuff here just fine . And you are wrong in judging of 6th ed , viability of the chaos and other dex [thank you for the SW not worth to worry about , because no longer viable in tournaments settings by the way . we had a blast reading that] or the way stuff is judged to be good/bad or how lists are build. I dont know if your trolling or If the place you play in is so different from place like Purple ,me or many other play , because what you say makes little or no sense . Being unable to learn to play ? realy you accuse people pointing the limits of this dex of that ? Then where are the builds , why do all the builds who end up ranked high enough to be noticed look like clones ? I have seen that awesome khorn "build" . Replacing everything nurgle with khorn , trying to run melee units in a melee nerf edition ? a 1-2turn fast preasure list when flyer transports are hard counter to melee ? And I and other like me are suppose to be unable to learn the new dex and see that awesome stuff in it ? I dont do math at all . I dont have to . But man If your telling me , that it is impossible to judge what a marbo or a few GH drop pods do to an armies efficiency , then I dont think we have much to talk about here about army building . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3272977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pivich Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Knowing your enemy while your enemy doesn't know your codex is still a pretty huge advantage. Our book is still very new and I think when people start to realize what it's about then we'll start to see more losses. They know, because it's mostly the same book and the same units they faced last 4 years... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3272978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Are you sure your reading is fine? Because you took a sentence of sarcasm, and repeated almost exactly what I said at the beginning of the paragraph. And you have done the same thing on other posts and threads as well and to other people and since you keep doing it, I have to wonder if it is on purpose or if it is getting lost in translation or what. Once, is an accident. Twice is a coincidence. Three or more? Well, I'm not capable of understanding that logic but you might. Also, haven't you told me imagining is bad? I clearly remember you telling me that but if you want to use it for an example I guess it can't be that bad. And no, I didn't say the SW was not tournament capable, just that from people's battle reports, you know factual data, it wasn't as capable as it used to be. Of course, with the apparent lack of reasoning on my part, it is entirely possible I forced you to misunderstand and misquote me. And out of curiosity, where have I said anyone was unable to play? I'm too stupid to know whether or not if I have read that so please explain. Also, where have I brought up a Khorne build versus a Nurgle build? I know there's the part where I said if Berzerkers are so unviable then someone needs to go over to the Throne of Skulls forum(the actual forum, not the subforum of BnC) and tell them because they are convinced they can make a decent Berzerker list. No, that's not accurate. they are convinced they can and have made decent Berzerker lists. And the argument hasn't been against people who are incapable of learning to play the Codex(which I don't think anyone truly is but apparently I can't think) but against those who refuse to learn any other way except for what "teh internet" says is without a doubt the only build of this Codex that can be used. Of course, this is after the Khorne list that once upon a time, you said was the "optimal" list and the list that everyone was going to play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3272986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Knowing your enemy while your enemy doesn't know your codex is still a pretty huge advantage. Our book is still very new and I think when people start to realize what it's about then we'll start to see more losses. They know, because it's mostly the same book and the same units they faced last 4 years... Yeah....except for juggerlords with spawn retinues, super cheap bikes, helldrakes, high initiative DPs with D6 extra attacks, forgefiends, maulerfiends, new daemon weapons, kickass sorcerors, super cheap preds/havocs......do I need to go on? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3273025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pivich Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Knowing your enemy while your enemy doesn't know your codex is still a pretty huge advantage. Our book is still very new and I think when people start to realize what it's about then we'll start to see more losses. They know, because it's mostly the same book and the same units they faced last 4 years... Yeah....except for juggerlords with spawn retinues, super cheap bikes, helldrakes, high initiative DPs with D6 extra attacks, forgefiends, maulerfiends, new daemon weapons, kickass sorcerors, super cheap preds/havocs......do I need to go on? The only "new" unit here is helldrakes and fiends. 5 daemon weapon's is really hard to remember (and they will be mace, axe and brand, i guess). bikes, lords, sorcerers - just pointcosts altered, no special abilities or USR's. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3273063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Points altering is enough to get used to. Just look at SW. Their GH aren't insanely powerful, they're just really good for their points. Took people awhile to look out for them. Unless you've got the codex there will be things you'll forget unless you play them enough. You can say they'll remember it all the first time you play them but I'll still doubt it. It's not really about the new units either it's more about learning how they're played and what they're capable of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3273069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Well if "new" is never before seen, then there is the Heldrake and the Fiends, the Mutilators, and the Warp Talons. Also, the Mace and AoBR are the only daemon weapons in this Codex. Everything else is just a "special weapon." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3273071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Speaking of the Mutilators, it's a question of fate. Nobody will ever see one of those. They'll become a myth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3273072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Wade Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I thought a chaos guy won some big UK tournament using mutialtors, no? There was a topic somewhere here in this subforum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3273105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 He took one mutilator to use as a distraction unit, he was trialing it out. He ended up getting third if I remember correctly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3273146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaria Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Mathhammer plays a role in composing a list, but it's not possible to estimate the value of tactics on a mathematical basis realy ? so lets say I want to make a plasma hvy SW army and add drop pods to my GH squads , you think it is impossible to judge how those pods are better for such a tactic , then walking or using rhinos ? It is not impossible to judge it, but in order to get a mathematical result that is any better than wild-ass guess you would have to take into account so many variables that I am quite certain most people can't do that math and even for those who can do it will take quite a bit of time. In this kind of cases much of what you see passed for mathematics in the internet is extrapolated and simplified so much that in the end it hold little value on the table. Everyone can see that getting a two plasmaguns within 12" of enemy on turn 1 is better than getting two plasmaguns within 12" of enemy on turn 3. However, how many can actually calculate the odds of Deep Strike mishap with the drop pod, the odds that the most dangerous enemies are still in reserve during turn 1 or how likely the rhino is destroyed before getting to same range? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3273168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I thought a chaos guy won some big UK tournament using mutialtors, no? This, right here, is how rumours start :tu:. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3273214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I thought a chaos guy won some big UK tournament using mutialtors, no? This, right here, is how rumours start :tu:. Beggining of the Mutilator myth. That CSM god unit that no one knows about. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3273411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I thought a chaos guy won some big UK tournament using mutialtors, no? This, right here, is how rumours start ;). Beggining of the Mutilator myth. That CSM god unit that no one knows about. Mutilators: It's what seperates the boys from the men. :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3273421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Hehe, it was one mutilator, and it was not really a strategic decision when he built the list, and it only worked as a distraction most of the time. There was a podcast somewhere... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3273437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Hehe, it was one mutilator, and it was not really a strategic decision when he built the list, and it only worked as a distraction most of the time. There was a podcast somewhere... Here's how I see it : a Mutilator single-handedly placed a Chaos player in the top three of a tournament. Now imagine what two of those ultimate Chaos weapons could do... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3273452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 i heard it was a mutilator that warned abaddon of that warlord titan creed outflanked from behind a parkbench... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3273521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I think it's confirmed in WD777 that there's only two Mutilators and they're actually the two missing Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3273530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 I think it's confirmed in WD777 that there's only two Mutilators and they're actually the two missing Primarchs. Nah it was in WD666 on page 23 paragraph 2 starting with the 3rd sentence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268622-dark-angels-rumors-and-chaos-faildex/page/6/#findComment-3273537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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