Wolf standards, wolf guard, and you.

[skeletoro]

I've been thinking a lot about wolf guard loadouts, for, well, quite a while. One thing that's sad about wolf guard units is that although wolf guard are amazing if used right, they don't get access to the best piece of wargear in the codex: the wolf standard.

 

As you all know, wolf standards allow to you reroll all rolls of one during one assault phase per game (you need to declare you're using it before the start of that phase). For attacks, this is pretty good and basically an assault phase worth of preferred enemy per game. This means 1/6 extra hits, and of those hits, 1/6 extra wounds. All up? About 36% more kills. That in itself is fantastic.

 

Note that this 36% figure stays constant, pretty much regardless of what weapon you're using or what you're attacking (though it doesn't stack with other rerolls). Wounding on a 2+? You've gone from 5/6 to 5/6 + 1/6 * 5/6. Hitting on a 5+? You've gone from 2/6 to 2/6 + 1/6 * 2/6. In both cases, you've added 1/6 of whatever you had before.

 

But the real value of the wolf standard is that it allows you to reroll armour saves. For armour saves, it's a Big Deal.

 

Let's take the case of the lowly grey hunter as a starting point. Leaving aside AP3 and AP2 for now, you're normally saving 2/3 of the time. With the wolf standard, you're saving 2/3 + 1/6 * 2/3 of the time. Hmm. This looks exactly the same as the case for shooting right? Nope, there are actually three very important differences.

 

Firstly, how many saves you make isn't quite what's important. What's key for survivability is how many attacks you will withstand before falling. Where a standard grey hunter will save 6/9 of the time, that same grey hunter will save 7/9 of the time while under the effects of a wolf standard. To put this in perspective, it will take an average of 30 AP4 wounds to fell 10 grey hunters. It will take 45 AP4 wounds to drop those same 10 grey hunters, while they are under the effect of a wolf standard. The grey hunters take 2/3 as many wounds, survive 3/2 as long, and all up, the effect is comparable to adding a 5+ Feel No Pain save. Nice.

 

The second important point is that the increase in survivability is larger, the more survivable the unit was to begin with. If you receive no save, it does nothing - grey hunters receive no survivability benefit against AP 2 and 3 because there is no save granted, and nothing to reroll. On the other hand, a 2+ save increases survivability against AP3+ by a factor of 6! Let's elaborate on this. While the standard is up, a TDA WGPL will survive as long vs. AP 4+ as 36/4.5 = 8 grey hunters. The pack leader can absorb 36 times the AP3 wounds as a grey hunter. Throw in a storm shield and you're looking at a 48 point model with -while the standard is activated- the survivability of 4.5 grey hunters. Also pretty good!

 

The third piece of the puzzle regards wound allocation during assault. During overwatch, wounds are allocated as per normal shooting rules - that is, at the closest target first. But you have quite a bit of control over this, if you're the one charging! During the fight phase, if your unit has multiple models in base to base contact, you get to choose which of those models is struck by the enemy unit's attack. Once again, if you charged, you've got a fair bit of control over this too.

 

So what does this suggest? It's making me wonder whether it's possible to build a pretty scary assault unit out of grey hunters. Something like the following:

 

5 grey hunters

melta gun (assault is better than rapid fire if you're planning on charging)

wolf standard

mark of the wulfen

power axe

1 wolf guard pack leader

TDA

storm shield + power fist

-178 points (plus transport option)

 

The wolf guard in this unit would be pretty epic during that first round assault. Being challenged by this model would be pretty scary and might even lead some characters to decline (if they lack AP2, they stand pretty much no chance of winning, and the power fist attacks are a serious threat).

 

I'm not 100% sure what the best delivery option would be. Most transports are out, because they lack assault ramps. Land raiders are an interesting, but pricey option (you could only afford 3, 4 tops!) Drop ships are cheap and quick (you could easily fit 6 in an 1850 pt army, with room to round out the squads with more ablative wounds) but they lack assault ramps. Therefore you will be subject to a round of shooting before you get the chance to charge, and your opponent might charge you - you'll be faced with the hard decision whether to pop your standard prior to their assault phase, but at least you'll usually have an idea which squad they're going to charge, if any, based on who they shot at.

 

It might also be worthwhile saturating these units with relatively cheap character models, ideally with 2+/3++.

 

Anyway, that's all I've got so far. Anybody else have any ideas about making this idea really work?

[skeletoro]

Here's a quick hashing out of a list that tries to make the most out of its 6 wolf standards. It is built around 6 drop pods and the drop pod assault rule.

 

HQ

3 Rune priests (Runic Armour; TDA; TDA + melta bombs) 365

 

Elites

Wolf guard pack 478

5x storm shield + power fist

1x Arjac

(all are subbed out as pack leaders)

 

Troops 1020

6 Grey hunter packs

6 models each

Wolf standard

melta gun

mark of the wulfen

power axe

drop pod

 

1863 points... so might have to lose a single grey hunter model. Also, it might be worth it to drop out Arjac or a rune priest (or just drop to 5 units) in favour of a long fangs squad.

[Anaraion]

Elites

Wolf guard pack 478

5x storm shield + power fist

1x Arjac

(all are subbed out as pack leaders)

 

These WG are in TDA correct? Or am I missing something?

[skeletoro]

Elites

Wolf guard pack 478

5x storm shield + power fist

1x Arjac

(all are subbed out as pack leaders)

 

These WG are in TDA correct? Or am I missing something?

 

Oh, sorry, yeah they are. Forgot to write that (but it's included in the points cost)

[Grey Mage]

Its also a quarter of a fairly well sized army invested in pack leaders that force you to Drop Pod or Footslog. Youve cut back two members out of what you could take on those DPing units- but trying to emphasize their survivability. I suppose that lets you put those Rune Priests in where you like?

 

Personally I think the list lacks to much in long range support. While this idea has merit, on the scale youre talking about I think the tradeoff is to much. Maybe for a boarding action, or a cool cityfight list this would be excellent though- but on the average open field these squads will have a hard time killing enough off the hordes to make the plays Id want them to, at range. Theyd also struggle with antitank- and that outside the possible powers of the rune priests youve got nothing to dent armor thats more than 12" away. Gods forbid you run into a competent eldar or necron player with this list.

 

Cut two of those packs down, drop one of the priests maybe and really round out this force so it can play in all aspects of the game and I think youve really got something here. Yeah, the WT is a great tool- but you cant base your whole strategy on one turn of CC that might never happen.

[skeletoro]

Yeah, I think you're pretty much on the button with your criticisms (and you echo some of the thoughts I'd had). Do keep in mind that the list in my second post is just an exercise in seeing how far something like this can be pushed.

 

Replying to some specific points:

 

Its also a quarter of a fairly well sized army invested in pack leaders

I don't think this is a problem at all. In fact, it's kind of the point of the list. Note that these models are spread across squads, so that each has its own personal wolf standard and has its effectiveness maximized. When you take this into account, they're actually quite points efficient.

 

that force you to Drop Pod or Footslog.

Well, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with those two options. But, that said, there are some issues. In a perfect world, I'd like a 100pt transport with an assault ramp that can accomodate 6 models :D Unfortunately, none of the available options come close. The smaller transports don't allows termies and/or don't have assault ramps, and the only transports that allows termies AND have assault ramps are quite pricey (The cheapest I can see is an unupgraded storm eagle, though this has to come on from reserves, meaning at earliest, a round 3 assault). If we could combat squad and put 2 units along with 2 WGPL into a transport, it would be great, but we can't. So there's a definite issue here, and I was kinda hoping that we could collectively brainstorm workarounds.

 

Clearly, footslogging and drop podding has problems associated with it. In both cases, the unit will suffer casualties (potentially get wiped out if focus fired) before even being able to charge.

 

Youve cut back two members out of what you could take on those DPing units- but trying to emphasize their survivability. I suppose that lets you put those Rune Priests in where you like?

Yeah, and I kinda ran out of points. Keep in mind though, that survivability and number of units aren't necessarily the same thing. The whole point of the list above is that each of those units is *extremely* survivable for one assault per game. While the wolf standard is up, that one WGPL resists AP3+ as well as *six* normal TDA models, and AP2 as well as three normal TDA models.

 

So yes, for that one assault, this unit would be crazily durable.

 

There's a choice here, it seems. Fill out a squad to maximise the number of grey hunters who are shielded by the 2+/3++ model, and in turn to provide an ablative wound against shooting casualties, or else go minimalist (5 grey hunters, standard, plus WGPL with SS+PF = 133 pts) in order to maximise the number of wolf guard. At the 2000 point level, where 6 more troops choices open up, I have to wonder whether the best option might be to simply foot slog 10 cheapish 133 point units (maybe 143 so as to give each unit a plasma gun). You could probably fit ~10 such units, plus 2 or 3 units of long fangs with CML WGPL, into a 2000 point list. Once again, this is just a thought experiment and would need tweaking.

 

Personally I think the list lacks to much in long range support. While this idea has merit, on the scale youre talking about I think the tradeoff is to much.

I think you're right. Keep in mind that the list above was just a first foray into how we should make the best use of this mechanical peculiarity. The potential for synergy here is utterly massive. Grey hunters with WGPL are already very good. It's just a matter of finding a good balance, where we're not sacrificing too much to benefit from it.

 

you cant base your whole strategy on one turn of CC that might never happen.

I think this is important, but there are several considerations here. Yes, it is risky drop podding units that are specialists in charging the enemy. You open yourself up to being charged or shot to pieces. This is a big deal, because having the first shot really, really matters. Each time you lose a model, you've lost damage potential. A huge part of the reason why once-off things like combi-weapons, wolf standards, etc are good is that the benefit is relatively front-loaded. This is why I like WGTDA units with Cplas + axe in a Land Raider - they're quite hard to pop on turn 1, and will cause a lot of hurt on turn 2 (each 38 point terminator will kill 15/13ths of a marine, or 10/13ths of a terminator or 5/13ths of a TH+SS model, just from their plasma fire, and that's before even charging into melee!). Wolf standards are also a front loaded piece of wargear, and in a way, it's sort of a shame whenever a grey hunter dies before that wolf standard has been popped!

 

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that this kind of unit probably does need an assault ramp transport to make the most of what it can do. Which means two things:

1) You're putting many points into a land raider. Land raiders can be good, but aren't always worth the points. I think often it's best to go pure AV13+ mech, or else leave your Land Raiders back at the armoury. Otherwise, you're just making your opponent feel really good about the fact that they included 2 lascannons and 3 melta guns in their force! If you had 3 Land Raiders, a contemptor dread, and 2 vindicators, on the other hand, they may feel a bit unprepared.

2) You should put your melee ICs in this unit. There are many reasons for this:

a) There's room in a LRC.

B) You're getting into death star territory, but taking grey hunters rather than assault WGTDA means you're not investing TOO many points, and hopefully, won't be causing too much overkill. A full complement of TDAWG AND a kitted out wolf lord may have issues finding opponents worthy enough to justify the price tag.

c) The wolf standard buffs the IC - if they have a 2+/3++ already, you're essentially giving them Feel no Pain against AP1-2, and making them essentially invulnerable against anything else (except mass krak missiles. They'd die after about 36 of those, without SotBear. That's pretty scary, right? =D)

d) Your IC can happily delegate duels to the WGPL, who actually stands a fairly good chance of winning against middle of the road ICs, and proceed to smash mook face. Hell, you could even consider giving your IC Saga of the ExtraAttacksNextTurnPlz instead of SotBear. I'd consider it, at least!

e) Your IC's 2+ save means that even when the WGPL is in a challenge, you can still allocate wounds to your character. Normally this is a risky proposition, but is will worth it when you've upgraded from a 2+ save, to a 3+ save on 2d6.

 

In fact, after thinking about this a bit, I'm starting to wonder whether one of the best uses of this combo is, ironically, as Grimnar's retinue in a loganwing army. You have to buy him anyway, he gets to smash face instead of getting stuck in duels, and he can give your grey hunters relentless on the turn they charge. And you save a few points to spend elsewhere. I'm not actually kidding at all, though it seems kinda sacreligious :)

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

I know that TH/SS TDA WG are horribly priced but I always take one in my army to accompany a drop podding GH unit w/ Rune Priest. Since the Rune Priest is usually my warlord I want to give him the best possible chance to survive combat and the TDA WG rarely fails in that department. The Wolf Standard when combined with the TH/SS TDA WG is incredible.

 

Great posts all around. :D

[Grey Mage]

Well a couple of work-arounds I can think off offhand are thus:

 

Thunderhawks: If youre playing apocalypse then a handful of these units deploying out would be great to sweeping an end-game objective. Given the transport capacity you could get 4 of them in there, combined with the firepower of the 'hawk itself. The point investment is significant, but so is the gain, and in apocalypse size games we wont notice as much eh?

 

On the same note, theres always stealing a stormlord from the IG....

 

Horus Heresy: While they arent in betrayal, the Age of the Emperor ruleset includes 12 man open-topped rhinos. I dont recall if they allow TDA or not though... worth looking into if you can get people interested though.

 

Distractions: Perhaps by dropping one of these squads for a pair of 15 strong fenrisian wolf packs would force your opponent to split their anti-infantry firepower a bit.

 

Powers: Using the Rune Priests for Stormcaller will help some, though wether it can be cast on the drop is a matter of some debate- I bypass that myself by giving him a bike and protecting him with swiftclaws... but now were really starting to shift the focus of the list.

 

Planetstrike: Dropping 210pts in DPs from the list would open up some long-range firepower for sure.

 

Cityfight: Narrow firing lanes and close quarter engagements maximize the units abilities.

 

Mixing these 'assault' squads with 'shooting' squads of max GHs with double specials might make for some interesting tactical considerations too. Depending on your opponent you drop whats needed, and it gives you the fire support youll need to get these guys where you want them- anchoring your assaults.

[sn33r]

sorry to jump threads what rule are. you talking about here?.

 

) Your IC's 2+ save means that even when the WGPL is in a challenge, you can still allocate wounds to your character. Normally this is a risky proposition, but is will worth it when you've upgraded from a 2+ save, to a 3+ save on 2d6.

[skeletoro]

Nice ideas Grey Mage... man, I'd love to have a thunderhawk some day. How does the transport capacity work?

 

sn33r, sorry, I was a little unclear. If you have the 58 point WGPL and an IC in the same unit, then you can choose to use the WGPL in any challenges, and then you still have an IC with a 2+ armour save up your sleeve, to allocate wounds to. If you JUST have the WGPL, then stepping out for a challenge means losing the opportunity to absorb wounds for your unit.

[Grey Mage]

Well as a superheavy vehicle a Thunderhawk can carry any unit it likes- including non-superheavy vehicles like Dreadnaughts. TDA counts as two slots, just like in a landraider or DP though.... Bikes, Jump Infantry etc can also be held, at different rates per model. It carries thirty models- so at 7 models a peice for the minimum GH+TDA squads we have two spots left over for ICs or perhaps a Lone Wolf.

 

Other superheavy transports also have this ability- theres an IG tank for example that carries 25 men, just enough for two full squads and a platoon command. The Stormlord I mentioned carries 40...

 

The problem with the Thunderhawk is alot of its points are tied up in its flyer style mobility and survivability- and if you turn it into a skimmer to disembark, that can quickly spell its doom. So its best to land it late in the game, wich means you have to be able to hit the ground with enough bodies to clear the area you need cleared or dont bother coming.

 

Though it did get an extra structure point in the new IA: Aeronautica book, wich should help immensely.

[skeletoro]

Well as a superheavy vehicle a Thunderhawk can carry any unit it likes- including non-superheavy vehicles like Dreadnaughts. TDA counts as two slots, just like in a landraider or DP though.... Bikes, Jump Infantry etc can also be held, at different rates per model. It carries thirty models- so at 7 models a peice for the minimum GH+TDA squads we have two spots left over for ICs or perhaps a Lone Wolf.

 

Other superheavy transports also have this ability- theres an IG tank for example that carries 25 men, just enough for two full squads and a platoon command. The Stormlord I mentioned carries 40...

 

The problem with the Thunderhawk is alot of its points are tied up in its flyer style mobility and survivability- and if you turn it into a skimmer to disembark, that can quickly spell its doom. So its best to land it late in the game, wich means you have to be able to hit the ground with enough bodies to clear the area you need cleared or dont bother coming.

 

Though it did get an extra structure point in the new IA: Aeronautica book, wich should help immensely.

 

And it has an assault ramp? Sweet!

 

None of these superheavy transports are legit in regular 40k eh? Well, anything is with the consent of your opponent, but generally it would be considered very unusual, correct?

[Anaraion]

My dream is to one day own a Thunderhawk from FW... :) !!

[Grey Mage]

None of these superheavy transports are legit in regular 40k eh? Well, anything is with the consent of your opponent, but generally it would be considered very unusual, correct?

Correct, Apocalypse and the rarely played Spearhead expansion, though in my opinion thats 'apocalypse light'.