Dark Angels Rumors and Chaos Faildex...

[Vesper]

It might turn into another Faildex, but that is in the future and when it happens, if it happens, then I will treat it as a Faildex, not because the Codex itself was a failure but because GW failed to live up to the 6th Edition standard that they had created.

 

I think we overestimate GW a lot. We infere Necrons, GK and who knows what were made with 6th in mind. Then, new Chaos pop out : "Hey, that is what 6th ed codices will look like !". No. GW does everything and its contrary without any logic and we can't rely on common sense to try to predict what the future codices will look like as we've all witnessed their inability to streamline balanced and well thought codices that follow a same pattern, a same orientation in the unit and the builds making that make sense with the rest of the armies and the metagame in general.

 

They are unable to do that. That's why I don't blame them. Yet, what sucks is the shape of the dev-team, which is the worst 40k ever had (and if JJ comes back to put his hands in the codex writing process, then, well, all that could save 40k is a mercy killing). And that isn't a really good sign for the future of the game.

[Brother Amarel]

But since Faildex was one of the names that I have seen used for the Gavdex I was making sure that the OP was talking about this edition and not the previous edition. And like I said, some have said that are basically the same thing. "They might as well be the same Codex" is almost the same as saying they are. Especially with Purple's continued comparison of the Nurgle list with the Dual-Lash list. But saying they are directly the same would be incorrect for obvious reasons. That combined with the fact that we are not yet confined solely to the monobuild parameters in order to "just get by" means that there is another level of separation. So, while it may not be the best of the best, it is not the worst of the worst, which at the moment is degrees better than the Faildex of 4th and 5th edition. It might turn into another Faildex, but that is in the future and when it happens, if it happens, then I will treat it as a Faildex, not because the Codex itself was a failure but because GW failed to live up to the 6th Edition standard that they had created.

I guess, currently, to a number of players, it's more the 'dissapointdex', which is where C:CSMeh comes from, I guess. I've won more than I've lost with it so far (with the usual dollops of luck and so forth), but it's not an exciting codex to me (not like HH:Betrayal, for example).

[Zhorzh]

A couple of months ago, a guy in our club who's been playing 40K since 2nd Ed predicted that no matter how much good the CSM codex ends up, it will start sucking when future 6th edition codexes get released; because apparently it's a 40K tradition that the first codex of the new edition always gets the short end of the stick. Something to keep in mind I guess. :tu:

 

Personally, I am kinda optimistic. I have a strong hunch that the current CSM codex is specifically designed to work with the future Chaos Daemon codex and Daemon allies. Consider this:

 

-GW introduced the ally mechanic to squeaze extra money from the players, so it's in their best interest that you use allies;

-Many players have noticed that the codex lacks in some departments, holes probably left deliberately by the dev team. How to fill those holes - with allies;

-Daemons are our Battle Brothers,

-The only way to run 40K daemons that makes sence is as CSM allies.

 

Now anything can happen since people from GW only look at the sales charts and listen to the voices in their heads, but this makes sence to me.

 

...streamline balanced and well thought codices that follow a same pattern, a same orientation in the unit and the builds making that make sense with the rest of the armies and the metagame in general.

 

They are unable to do that.

 

Oh, but they are, they just don't give a damn. GW doesn't have a big rival, a powerful competitor on the market. So why should they try hard when they don't have to? Their games are very popular and unless they screw up big time, they will continue to be very popular. If there was another huge company which produced miniature games, GW would put a lot more effort.

[Vesper]

Oh, but they are, they just don't give a damn. GW doesn't have a big rival, a powerful competitor on the market. So why should they try hard when they don't have to? Their games are very popular and unless they screw up big time, they will continue to be very popular. If there was another huge company which produced miniature games, GW would put a lot more effort.

 

While I'm sure they don't give a darn about it, I'm also convinced they are just not good enough to make it.

[LordRoY]

A couple of months ago, a guy in our club who's been playing 40K since 2nd Ed predicted that no matter how much good the CSM codex ends up, it will start sucking when future 6th edition codexes get released; because apparently it's a 40K tradition that the first codex of the new edition always gets the short end of the stick.

 

This was something I said back when the 6th edition hardback was released, that whatever the first 6th ed codex was to be released would be the whipping dog until 7th edition... I have been playing since RT days and have seen this over and over again. While I was delighted that my CSM had a new codex, I wish it would not have been first.

[Iron Warrior w/ Servo Arm]

Personally, I am kinda optimistic. I have a strong hunch that the current CSM codex is specifically designed to work with the future Chaos Daemon codex and Daemon allies. Consider this:

 

-GW introduced the ally mechanic to squeaze extra money from the players, so it's in their best interest that you use allies;

-Many players have noticed that the codex lacks in some departments, holes probably left deliberately by the dev team. How to fill those holes - with allies;

-Daemons are our Battle Brothers,

-The only way to run 40K daemons that makes sence is as CSM allies.

 

Now anything can happen since people from GW only look at the sales charts and listen to the voices in their heads, but this makes sence to me.

 

When the Gavdex (ew) was released, people were all clamouring about how awesome it would be that Chaos: Legions are arriving soon, etc. We all see how well that worked out.

[Kol Saresk]

When the Gavdex (ew) was released, people were all clamouring about how awesome it would be that Chaos: Legions are arriving soon, etc. We all see how well that worked out.

Why were they expecting a Legions release when the Codex itself was for warbands, said it was for warbands and gave a rather strong impression that the Legions were broken into warbands?

[Hazath]

When the Gavdex (ew) was released, people were all clamouring about how awesome it would be that Chaos: Legions are arriving soon, etc. We all see how well that worked out.

Why were they expecting a Legions release when the Codex itself was for warbands, said it was for warbands and gave a rather strong impression that the Legions were broken into warbands?

 

Back then, it was rumoured that Legion rules or codex would be released afterward.

[Kol Saresk]

So shouldn't that be evidence for disbelieving rumors of good tiding? Well that combined with the good tidings rumor of the Legions being split between three different Codices and then one Codex specifically for Legions and then a super-Codex with an amazing Dark Apostle and an amazing "Iron Warriors character"? Or is that too logical of a conclusion unless it involves only Chaos rumors?

[Excessus]

I thought it was called a Mohel.

What is a mohel and why would it separate me from boys?

 

A mohel is a person trained to perform the jewish circumcission.

Mohel/mutilator. Same, same but different?

Ah one of those religious peoples...

 

I tend to not let imaginary beings dictate if I want to be mutilated or not thank you...

[Kol Saresk]

I thought it was called a Mohel.

What is a mohel and why would it separate me from boys?

 

A mohel is a person trained to perform the jewish circumcission.

Mohel/mutilator. Same, same but different?

Ah one of those religious peoples...

 

I tend to not let imaginary beings dictate if I want to be mutilated or not thank you...

Okay, calm down. And everybody else, calm down before you respond. I know I am hardly the voice of reason but at least stay related to the forum if not the topic.

[Rik Riorik]

I thought it was called a Mohel.

What is a mohel and why would it separate me from boys?

 

A mohel is a person trained to perform the jewish circumcission.

Mohel/mutilator. Same, same but different?

Ah one of those religious peoples...

 

I tend to not let imaginary beings dictate if I want to be mutilated or not thank you...

Okay, calm down. And everybody else, calm down before you respond. I know I am hardly the voice of reason but at least stay related to the forum if not the topic.

 

Haha! It's was a gag and a play with words the whole mutilator/mohel thing and it started on page 6. But it ceases to be funny the moment it's misconstrued. Lets just have the people who found it funny have a laugh at it and the rest ignoring it. Was never meant to be anything more than a little funny addendum to what else I wrote in my first post in this thread anyways.

[LordRoY]

Haha! It's was a gag and a play with words the whole mutilator/mohel thing and it started on page 6. But it ceases to be funny the moment it's misconstrued. Lets just have the people who found it funny have a laugh at it and the rest ignoring it. Was never meant to be anything more than a little funny addendum to what else I wrote in my first post in this thread anyways.

 

Yes, lets not make mountians out of mohels...

 

:D

[minigun762]

Let's move on from anything close to discussions of real life religions please.

Better safe than sorry.

[the jeske]

When the Gavdex (ew) was released, people were all clamouring about how awesome it would be that Chaos: Legions are arriving soon, etc. We all see how well that worked out.

Why were they expecting a Legions release when the Codex itself was for warbands, said it was for warbands and gave a rather strong impression that the Legions were broken into warbands?

 

Back then, it was rumoured that Legion rules or codex would be released afterward.

and it was or rather is . they just forgot to tell you that the whole legion thing is FW , that it is ment to be played in a closed enviroment and is ment for big/"cinematic"[aka ultra long] games .

 

no one who is leaking actual rumors , is going to tell you stuff like " yeah in 2 years the codex is going to be like x, y ,z and nids are droped for 6th , because the DT has no idea how to balance/make them , if they do them it is going to be second half of 6th probably one of the two last dex[ment for 7th] . that is of course if they find a way to fit them in [the problem being they want to sell big kits , but it is hard to balance them against marines who are their main sellers]. "

 

If someone did that they would lose their job and worse will have problems getting a job in the future , at least in the toy/table top games industry .

[Brother Ambroz]

I think it's getting to the point where it's just about official. They're starting to post leaked images of rules and rulepages. It's really starting to look as if DA will be overpowered. AV 14 F/S fast speeder, stealth bikers...The idea that our codex is the new "power level" of 6th isn't holding up too well.

[LordRoY]

I think it's getting to the point where it's just about official. They're starting to post leaked images of rules and rulepages. It's really starting to look as if DA will be overpowered. AV 14 F/S fast speeder, stealth bikers...The idea that our codex is the new "power level" of 6th isn't holding up too well.

 

I noticed this and started getting out my empty boxes from the closet (to fill with my 15-20k of chaos). I wonder how long til 7th?

[the jeske]

I think it's getting to the point where it's just about official. They're starting to post leaked images of rules and rulepages. It's really starting to look as if DA will be overpowered. AV 14 F/S fast speeder, stealth bikers...The idea that our codex is the new "power level" of 6th isn't holding up too well.

1 speeder and it isnt av14 on its butt and to make the bikes stealth you have to buy a hvy support choice , be in range of the shroud bubble and either turno boost or have a librarian cast a psychic power , but then it is one unit only [well one unit only of uber stealth].

[EumenesDominatus]

I think we are still suffering from the 3.5 dex. It was overpowered, a little complicated, and may not be what GW intended for CSM. I'll explain the last part as it seems a bit controversial. The 3.5 dex created legion lists 10k years after most of the legions (with several exceptions) devolved into warbands scouring the galaxy killing as many imperials as they could find or roaming the EoT trying to gain the favor of their patron god(s). I feel it created the idea that all of these survivors of the HH are unified in some common goal, this does happen form time to time when Abaddon calls a Black Crusade, but in all reality CSM are just a collection of power hungry guys in power armor that are unified under a Lord with sufficient strength of personality and arms to control them. Now there are exceptions with a few legions still having unified goals and structures but in general we are dealing with warbands of powerful Lords, DPs, or Sorcerers and their followers. This really just my opinion and I'm sure plenty of people disagree with me on this.

 

Now getting to my main point, GW seems to be a little gun shy with the last two Chaos codices. They appear to not want to create something completely overpowered, which is weird because they have done this with many 5th ed codices. (I'm looking at you GK and Necrons.) But they are given a challenge with making a Chaos codex, they have to include 9+ fairly unique forces within it's pages and not make any one of them or any combination of them ridiculous. So instead of making a solid codex that is competitive with other like codices, they purposely gimp it to make a simpler codex and not some overly complicated monstrosity of OP-ness. This, to me, is because of what they did with 3.5. That codex was not a simple, new player friendly book, it gave too many options that could be abused too easily once you understand how the game works. We all see the 3.5 dex as some gold standard in which to measure all future chaos codices but in reality it is not the direction GW chose to go, they went with the minimalist codex and we have to live with it even with dreams of what chaos used to be.

[Ammonius]

I think it's getting to the point where it's just about official. They're starting to post leaked images of rules and rulepages. It's really starting to look as if DA will be overpowered. AV 14 F/S fast speeder, stealth bikers...The idea that our codex is the new "power level" of 6th isn't holding up too well.

It seems that stealth is something that is best countered by a (series of) Baleflamer(s) and/or a Burning Brand*. Whether this is a sign of balance, or pushing a new pricey model kit is anyone's guess.

 

 

*From the Chaos codex, there are of course other options if you take allies.

[Iron Warrior w/ Servo Arm]

Now getting to my main point, GW seems to be a little gun shy with the last two Chaos codices. They appear to not want to create something completely overpowered, which is weird because they have done this with many 5th ed codices. (I'm looking at you GK and Necrons.) But they are given a challenge with making a Chaos codex, they have to include 9+ fairly unique forces within it's pages and not make any one of them or any combination of them ridiculous. So instead of making a solid codex that is competitive with other like codices, they purposely gimp it to make a simpler codex and not some overly complicated monstrosity of OP-ness. This, to me, is because of what they did with 3.5. That codex was not a simple, new player friendly book, it gave too many options that could be abused too easily once you understand how the game works. We all see the 3.5 dex as some gold standard in which to measure all future chaos codices but in reality it is not the direction GW chose to go, they went with the minimalist codex and we have to live with it even with dreams of what chaos used to be.

 

I have to disagree. The 3.5 dex is the only dex that included the different legions shown in the IA articles. It allowed every legion player to represent their respective legion accordingly. The different options allowed a player to tool his/her Lord/Lieutenant/Prince exactly how they wanted, and it felt like a proper chaos army. We chaos players hold the 3.5 as the gold standard, as you say, because it allows us to represent the armies we had, properly. No other codex, except the rules from IA, allowed us this freedom. It's not a matter of being overpowered. It's a problem of lack of representation.

 

Honestly imagine if we got rid of Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars, Dark Angels codexes. Every of these Space Marine chapters should be represented by the vanilla codex. SM players will not be happy. They will think back on the days when they had their own codexes and rules. Why? Because the fluff for their chapters are not correctly represented by the vanilla dex. Players want freedom to play what they want without being gimped. Unfortunately Chaos is on the short end of the stick.

 

Also, I don't buy the whole "too many options" argument. Most codexes I have back in that era had tons of options.

[the jeske]

I feel it created the idea that all of these survivors of the HH are unified in some common goal,

what goals ? the 3.5 said nothing about goals . It let you make a legion force . Because dudes that were trained to fight in a specific way will fight the same way . plague marine havocks didnt make sense ? cult termis didnt make sense ? sonic weapons on tanks or havocks didnt make sense ? And all this 3.5 was overpowered . which builds ? 1ksons maybe ? or how about AL or NL ? those were armies that ranged from suck to for fun. same with WB which werent a demon bomb or a gunline.

I mean even those armies people that people think were op , werent . IW gunlines ? eldar best friend . BL khorn , good army till it runs in to a nidzilla. syren builds ?OP as hell unless you play nids which can position themself in a such a way that the prince dies either from shoting or from being charged by stealers and you couldnt syren both . demon bombs ? brutal against minimax builds ... meq ones , because elder circus with tis 6 man harli squads gave the chaos player a feeling only a zerker army based player playing against necron scythwing can know.

 

and If someone says he has problems with counting to 100 and to 50 and deal with a single page [or non if he plays non legion] of rules , well then maybe w40k isnt for him . I mean with all the boon rules , random psychic powers , huron psychic powers rolled every turn he may get problem with this dex too.

[Brother Ambroz]

1 speeder and it isnt av14 on its butt and to make the bikes stealth you have to buy a hvy support choice , be in range of the shroud bubble and either turno boost or have a librarian cast a psychic power , but then it is one unit only [well one unit only of uber stealth].

 

From what I read it wasn't just a 0-1 options and AV 14 on Front/Side like I posted earlier. Regardless those are only two examples. Thanks for once again cherry picking parts of a paragraph.

 

@Ammonius - Yeah that's what I was thinking but then you have to deal with their new "jetfighters" if you use the baleflamer.

[EumenesDominatus]

There should be a warning here to never, ever, ever even imply that there was anything bad about the 3.5 dex.

 

I personally liked the 3.5 dex. I was simply trying to explain why I think we have gotten the past two books from GW. I guess playing devil's advocate for GW is bad?

[Brother Ambroz]

It's usually a good idea to avoid mentioning the 3.5 dex.