Did the Lion really wait to see who won!

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

He cut out one of Leman Russ's hearts because he felt Russ was responsible for making him miss the battle for Terra.

 

So... what do you think? :tu:

He realized what he had done immediately afterwards and stood by his bedside until he recovered too. Later the two and Dorn swore an oath of brotherhood before going their separate ways.

 

I so hope this piece of old fluff gets into a HH book....

 

My point wasn't who was right or wrong in the matter.

Wasn't accusing you of doing such. Just musing over a funny development.

[Brother Amarel]

Never forget that history is written by the victors.

 

If the Dark Angels went traitor then, while tied up with their defeating their Loyalist brethren, the Emperor won and they did a quick reversal they're hardly going to admit to it, are they? They're the victors and they can claim whatever they want, in this instance that it was the 'home guard' that went traitor. This home guard who were the original terra troops ('traditionally' the ones that remained loyal in the other Legions that went traitor) and had no contact with traitors from the other Legions. And lets not forget that the DA are very friendly with mysterious Xenos, which is a bit naughty in itself.

 

There's a strong case for any Devil's advocate, in my opinion.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Never forget that history is written by the victors.

 

If the Dark Angels went traitor then, while tied up with their defeating their Loyalist brethren, the Emperor won and they did a quick reversal they're hardly going to admit to it, are they? They're the victors and they can claim whatever they want, in this instance that it was the 'home guard' that went traitor. This home guard who were the original terra troops ('traditionally' the ones that remained loyal in the other Legions that went traitor) and had no contact with traitors from the other Legions. And lets not forget that the DA are very friendly with mysterious Xenos, which is a bit naughty in itself.

 

There's a strong case for any Devil's advocate, in my opinion.

Just buy the Chaos 'Dex if you can't wait for the new one.

[Brother Amarel]

Never forget that history is written by the victors.

 

If the Dark Angels went traitor then, while tied up with their defeating their Loyalist brethren, the Emperor won and they did a quick reversal they're hardly going to admit to it, are they? They're the victors and they can claim whatever they want, in this instance that it was the 'home guard' that went traitor. This home guard who were the original terra troops ('traditionally' the ones that remained loyal in the other Legions that went traitor) and had no contact with traitors from the other Legions. And lets not forget that the DA are very friendly with mysterious Xenos, which is a bit naughty in itself.

 

There's a strong case for any Devil's advocate, in my opinion.

Just buy the Chaos 'Dex if you can't wait for the new one.

I already have the C:CSM. Although I'm not sure what point you're making?

[Cactus]

Never forget that history is written by the victors.

 

If the Dark Angels went traitor then, while tied up with their defeating their Loyalist brethren, the Emperor won and they did a quick reversal they're hardly going to admit to it, are they? They're the victors and they can claim whatever they want, in this instance that it was the 'home guard' that went traitor. This home guard who were the original terra troops ('traditionally' the ones that remained loyal in the other Legions that went traitor) and had no contact with traitors from the other Legions. And lets not forget that the DA are very friendly with mysterious Xenos, which is a bit naughty in itself.

 

There's a strong case for any Devil's advocate, in my opinion.

Have you read any of the Horus Heresy novels? There's a lot of evidence that contradicts your hypothesis. The Dark Angels on Caliban were not solely Terran recruits. The Lion did nothing to aid Horus and everything he could to oppose the rebellion. The Caliban revolt was not instigated by Horus so whether or not they had contact with other traitor legions is irrelevant.

[Brother Amarel]

Never forget that history is written by the victors.

 

If the Dark Angels went traitor then, while tied up with their defeating their Loyalist brethren, the Emperor won and they did a quick reversal they're hardly going to admit to it, are they? They're the victors and they can claim whatever they want, in this instance that it was the 'home guard' that went traitor. This home guard who were the original terra troops ('traditionally' the ones that remained loyal in the other Legions that went traitor) and had no contact with traitors from the other Legions. And lets not forget that the DA are very friendly with mysterious Xenos, which is a bit naughty in itself.

 

There's a strong case for any Devil's advocate, in my opinion.

Have you read any of the Horus Heresy novels? There's a lot of evidence that contradicts your hypothesis. The Dark Angels on Caliban were not solely Terran recruits. The Lion did nothing to aid Horus and everything he could to oppose the rebellion. The Caliban revolt was not instigated by Horus so whether or not they had contact with other traitor legions is irrelevant.

Astelan's statement was 'outed' as being false very quickly in this thread so we're already picking and choosing which bits we want to believe and which bits we don't by the sounds of it. What does helping Horus have to do with it? The point isn't that he actively sided with someone, but more than he acted passively whilst he waited for the outcome to become apparent. The importance of a lack of contact with Horus is that those on Caliban categorically were not on the side of Horus.

 

My point is not that I'm declaring a fact, it's that there are a lot of question marks which make the idea of the Lion being only ever on the side of the Emperor a little dubious. Even now the Dark Angels put their own agenda ahead of that of the Emperor wishes, which is essentially a continuation of their Primarch's attitude.

[Onisuzume]

My point wasn't who was right or wrong in the matter. The point is that Johnson was obviously very, very angry over missing the defense of Terra. Johnson rarely lost his temper and preferred stoicism over rash action. For something to move Johnson to killing one of his own brothers is quite significant. It pretty much invalidates the whole "DA are traitor who waited to see who won" argument.

Exactly, and my "successor chapter's" fluff builds on that, partially.

If the Dark Angels went traitor then, while tied up with their defeating their Loyalist brethren

That would imply that Leman Russ and the space puppies did the exact same thing.

Kinda hard for a traitor and loyalist to travel together to Terra otherwise, wouldn't it?

And lets not forget that the DA are very friendly with mysterious Xenos, which is a bit naughty in itself.

Which happens to be the only Xenos that they tolerate, plus they haven't found any way of actually harming them, let alone killing one.

Remember, old rules had it that Azrael's helmet bearer was impervious to all damage. Yeah, up to and including a titan-scale weapons.

Add to that the fact that they never seem to cause any harm, or do anything noticable at all, for that matter, plus the realy low numbers that they appear in.

Besides, even a fair number of Inquisitors tolerate or even accept the Jokaero.

Even now the Dark Angels put their own agenda ahead of that of the Emperor wishes, which is essentially a continuation of their Primarch's attitude.

To the Lion's defence, he had only himself for company while growing up.

It wasn't until a decade after he landed on Caliban that Luthor discovered him.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

My point is not that I'm declaring a fact, it's that there are a lot of question marks which make the idea of the Lion being only ever on the side of the Emperor a little dubious. Even now the Dark Angels put their own agenda ahead of that of the Emperor wishes, which is essentially a continuation of their Primarch's attitude.

There´s a Novel that dispels that doubt.. in that novel we learn that the Lion is only faithful to the emperor and will be the equalizer so that no one (Horus or Guiliman being the strongest candidates) substitute the Emperor as leader of humanity. That's not history being written by the victors, that's the Lion himself saying it.

[Brother Amarel]

That's not history being written by the victors, that's the Lion himself saying it.

Is that not exactly history being written by the Victors? The Lion himself said it, and it was he that won the battle of Caliban?

 

Anyway my point is simply that there's not a cut and dried truth, simply a more believable and less believable set of events, either one of which could be right. The eventual outcome is, of course, without dispute - regardless of how it came about, there are an amount of Space Marines that are traitors to the Dark Angels.

[DarthMarko]

He cut out one of Leman Russ's hearts because he felt Russ was responsible for making him miss the battle for Terra.

 

So... what do you think? ;)

Story from the "WD" :- Russ wanted to liberate traitorus occupied worlds, while Lion wanted to rush to Terra - In the end Lion listened to Russ - they killed some traitors and when they came to Terra they saw Dorn, KFC Sanguinius + freshly butchered Empy...Now here is the dumb part - Russ recives a vision from the Empy (yes, you heard it well), and when he wakes up Lion stands in front of him with a blade, blaming him for the death of their father and challenging him to a duel...

Then Russ rips his chest armor and plunges himself to the sword; Lion twists his blade before it reaches the vital part (not so expert on the primarch anatomy)...Russ goes to sleep :-) ,awakes and there are Dorn and Lion standing by his side....

Lion apologizes and since then they are bros 4life...And Lion is not a neutral bastard...But how the BL is heading, who knows damn them....

[Bryan Blaire]

That's not history being written by the victors, that's the Lion himself saying it.

Is that not exactly history being written by the Victors? The Lion himself said it, and it was he that won the battle of Caliban?

 

Anyway my point is simply that there's not a cut and dried truth, simply a more believable and less believable set of events, either one of which could be right. The eventual outcome is, of course, without dispute - regardless of how it came about, there are an amount of Space Marines that are traitors to the Dark Angels.

Well, the Dark Angels don't actually know what happened to the Lion. I'm not sure the destruction of the planet counts as "winning" all that much, so much as their enemies were simply gone and the planet broken up. The Lion was gone when they found Luther, who, while crazy, already had a repentant moment.

 

Brother Amarel, the Horus Heresy series is pretty much the cut and dried truth, it hasn't been being presented as propaganda or disputable. It is supposed to be the actual story of how the Horus Heresy happened. There have even been HH author quotes stating that the stories settle the disputes on the story of the Lion being a traitor with finality.

 

I mean, going by that train of thought of history being written by the victors, the Lion's sentiments on Guilliman building a second Empire may actually have been true, but since the Ultramarines were "more" victors than the DA, it never happened. But it looks like we will know more about the actual truth from "Unremembered Empire" when it finally debuts.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Never forget that history is written by the victors.

 

You forget that the HH series is not written from the 'victors' perspective. But from a ;this is pretty much what happened' perspective.

 

Ergo: the HH says he was not a traitor, he was not a traitor.