Predator Annilator?

[Hymirl]

I'm looking enviously at the super fast predators, because everything is better when it's faster... Like broadband Internet and airplanes!

 

Does mobility and massive firepower make a good case for the full lascannon loadout?

 

Do you use predators? And what weapons do you fit them with?

[JamesI]

I don't think the cost is worth it. I go cheaper, autocannon with lascannon sponsons.

[DominicJ]

For predators, I would go baal.

The vindicator is orders of magnitude better as a HS tank.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I do the same as James, Auto/Las. Cheaper, just as potent.

 

Vindicators are sitting ducks against competent opponents.

[DominicJ]

Ours can move 12" and still shoot, how is that a sitting duck?

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

because moving doesn't affect how hard it is for him to hit you and you have to move into gauss or near to melta range to shoot the thing, same with the baal really.

[Sokhar]

Ours can move 12" and still shoot, how is that a sitting duck?

Because 80% of its surface area has the same armor value as a rhino?

[DominicJ]

Just like a predator....

[Sokhar]

Lot easier to manage those side arcs when you can hold your opponent at 48" range rather than 24" though. Predators tend to be backfield units, whereas by necessity the Vindicator has to be more of a midfielder (unless your opponent is aggressively pushing to your side of the table instead).

 

Edit: On an unrelated aside, I just read all your blog posts on the strength of that wonderful invented word "rubbisher." You're on the same page I was in 5th ed with the mech angels. Admittedly I joined in with the knee-jerk reaction that BA Mechanized is dead in 6th ed. Not sure if that wasn't true in our case, but it's something I've decided to go back and experiment with some of late. Plus the tanks are about the only things in my BA army that are fully painted, so it hurts putting them on the shelf and taking down more primer-Marines. Curious, I see you have a love of Vindicators. Is that based on having the actual models available, or do you prefer them even to Storm Ravens?

[DominicJ]

I have three vindies and two ravens.

 

I think ravens are nice, but over rated.

I think the demolisher cannon is the best weapon in the game, and the fast rhino is well up there as a platform to fire it from.

 

I have a plan for three baals and three vindicators.

Backed up by rhinos or jet pack assault troops.

 

I thought mech was dead, but then i tried popping tanks.

It takes a lot of firepower to pop a tank.

Sure, you can get lucky, but tanks are hard

[MrSocks]

Interesting. I have a question as I haven't played much of 6th edition yet (due to being busy attempting to teach my platoon to do something relatively useful for once). I also played mech angels in 5th (though slightly more armoured angels than mechanised), but I was wondering how you've changed your lists to compensate for changes in the latest edition?

[Sokhar]

Dominic: Interesting. What do you find overrated about Ravens? I've only been able to play with one so far (just finished building my 2nd, on the way to a third--nice to see my impulse buys after their release wasn't a total waste), but I've always had positive results from it. I like Vindicators better in 6th than I did in 5th. Much less frequent stun-locking, boost to AP 2 weapons, and the template getting full effect are all nice things. The reduction of general cover from 4+ to 5+ is also a plus, but the threshold for cover dropping kinda offsets this in many cases.

 

I guess I just perceive vehicle durability differently than you. Perhaps because I've spent more time playing my Crons in 6th than BA thus far. If you have the right tools for the job, tanks aren't really difficult to kill. Hull points removed that burden of needing melta to reliably eliminate vehicles, offset by less ability to suppress tanks in the meantime. Just means that humble weapons like the autocannon became more reliable vehicle killers, and Necrons went from having a hard time actually destroying (as opposed to stunlocking) vehicles, to arguably the codex with the best anti-tank options. I went undefeated at a tournament a couple weeks ago in large part because in my final game I was able to kill two dreadnoughts and four individual Leman Russes (Forgeworld, and thus Armored Companies, were allowed) in a single round, leaving my opponent one hullpoint away from being tabled before his airborne portion of his force could even arrive. No way that was possible with the tools available in 5th. Whereas in 5th the game rules strongly catered to mechanized approaches and you basically had no choice in the matter if you wanted to be competitive, I think right now mech-centric is sort of a darkhorse counter to the meta where everyone has decided to go plasma and infantry-heavy. Not sure how that'll continue to bear out, but I think you may have a valid point about having either battle tanks or transports, and not trying to have a vehicle do both. Not sure, I'll have to play my Mech BA some more.

 

MrSocks: Biggest changes for me were the death of mechanized assault-oriented units. I used to always include a priest in my mech lists, and sergeants frequently got a power sword for a little added punch. I doubt I'd bother with either anymore. The rules for assaulting after being in a vehicle sometime in the last three weeks (or so it feels) are so draconian that you pretty much can't do it. Now I think I'd only bother with Mephiston as an assault element. Mech BA (unless you're using a predator wall to shield jumpers) is pretty much exclusively a shooting army now, whereas last edition I ran it as a shooting-centric army that could still manage to out-assault most other shooting armies. The melee punch is largely diluted, though the speed advantage is still there, and probably even improved slightly. Flyers are the other big thing, as they are the largest meta change this edition. We have one of the 3 best flyers in the game without question, and I think its definitely worth considering at least 1 Raven in any BA list.

[Brom MKIV]

I have three vindies and two ravens.

 

I think ravens are nice, but over rated.

I think the demolisher cannon is the best weapon in the game, and the fast rhino is well up there as a platform to fire it from.

 

I have a plan for three baals and three vindicators.

Backed up by rhinos or jet pack assault troops.

 

I thought mech was dead, but then i tried popping tanks.

It takes a lot of firepower to pop a tank.

Sure, you can get lucky, but tanks are hard

This sums up my experiences nicely, and crons dont really count when discussing mech durability in 6th :).

[MrSocks]

MrSocks: Biggest changes for me were the death of mechanized assault-oriented units. I used to always include a priest in my mech lists, and sergeants frequently got a power sword for a little added punch. I doubt I'd bother with either anymore. The rules for assaulting after being in a vehicle sometime in the last three weeks (or so it feels) are so draconian that you pretty much can't do it. Now I think I'd only bother with Mephiston as an assault element. Mech BA (unless you're using a predator wall to shield jumpers) is pretty much exclusively a shooting army now, whereas last edition I ran it as a shooting-centric army that could still manage to out-assault most other shooting armies. The melee punch is largely diluted, though the speed advantage is still there, and probably even improved slightly. Flyers are the other big thing, as they are the largest meta change this edition. We have one of the 3 best flyers in the game without question, and I think its definitely worth considering at least 1 Raven in any BA list.

 

Yes I am pretty upset about the way assaulting from vehicles works now, it seems stupidly ponderous for marines (and I think it was in part to force people to buy new none-mech lists in 6th so that they'd purchase new models but also to escape the old SW cheese lists). It also gives an unnecessary buff to open topped vehicles given this.

 

I used to run a shooty shooty mech list anyway, but I've converted to 2 units of razorback borne assault marines because I just love the look of none-JP assault marines. My list is still strong shooty at mid to low range and does avoid over-reliance on mech based assault units.

 

I've included 1 Raven in my army at the moment, along with an aegis to deal help with any flyer spam I encounter (and who can sniff at two twin autocannons for busting open enemy transports).

 

 

Thank you for the advice though, I've fully accepted my list isn't (and never will be) a "Competitive" List, hell I've got an assault marine sergeant that exchanged both his weapons with 2 lightning claws at a cost of +30pts because I love the new Mark IV lightning claws...... but I've tried to make the rest of the list decent for dealing with all comers and a fun one to play with.

[knife&fork]

I have three vindies and two ravens.

 

I think ravens are nice, but over rated.

I think the demolisher cannon is the best weapon in the game, and the fast rhino is well up there as a platform to fire it from.

 

I have a plan for three baals and three vindicators.

Backed up by rhinos or jet pack assault troops.

 

I thought mech was dead, but then i tried popping tanks.

It takes a lot of firepower to pop a tank.

Sure, you can get lucky, but tanks are hard

 

I thought this was poem at first and tried to make it rhyme :)

 

The short range of the vindi compared to the pread means the you pretty much have to attack a flank with them in order to survive. It's easier to keep the AV13 front when you are able to distance yourself and fire from just about every place on the table.

 

 

Going back to the annihilator I think we pay too much fast tax on it. The regular AC-LC pred can move 12" and fire two lascannons at full BS and then snapshot the AC as a bonus. With the annihilator it feels like you are forced into a stationary role, otherwise the extra firepower is kinda wasted.

[appiah4]

Back to the Annihilator, I think the TL Lascannon turret has become a lot more useful with the new penetration table. move 12" and shoot TL S9 AP2 is very decent. I'm pondering buying a Predator kit and magnetizing it. I would be sure to try the TL Lascannon only loadout with a Hunter Killer on top for fast tank busting.

 

The Tri-las for me is a waste, and I really hate the popular loadout.

[Ushtarador]

I would rather run a naked predator than just giving him the TL-LC though. Spending 135 points on a single lascannon is a huge waste of points, you can get a whole devastator squad for that.

Tri-las is too expensive in too fragile a hull, whereas a single autocannon-pred is not really a threat to anything and can safely be ignored until you find the time to deal with it. The standard loadout is strong because it can deal a lot of damage on 48'' range without being overly expensive, so it is hard for your enemy to take it out cost-efficiently.

[knife&fork]

I would be sure to try the TL Lascannon only loadout with a Hunter Killer on top for fast tank busting.

 

The Tri-las for me is a waste, and I really hate the popular loadout.

 

Why? Having two BS4 shots is superior in every way.

 

I would rather run a naked predator than just giving him the TL-LC though. Spending 135 points on a single lascannon is a huge waste of points, you can get a whole devastator squad for that.

Tri-las is too expensive in too fragile a hull, whereas a single autocannon-pred is not really a threat to anything and can safely be ignored until you find the time to deal with it. The standard loadout is strong because it can deal a lot of damage on 48'' range without being overly expensive, so it is hard for your enemy to take it out cost-efficiently.

 

Are you talking about the dakka pred with heavy bolters and autocannons?

[MrSocks]

Got to admit I ran tri-las in 5th with a lot of success, especially against guard. The number of times I missed with 2 of the 3 lascannons is pretty staggering! (or killed something purely because of the twin-linked). Sometimes if it is worth killing, it is worth overkilling!

 

However I ran it because I had one, I don't use it anymore as I've found it is far too much of a target for people to ignore.

[Hymirl]

Sad face, I have two of the forgeworld mkIV predators sitting about and was hoping to find a way to use them.

I guess I could convert them to autocannon turrets...

 

I also like the idea of blood angel devestators, given they're fairly priced.

[Ushtarador]

Are you talking about the dakka pred with heavy bolters and autocannons?

 

Forgot about this version, but I find baal predators better than normal ones for this role :unsure:

[DominicJ]

If I was going the pred route, I would try just one upgrade, so either just the sponsons, or just the TLLC.

 

But I have little experience of them.

[appiah4]

I would be sure to try the TL Lascannon only loadout with a Hunter Killer on top for fast tank busting.

 

The Tri-las for me is a waste, and I really hate the popular loadout.

 

Why? Having two BS4 shots is superior in every way.

 

Yes, you get more hits out of 2 BS4 shots than one TL BS4 shot, but that is only if you get to fire both. I hear this a lot, but you know what? The problem with sponsons is that you really can't get good line of fires with them. They can be blocked by terrain, infantry, you name it. Moreover, getting the target into the same arc of fire of both sponsons usually means exposing side armor to something else. The TLLC turret is harder to block, and safer to use at full capacity. The only thing sponsons have going for them is weapon destroyed results, I'll give you that. But if you're willing to take a vindicator, baal or dakka pred, then this is no more of an issue here than it is for these tanks. If you really mind this problem, you can always just take the HB sponsons. 6 S5 shots will eventually glance AV11 at some point anyway, also adds flexibility if you want to fire on infantry.

 

TLLC + HB sponsons for me then. I'll try this out. Sometime. Once my Baal predator is complete.. and I buy a new kit.. and assemble.. and paint.. you know..

[j-smuv]

In defense of my love for the Annihilator:

 

In a mech list, it fulfills a roll similar to a vindicator. It's a threat your opponent can't ignore. It's more points, but it has the beforementioned advantage of a situationally improved front armor arc. In addition, it draws an advantage by absorbing high strength, long range firepower or short range deepstriking anti-tank from your enemy's arsenal. Does it gain back it's points in what it kills? Maybe not. . . But if you devide the points of the units dedicated to take it out by the number of turns they have to fire at it, and add it to the points it kills, I think you'll find it "earns it's points back" rather regularly (tau and necrons notwithstanding).

 

Even with these advantages, it is still not the "best" option in the heavy slot. Esspecially if your viewing it in isolation from the list in which it is run. I don't know about you guys, but I optimize the rest of my list, so I can be frivolous with some points in other areas of the list. So it's not optimised. .. So what. . . As long as your whole list is thought through, you can afford to bring the more impractical toys. Some times, for me, that toy is an Annihilator.

[Sokhar]

Forgot about this version, but I find baal predators better than normal ones for this role :rolleyes:

 

Objectively I'd say that the twin assault cannon is better than the autocannon for anti-infantry purposes. The upside to the autocannon is that that variant costs 45 points less. Downside is that its Heavy Support instead of Fast Attack. For a low points game I could be persuaded to the autocannon pred, or if I wasn't using the heavy support slots otherwise (or had several to spare, like in double FoC).