Tzeentch Psychic Powers

[Kol Saresk]

But I thought the spell forced you to re-roll every Dark Apotheosis result? Just like Gifts of mutation forces you to re-roll every Spawndom and DA result.

[Brother Ambroz]

But I thought the spell forced you to re-roll every Dark Apotheosis result? Just like Gifts of mutation forces you to re-roll every Spawndom and DA result.

 

Pretty sure this is correct. Whenever you roll a prince result with the Boon spell you have to reroll it and cannot become a prince from that power.

[*Furyou Miko]

It just says "must be rerolled".

 

Core rulebook says, "You only ever make a reroll once", or "You can never reroll a reroll", or something like that.

[Kol Saresk]

But doesn't the rulebook also say that in situations of confusion or conflict, the Codex trumps the rulebook? So wouldn't that mean since the Codex says "re-rolling the Dark Apotheosis result" without specifying a number or limitation on the re-rolls that we must re-roll every Dark Apotheosis result? I'm not trying to be a pain or anything, I actually do want to understand it.

[*Furyou Miko]

The way I see it, it says "Reroll x results", meaning that it's just referring back to the rulebook rules for re-rolls.

 

If it said, "You can never achieve Apotheosis with this spell and must reroll all DA results" then it would be different.

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm, okay.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I've found firestorm is an okay power, not great, but better proberbly better for an aspiring sorcerer due to it's range and the amount of damage it can do, of couse against marines I always seem to roll a one or a two for the strength, but against non marines it is fun.

I'm really wishing Aspiring sorcerers had had a special rule that allowed them to pick from any of the rulebook lores instead Tzeentch's lore of fail.

And I agree with the points about the lore of tzeentch changes us froma proper psychic squad, to just a worse melta gun or unpredictable havok launcher.

[Zeratil]

On the re-roll question I would agree with Furyou:

 

he must immediately make a roll on the Chaos Boon table (re-rolling the Dark Apotheosis result) as described under the Champion of Chaos rule on page xx

 

My read of that is that if you re-roll and get Dark Apotheosis it sticks because of the case used - as Furyou said, 'the' should read 'any'. Additionally Gift of Mutation says:

 

Do not apply any Spawnhood or Dark Apotheosis results; roll again on the table instead.

 

This second wording specifically trumps the re-roll rule in the BGB, the wording in Boon does not. So getting Dark Apotheosis with Boon is not impossible, just extremely unlikely.

 

------------

 

I have to disagree Ridcully - Firestorm is awful, it's a rubbish havok launcher - given the low cost of Havok Launchers I'd much rather take them. The most important power in a psychic discipline is it's primaris, look at the BGB discipline, the best is divination by a long way. An important part of that is that the primaris power is the best of any in the book, so when you inevitably get a result not useful to that unit/army you can pick a power that is always useful to any army. I don't even think Firestorm is that good against hordes, a small blast isn't going to get you very far, especially with such a variable strength and no AP. If I could re-write it I'd make it S D3+2/3, AP- Large Blast, Ignores Cover, Inferno (maybe). Or you could just use Balefire Drakes, which are just better.

 

In fairness, I think Doombolt is probably better than a meltagun in 6th because it's an 18" beam. It's still not stellar though.

 

 

Edit: - Quite right Excessus, changed.

[Excessus]

Additionally Gift of Mutation says:

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

It's not that bad, I take havoks on my Rhinos, and I find that it's better the "Tzeentchian roulette" and it does help the Tsons against hoardes.

[Excessus]

I can never find points for rhinos in my lists, there are too much stuff I want to fit in already... :)

[Ardune]

I can never find points for rhinos in my lists, there are too much stuff I want to fit in already... :lol:

Rhinos are great if for nothing other than being mobile cover and closing fire lanes.

[Kol Saresk]

What you do is litter "immobilized" Rhinos throughout the table and convince your opponent that they can be used as bunkers with pintle weapons and that if you stay close enough, you can "capture" them in the same way as an objective as Havocs and such too. Maybe get him to throw in some Whirlwinds, Razorbacks and other artillery units if you guys have them. Make it more fun and interesting.

[Ardune]

But all of this "Doombolt is good, Firestorm is bad" talk is beside the point. With only having access to wargear-equivalent powers (Tzeentch discipline), the 1k Sons are bland and don't have the unpredictable psyker flavor.

 

The other disciplines (Biomancy, Pyromancy, and Telepathy) are all sprinkled with non-wargear equivalent powers and I'm disappointed that our psykers don't have those type of options. In the time between the 6th edition and Chaos dex release, I was running with Telepathy discipline asp sorc's and Psychic Scream was a lot of fun along with the other spells. Now, I find that my sorc's are somehow less than they were with the Gav-dex, which is shocking.

 

At this point, I would gladly pay more points for some flavor with my 1k Sons. If they had a +25pt option to add a single mastery level to my asp sorc's then I would gladly jump at it. I like coming at my opponents from unexpected angles where things like their LD stat is more important than their armor save. It's not super powerful but actually holds to the tenet that the best defense against an army of psykers is not thicker armor.

[Lieutenant Steel]

Also, considering a key aspect of Thousand Sons is their focus on Psykers and psychic powers I find it really irritating that they don't have the option to choose the spell they want from the Tzeentch list (Which would allow you to avoid Boon unless you really wanted it, and pick the most useful power for each battle) and that they have no way to cast spells as/ more reliably than a non Tzeentch Sorceror who pays for a spell familiar :/

 

Also even if they removed the S4 AP- hit from Boon, I wouldn't be inclined to use it unless they had a complete overhaul of the Boon table; it's entirely too random for my liking and really really should have had smaller, dedicated tables for each of the Chaos Gods + 1 for Undivided/ Unmarked choices, but that's another conversation for another thread...

 

Just the fact that you can get so many results which are not useful (like getting extra Ballistic skill for a character that's taken a Powerfist/ L.Claw and doesn't have a ranged weapon, being only one example) just means that I find it painful to use.

[Dammeron]

It would've been so easy to implement, too:

 

- Sorcerers with the Mark of Tzeentch count as being one mastery level higher than stated for the purposes of spell selection.

- Sorcerer's Cabal: Special rule for the Sorcerer H.Q. entry: Sorcerers with the Mark of Tzeentch may be organised into Cabals. A Cabal consists of up to three Sorcerers, purchased as a single HQ entry, each of which functions as an independent character. One of those sorcerers may be upgraded to a Sorcerer Lord for blah blah points. A Sorcerer Lord has +1 BS and benefits from the Daemonic Pacts special rule (see below):

 

Daemonic Pacts

 

 

Some of the more brazen practitioners of the forbidden arts attempt to yoke daemons to their service or make active bargains with them, in the hope of fuelling their powers. A Chaos Sorcerer may declare the use of a Daemonic Pact before he uses any psychic power. He may add or subtract 1 from any dice roll in the subsequent psychic test. If he fails, he will immediately suffer a Perils of the Warp attack. Or some such.

 

 

The Lore of Tzeentch:

 

Primaris Power: Changer of Ways: The Sorcerers of Tzeentch are adept at manipulating the strands of fate and chance to warp events around them. This power is a blessing that may be cast on any friendly unit (including one which includes the sorcerer himself) within 6 inches at the beginning of the owning player's turn. All models within that unit may make a single re-roll of any long range to hit rolls made that turn.

 

 

1-2: Boon of Mutation: Blessing: The sorcerer uses his powers to pour pure, mutating Warp energy into nearby vessels, making their flesh clay before the insane inspirations of The Lord of Change. This power may target any friendly UNIT within 3 inches of the caster. All models within that unit take a strength 4 hit at AP -. roll a single dice on the Chaos Boon table (re-rolling Dark Apotheosis) and apply the result to EVERY model in that unit (see how a simple expansion of the power makes it loads more fun to use and infinitely more viable? Imagine casting it on a unit of cultists and getting a heap of Spawn as a result? Amazing fun).

 

3-4: Breath of Chaos: As per C:CSM

 

5-6: Holocaust of Change (Warp Charge: 2): In extremis, the sorcerers of Tzeentch are known to unleash powers that no sane or sanctioned psyker would ever conceive of. Skies boil, raining acidic blood; the ground heaves and erupts with molten fire; the very air itself combusts, seething with daemonic manifestations of pure, magical chaos. Holocaust is a Witch fire power with the following profile:

 

Range: 18 inches. Strength: 9 AP: 3 Type: Heavy 1, Large Blast unbound (see below):

 

Unbound: Place the large template and roll the scatter dice as normal. Once the final place of the template has been established and all hits/wounds calculated, roll a D6. The template will now move randomly that many times 2D6 inches. Calculate hits and wounds as per usual at any point where the template stops. If the caster of the Holocaust fails their psychic test for any reason, after all Perils of the Warp attacks have been resolved, place the template centred directly OVER THE CASTER and follow the above process.

 

 

Some of these have been tested (they are from the home brewed codex I started writing in the wake of the last Chaos Codex) some are not. The Holocaust of Change power in particular is enormous fun, especially when it backfires. Yes, it's a little OTT and crazy, but that's the point of it; if any chaos power warrants enormous, unpredictable psychic powers, it's Tzeentch, and he just doesn't have them in the current codex.

 

 

Whilst we're about it:

 

The Mark of Tzeentch: No longer has anything to do with Invulnerable Saves. Instead, grants the same benefit as it does to Daemons of Tzeentch as detailed in C:CSM.

 

Thousand Sons: No longer have invulnerable saves (no good reason for them to anyway). Instead, they benefit from The Mark of Tzeentch as detailed above and have 2 wounds a piece. Also, whilst a unit of Thousand Sons contains any sorcerer with The Mark of Tzeentch, they are relentless instead of Slow and Purposeful.

 

Icon of Flame replaced by Icon of Fate: The owning player of a unit with this icon may force a re-roll of any successful charges against the unit.

 

 

There.

[Excessus]

I do agree that the 2W sons of old were a much better way to show their resilience compared to now. I don't really see why they removed it... ;)

[*Furyou Miko]

I'll read those suggestions later, but for now I'm just going to say this:

 

We don't get the ability to choose our power from the Tzeentch list because that would have meant putting more work into the Tzeentch list so that the choice wasn't obvious.

 

Also, is there actually anything stopping us casting Boon of Mutation on enemy characters?

[Lieutenant Steel]

Dammeron, I agree with the extra Mastery level for the Mark of Tzeentch, but most of the other changes would have been highly unnecessary and would have resulted in even more pages of rules and reference tables - especially replacing Doombolt (one of the two best powers) with a homebrew spell that is incredibly random in it's effect - which is a step in the wrong direction I would argue; the game should be about playing and not about adding more rules to an already overly complicated core set, as this detracts from playing time, adds more fact checking mid-game and isn't in a player (or designers) best interest.

[carnosaur93]

Dammeron, I agree with the extra Mastery level for the Mark of Tzeentch, but most of the other changes would have been highly unnecessary and would have resulted in even more pages of rules and reference tables - especially replacing Doombolt (one of the two best powers) with a homebrew spell that is incredibly random in it's effect - which is a step in the wrong direction I would argue; the game should be about playing and not about adding more rules to an already overly complicated core set, as this detracts from playing time, adds more fact checking mid-game and isn't in a player (or designers) best interest.

 

i very much agree with this... my veiw on the matter is that MoT should just add a mastery level on characters (potentially including unit champs and non-psykers, giving them a single power and mastery level), and the lore of tzeentch needs either heavy rework, or to be thrown away alltogether in place of the ones from the core rulebook

 

either way, i feel that they really messed tzeentch up bad, its the most bland, boring, and dull options in the codex, so much that it actually made me loose all interestest in the pure-tzeentch army i started building while the 4/5th dex was still in effect... i actually feel abit cheated for having started an army pretty much from scratch, only to have it wrecked 2 months later when it neared completion

[Ardune]

Well, here's to hoping they finally fix Tzeentch with the next iteration. It's sad that we have to wait another 4 or 5 years for the inevitable letdown.

 

On that note, I just got through reading "Battle of the Fang" and have come to the conclusion that the 1k Sons are properly portrayed in the rules with regards to the fluff. It appears that GW regards us as moustache twirling villains who always lose and are under the mistaken impression that the key to victory is more goons!

[Excessus]

The current codex is infinitely less "moustache twirling" than the last codex. This codex actually has interesting fluff in it! ^_^

 

 

...besides, MoN and Plague Marines has always been the best units(well, since 2nd ed at least, I didn't play before that so i don't know) so I doubt you will get something better even if you wait. TS are historically inferior ruleswise...but sooo much cooler!!!

[The Yncarne]

Yes, historically the Khorne and Nurgle followers have had it best for quite a while. Although some of those Khorne models from the early 90s are the reason I prefer the Thousand Sons to this day.

 

It seems to me allied daemons is the way to go for now if you want a well themed Thousand Sons or Tzeentch list.

[*Furyou Miko]

And, according to Ahriman: Exile, Warp Talons are used by renegade Thousand Sons, at least... and Magnusites just play with daemons anyway.

[vonny]

Also, considering a key aspect of Thousand Sons is their focus on Psykers and psychic powers I find it really irritating that they don't have the option to choose the spell they want from the Tzeentch list (Which would allow you to avoid Boon unless you really wanted it, and pick the most useful power for each battle) and that they have no way to cast spells as/ more reliably than a non Tzeentch Sorceror who pays for a spell familiar :/

 

Why the spell familiar? Tzeentch Sorcerors don't get re-rolls anymore, do they?