Faildex? Really?

[darth_giles]

So why is everyone complaining about the new codex, when it stands head and shoulders above the 4th edition codex and the 3.0 codex that it was somewhat based on?

 

Seriously. I'm starting to think the CSM audience has become unpleasable. We've actually got viable lists here, even if the legions didn't get as much as we'd been hoping for.

• Dark Apostles and War(p?)smiths. They're available as an HQ choice, and give buffs. In a Word Bearers or Iron Warriors list you arguably shouldn't be using marked troops anyway if you're *that* concerned about background fluff. I don't see why people are demanding they be an Elites choice; these guys should have the option to lead a fluff-based force.
  
• Forgefiends and their melee equivalent. Just. Wow. The models look pretty good and I see room for a huge variety of conversion. Plus there's Hades Autocannons, and those look all kinds of nasty.
  
• Helldrake. A modestly high- armor flyer with It Will Not Die and a HADES AUTOCANNON? (yes, I am giving it all caps for ham and emphasis)
  
• The new Dreads. So what if they're still crazy, they actually got a new sculpt for the first time that I can remember! golly, a new sculpt!
  
• Obliterators weren't nerfed, and they got a close combat equivalent that I'm not too big on.
  
• Havocs with a Skyfire option. Loyalists could've gotten them as an FAQ/Errata/Update entry, and didn't. We did.
  

 

So yeah. The only reason I'm not doing freaking cartwheels is because I don't like the Dark Vengeance sculpts. Everything looks like it (still) has too much of a Nurgle influence for my tastes, which is a relatively small thing. I can wait a few months until the rest of the line is out so I can see whether or not to make my evil Loyalist chapter. My codex is at least a year and a half older than the CSM one, and I'm having to grasp at straws to find a list that isn't totally outclassed by one from the CSM codex.

[Hazath]

I just wished to have berserker and plague marines in TDA.

 

Main problem that I have with this codex though, is that:

 

1. Units that are overcosted for what they do (possesseds, warp talons, Thousand Sons, Daemon Prince, Fabius, Reaper AC for Terminators, Murder Sword)

 

2. Unit and Options that are downright wierd (Mutilators, D.Key, Ichor Blood, Chain Axes, Slaanesh daemon prince with rending, Scroll of Magnus)

 

For Dark Apostle: as a word bearer player, I really want to love DA, but he is just watered down version of Chaplain.

[Kol Saresk]

How is Ichor Blood weird? It gives you the chance to either kill your attacker with an extra S3 AP4 attack per wound caused to your model or to even take him with you so he can't go do something else. Granted, a S3 AP4 isn't the best thing in the world, especially against PA or even TDA, but it's better then nothing.

[darth_giles]

I just wished to have berserker and plague marines in TDA.

I wouldn't mind those either, but Cult Terminators seem to be completely dead unless you want the Khorne ones from ForgeWorld. I'd rather have Slaanesh termies with sonic blasters, though. The studio favors Khorne and Nurgle way too much.

 

For Dark Apostle: as a word bearer player, I really want to love DA, but he is just watered down version of Chaplain.

That's how they were in the 3.5 codex.They got a Daemon Weapon that granted a 4+I save and ignored armor saves. Which was huge in the day, because Chaos had no other way to get 4+I (the only ways to get a 5+I were to be a daemon or wear terminator armor), while a Chaplain got the same kit without Mastery issues for about the same points.

[Brother Ambroz]

That's not all true and alot of people don't like the new daemon engines' look. In addition, a few things. Sure the hades autocannon looks nice but with BS 3 only half of those are hitting.

 

The DA is not very impressive at all. For a few points more you get a much stronger chaos lord or sorceror who can both get the 4++, take mace weapons and benefit your army much more. In addition loyalist versions can take TDA, Bikes or jumpacks (the same with smiths).

 

The Warpsmith has some potential in mech heavy environments and I do like them.

 

The main reason so many people are annoyed/depressed or whatever is because C:DA is just around the corner and the rumors are sounding pretty crazy for them. People are afraid they're going to be the next C:GK or Crons. Then they look at our book in comparision and this is the result.

[Yogi]

The difficulty in pleasing chaos is you have guys who want to play a certain way, ie mono God for example, if this isn't viable the codex is fail.

 

Viable means able to deal with mech spam, infantry spam, termie spam, all out assualt, gunline and hybrid. With one list you have to have a "chance" against all of that or its not viable. Also flyer spam but that is just GW moving the goal posts again.

 

Personally I think the codex is fail because is boring and the new things like dino bots, goatse dragon are awful. Plus mono Khorne seems meh.

[Babel_Triumphant]

I think that people are only seeing the bad, rather than the good. I've had only good experiences with the codex thus far. Heldrakes are overpowered, there are a bunch of powerful and efficient HQ options, the fast attack slot is so good that it's impossible to get everything you want, the heavy support options are generally quite efficient, and the elites slot has chosen and cheap terminators, both of which have some perks that put them above loyalist variants.

 

The book has a few units that are of questionable worth: Defilers, Warp Talons, Possessed, thousand sons, and Mutilators come to mind. That said, I've seen possessed in action in quite a few games and they do much better in practice than they would seem to on paper. I run one or two squads of thousand sons for fluff reasons, and while not incredible they don't feel at all like deadweight. Others will attest to the value of defilers and mutilators in specific roles. Certainly, none of the choices are irredeemably bad.

 

The rumors for dark angels do seem over-the-top, but you have to take them with a grain of salt; a lot of the chaos rumors seemed pretty nutty as well. I remember leaked pictures of 3-point cultists. As it is, we ended up with a solid book with plenty of options. It's easy to cherry-pick our weaker units and compare them to other codices' powerful ones and lament the "faildex", but I don't feel like that's reasonable.

[Vesper]

All I have against this codex, is that I think we'll end up in the same situation than the one we were with the gavdex for five years. Might take a couple of releases, but in due time, that'll happen.

Oh, and blandness. Yeah, blandness too.

 

Seriously. I'm starting to think the CSM audience has become unpleasable.

I think that's the natural consequence of delivering a product as bad as the gavdex. If you want my feeling about it, Chaos is broken, and will never recover from it. And it seems that GW is fine with it, as the actual codex is based on the gavdex. Mix that with a terrible state of the game (with a balance at its worst in the history of 40k), crazy prices, poor new designs (thunderwolves, helldrake, dreadknight), bad dev team...

I'm quite unpleased. Not disappointed as I espected next to nothing, and that's what we were given.

[Excessus]

But what i think irks most people about our current codex is the fact that with just very minor tweaks to some badly balanced things we could have had such a wonderous codex. With Thousand Sons as...not bad, but boring, as they are, and other things like DA and WS that will almost never see a battlefield(well, the WS will in a few occasions).

 

Imagine a tweak such as increasing the range of the DA from 6" to something meaningful. That would give them a completely different role in the army(mobile leadership antenna), imagine giving Aspiring Sorcerers access to other schools of magic despite having MoT(because they are just that good at it)...

 

...and so on, minor things on a few units.

[Fibonacci]

Wait a few weeks for the band wagon to move on and we can get back to business.

[Aidoneus]

I've played 6 games with the new 'dex so far, and I've had a blast every time. Granted, I'm playing casual games against friends, so I can't comment on how competitive the new 'dex is. But it certainly can hold its own. More importantly, I love having more than one viable build. So far, I've been pleased with Berzerkers, Plague Marines, basic CSMs, and Cultists as troops. CSMs especially are nice because of how very customizable they are, so you can get just the unit you need to fit your list. I wasn't optimistic about daemon princes, but a Winged Tzeentch Prince with Black Mace, while expensive, has turned out to be quite a beast. I love the ability to mark things like oblits and raptors, and I like the distinction between marks and icons. The jury's still out on the forgefiend/maulerfiend, because I've only played one game with each, but my defilers have been fantastic. Yes, I know 195 is steep, but don't underestimate how tough AV12 can be with 4 hull points, a 5+ inv, and It Will Not Die. I was incredibly happy that bikers are finally cheap enough to be viable, and a unit of 3-4 with 2 melta has performed well consistently. Havocs are dirt cheap, as are predators. Spawn got a huge boost, and are great for tarpitting, bodyguarding a lord, or killing anything that doesn't have great armour saves. And finally, the Heldrake is... well, it's the toughest flyer in the game, has a nasty MEQ-killing torrent weapon, and can even Vector Strike! Oh, and I have to say, I love the flavor of rolling on chaotic tables, like the warlord traits, the boons, and even the dreadnought and spawn crazy-tables. Maybe that's the 3.0 chaos player in me though.

 

Now, is it all sunshine and rainbows? Of course not. There are still a couple of dud units, although not as many as some people seem to think. Mutilators are definitely weird, although my friend dropped a Nurgle one behind my lines one game and I did at least have to spend a decent amount of effort killing it off, lest it get loose in my tanks/havocs. A few of the named daemon weapons seem overcosted (murder sword, although it did murder the ever-loving snot out of a termy chaplain for me) or underpowered/too random (scroll and key). And I do wish they had un-named daemon weapons. I wish they'd left mark of Khorne as a simple +1 A. Thousand sons need to be cheaper, for sure, and I'm not sure defilers needed to go up as much as they did (in the 170-175 range would've been good). And yes, I'd like to see more god-specific upgrades for non-cult units (sonic weapons for slaanesh champions, termies, and dreadnoughts for example; or chainaxes in other khorne units). And yes, like any good 3.5 fanboy, I miss the alternative legion lists.

 

On the whole though, judged on its own merits, I think the codex is a success. I honestly hope all future codices will be written to this standard, with lots of viable builds, but no one overpowering build. Balanced codices make balanced lists, lots of variety, and prevent a stagnant metagame. And really, at the end of the day, we're playing a game, so the only true measuring stick is how much fun I have playing my army. We'll see how it stands the test of time, but so far, I'm having a blast!

[Kol Saresk]

Snip

^_^ Stuff like this is why I prefer factual over theoretical. :wub:

[Dammeron]

The current codex is a vast improvement over the last one, but given how obscenely compromised that piece of work was, that isn't saying much. And therein lies the rub; after the patent kick to the teeth for established Chaos players that was the last codex; the patently corporate nonsense of removing daemons from Chaos Space Marines entirely (resulting in two half armies that have never worked in isolation), amongst other absurdities, THIS codex had to be amazing in order to revitalise faith and interest in GW's attitude towards the force.

 

Does it do that?

 

Not quite. It IS far more viable; the product has far more quality in terms of the writing, artwork and general production. Taken entirely on aesthetic and narrative terms, it's a monumental success.

 

However, the army list is, once again, a matter of profound compromise. It's infinitely more workable, owing to some new units and dynamics that alter the manner in which Chaos generally plays, but it still reeks of being slapped together at the last minute. Either that, or heavily hacked and slashed by "editors" before publication. Units such as Warp Talons, Mutilators; options such as the Dimensional Key etc, which sound great on paper, but are actually pretty dreadful in practice, demonstrate a patent lack of consideration, but more than that; they are evidence that GW just haven't paid the slightest bit of attention to the last half a decade of complaints from Chaos players.

 

Look back over the most consistent problems people had with 4.0: one thing hardly anyone asked for is new units. What we wanted was for the core ethos and dynamic of Chaos to be more considered; for the force to have more flavour, more viable builds; to have a similar degree of consideration put into it as the likes of Dark Eldar.

 

Did that happen? Not really. It was a profound mistake, for one thing, to base this codex on the last one. As a result of that decision, the same problems and compromises still exist, only on a different plain. Yes, we have shiny new toys, but most of them are fairly half hearted. Dark Apostle and Warpsmith; where are the options for basic equipment like Terminator armour? Is there any good reason why they can't take those options? Why is the Dark Apostle just a Chaos Chaplain? Where are options for readings from the Epistles of Lorgar which grant random boons and curses to whatever unit he leads per turn? Why aren't there specific prayers that could be read by Plague Priests of Nurgle, or Pleasure Priests of Slaanesh, or Blood Priests of Khorne? Why is Tzeentch so appallingly under baked in this codex? Mark of Tzeentch: Allows models to make a single re roll of all to save rolls of one, or grants +1 to Ballistic Skill. There; easy fix; a viable Mark that makes Tzeentch workable again. And I'm not being paid for it. Why are there no God specific Chaos rewards? Why do Terminators, Chosen, Daemon Princes and Chaos Lords; the saints and demi gods of Chaos, not benefit from blessings and abilities that their bog standard troops do? Where are the artefacts and daemon weapons of Gods other than Khorne? Why are there no special rules reflecting daemonic pacts for Chaos Sorcerers (any enemy psyker attempting to cast a psychic power within 6 inches of a Chaos Sorcerer or which includes him in its area of effect has a heightened risk of suffering a Perils of the Warp result, owing to the daemons surging and swirling around the Chaos Sorcerer). It's this kind of inconsistency that bedevilled the last codex, and they still bedevil this one. All that's happened is we have distractions now; shiny new toys in the form of the Heldrake etc, which are very nice, but they are not what Chaos players generally seemed to want; what we wanted was some focus and consideration put into the core army list; something that would lend Chaos the vibrancy and genuine variety that it used to have in past editions.

 

Speaking personally, I've always been more of a modeller and painter than a gamer; I buy the books for the background; I make the miniatures because I love letting my inspirations fly (check out my Severed Angels thread in the WIP section: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=268514 plug, plug). Fortunately, I do have game systems out there that appeal to me more in this regard thanks to Fantasy Flight and their Black Crusade Role Play system, which has much more in the way of variety, adaptability and openness that appeals.

 

What bothers me most consistently is: I recall days when 40K had this too, plus the tension and dynamism (not to mention the scope) of being a war game. At the moment, what I find when I look at the meat and bones rules for Chaos in 40K is compromise.

 

To be 100% fair, this is what many of the loyalist chapters suffered with for a very long time. It's good to see the likes of the Space Wolves and Blood Angels getting something that accurately reflects their background and expands it a little more, not to mention allowing the variety and character they ideally SHOULD have. The up and coming Dark Angels codex sounds pretty damn good to me; the notion of their elite Terminators sounds perfectly in character. Same is true of the Necrons; I really like their current codex, even though I don't play them. I just wish there was more in the way of coordination amongst the design team; an established base level to which they worked, so that forces weren't compromised in comparison based on who happens to be writing them.

 

Also, there are things about the new Chaos codex I like; the addition of cultists is something I've been hankering after since the days of second ed (when they had an entire appendix army list). They add a nice new dynamic to Chaos forces in the form of expendable masses and meat shields. But where are the demagogues that lead them? Where is the option to upgrade them to mutants? I also like the concept of the Chaos Boon table, but not its execution. The notion of random events occurring not only to specific individuals but across the battlefield appeals to me with regards to Chaos. Also, why no god-specific tables for marked characters? The Heldrake is fine, but I don't want a single unit that kicks backside and others that cost a bundle in points but do very little.

 

Were I to mark the codex out of ten, it would be hovering around 5.5; shows improvement, but must try harder.

[totgeboren]

I definitely do not agree that the dex is a "faildex", as it is quite fun to use, and allows me to play my army more or less like I want to, without being severely gimped in the process.

Ok, the DA was a massive disappointment. What am I supposed to do with mine? He is in terminator armour? It's back to yet again using count-as and the mark of tzeentch, which sucks for me, as I was hoping for proper rules.

Sure I got a DA in power armour too, but it must be said that he costs as much as my Lord count-as DA in termi armour, and does not bring nearly enough utility or raw power to be worth as much. 20-25 pys less and I count have understood the point. Oh well, I got by using count-as the last 5 years, I guess I can manage 5 more. :D

 

Other than that, there are a few strange things which would be so easy to fix. Do GW designers stay awake at night, shivering in dread that someone might buy their possessed models? Why do they refuse to give them fair and balanced rules? I don't see why they need to be so nerfed, they were never op to begin with!

 

And whats with the bikes? Undercosted much?

 

I can understand the disappointment people felt that there are no proper Cult Terminators, but in a way there are. For Nurgle and Khorne, if you simply don't buy any of the Cult units, (Berzerkers, Plague Marines), you can give the rest of your army the same mark of your god, and consistency is achieved! For Tzeentch and Slaanesh it's a bit worse though.

[Dosjetka]

Snip

:D Stuff like this is why I prefer factual over theoretical. ;)

Agreed ;)

 

Ludovic

[AekoldHelbrass]

First of all, obviously we expected more and better, for following reasons:

 

1. Kelly was known for his good codexes, with rich story behind every unit. Just check out FB Beastmen and Warriors of Chaos, they are amazing! Lots of special rules that are fluffy and interesting, lots of artefacts to show the spirit of Chaos. And now we have 4 artefacts, and 1 of them is marked? This codex is basically a fail against all other Kelly codexes and armybooks.

 

2. There were rumours that this codex will cover legions. Yes, we were sceptical, but still we hoped. Because most people like themed armies, Legion-based armies. That's why Iron Hands players complain almost as much as we do, because just like us they want a themed army but have only 'one-codex-to-fit-them-all' thing.

 

3. This codex makes you do really stupid things. Compare with FB Warriors of Chaos. Your Lord there is a monster on the battlefield, only 2 other armybooks may stand a chance against him, and you're paying for that dearly in points. And that really represents true leader of Chaos, he is basically indestructible! And champions are strong, they must be strong in case of Chaos because they just will not be followed. And in our new codex you have to do lots of stupid things, like putting suicide naked champion together with your lord because in most cases your lord is cheaper but don't have a chance against most other HQ of other codexes. And even if your lord is ready to fight, you're still afraid to roll that stupid boons table because most of results are useless and spawnhood and daemonhood are just making you lose your lord completely. It's like codex is against you, not helping you. It would be amazing codex if they just ported Warriors of Chaos to 40k.

 

4. We're basically in the same position we were last editions - proof of concept. GW tested 6th edition codexes on us, just as they did last time. That's why all codexes after us will be fixed and ready to 6th edition, and we will stray crippled in comparison to other 6th edition codexes. It was better either to make us last codex of 5th edition, or move us even farther in time, to make 3rd codex of 6th edition.

 

5. It really feels like most of changes were driven by pure commerce, and they have nothing to do with balance or theme or background. Mutilators, big move from DP to lords, old units got much more powerful while new boxes are mostly useless.

 

So yes, in vacuum our codex may be good and even awesome. But in comparison to what we wanted - it's nothing. I really feel like moving to FW Horus Heresy, it has huge background section, it's written really interesting, and you have a feeling like it was made as a real game instead of pure commerce. And believe me, it really worth its price! For me it's the case of "shut up and take my money!", I wish they released second one already.

[Excessus]

I definitely think that our codex is fun and that you can build several nice and good lists with it. So far I've only had fun games with it myself, and I have started to buy models again for the first time in ages.

 

 

...but that doesn't say that it couldn't have been better... :tu:

[Polaria]

Well, guys, lets be honest to ourselves:

 

Which current codex allows you to play all the choices it has in competitive environment and they are still going to be awesome? None. Absolutely none.

 

Which current codices allows you too play several very different army types in competitive environment and they are still going to rock? Necrons. Maybe GK. I'm not too sure about anyone else.

 

Also, I would like to add that outside tournaments, even in "competitive environment", the local meta varies strongle from town to town. For example I've heard all these stories about how you NEED to have flamers and large blasts in tournament army to deal with Ork and Tyranid Hordes, but I've never faced an Ork horde in my life and the problem withbthe Tyranids isn't the horde but the truckload of wounds on T6 with high armour save and FnP.

 

On specific issue of Dark Apostle and Warpsmith... I've heard they are terrible. Never used DA myself, so can't say about that but Warpsmith is probably point-for-point the second killiest HQ I've seen (Necron Overlord is better) and in an army where you HAVE to challenge, that is quite valuable in itself.

[Nehekhare]

I don't even get why people think it is an improvement over the last dex. We lost fearless oblits, generic deamon weapons, cheap DPs, cheap teleport homers, infiltrating chosen, free ubergrit, heroic intervening daemons, mobile sonic weapons, good and non-random psychic powers. in exchange, we got useless gimmicks, overpriced ripoffs and point traps. The only good thing we can do now is giving marks to units again, but PMs are still better. The rest is phil kelly pissing on what the community wanted. Oh yeah, the anal turkey...they had to sell something, right?

 

I vote for "Codex: CSMeh" instead of faildex.

[MrSocks]

I haven't played chaos since 4th and I don't really intend to, but what I would really love, and what the community seems to need is 1, maybe 2, legion codexes like space marines get.(Not the god units but actually different legions, maybe Night Lords and Iron Warriors), which would allow C:CSM to focus on Black Legion and having decent God units without overpowering them with access to so many other options. It would allow GW to expand a little more of the fluff and therefore stick in new units and new options for these players. (like they did with Blood Angels and Dark Angels when they released their first codexes back in 3rd).

 

I think it would make CSM a more interesting army to collect since it would have more plausible builds. I just think there is far too much variation in the chaos codex to make all of it good without making some insane lists which is why you've ended up with a pretty meh codex. They need to split it into smaller, more tailored portions but make those portions better.

[Hellios]

I don't even get why people think it is an improvement over the last dex.

 

In terms of strength it isn't really that much stronger. Play 3.5, 4 and 6 against each other and they could all put up a fight. I would guess in the favor of 3.5 just because it has far more options. In terms of the quality of the book... Apart from needing a better editor it has in general improved over 4. Although I would have liked a smaller softback option, I guess they are going for nice book for collectors and an electronic format.

 

They did however sort out some of the problems... Spawn are better for example... It might not be a big issue for some. However they failed to put in a lot that would have been fairly simple to do, but which would have made a huge difference. They also took some cool things away, but that is always going to happen.

 

Did this codex fail? That depends on what standards you set. By two of three standards I think people might have when it comes to game-play I would say it has... For the third I would say you have debate.

 

1) Does it give you all the options to represent all the different forces of chaos in a fluffy manner.

A) No... I don't think anyone expected a chaos codex to ever do this... I guess if it was the size of the BBB you could do it. However many feel this codex didn't even try to address this. That at least it should have covered the 9 legions + possibly generic chaos (some say this is the Black Legion anyway) and renegades (Huron and friends). Different legions players seem to be satisfied to different degrees but even within the Legion fandoms you have division. Some Word Bearers go "Wooo, we have a DA!", while others feel "This DA is half-hearted attempt". Who is right? I couldn't say.

 

2) Does this codex provide good internal and external balance.

A) External: No, but it may be setting the new standard so I can wait to see. Internal: Better than the last dex, but it created some new problems and didn't do enough to solve some others. Certainly most people seem to think their are stronger and weaker units, the case with all codices I guess. So this is an issue with GWs rule design as a whole. Chaos however wouldn't make it into my top three balanced codices when it comes to internal balance.

NOTE: Some people will also ignore balance and go for pure strength overall. Even for these people this codex is not considered the best. In my case however I'm not looking for one codex to rule them all.

 

3) Does it provide a satisfactory compromise between game balance and fluff?

A) Maybe? People will differ depending on what is important to them. Again this often depends on what army people play, if they follow a specific aspect of the background. Anyone who says counts as gets a punch in the face.

 

There seems to be 3 views of the codex from what I've seen.

 

1) The glass is half full. Hey it isn't perfect but I like it.

2) The glass is half empty. You can make a working army but it doesn't meet my expectations and I can't make the army I want.

3) This glass smells like piss. GW have lets us down again... Who wants a game of Warmahordes?

 

As I say different people, different opinions. For me the problem is I haven't seen option 4.

 

4) Ahhh a cool beer after a hard day of labor. This codex has not only met but exceeded my expectations. I can do everything I want with it and more.

 

For your information the new Dark Eldar codex almost did this for me. Only Mandrakes let it down for me.

[Fibonacci]

Compare with FB Warriors of Chaos. Your Lord there is a monster on the battlefield, only 2 other armybooks may stand a chance against him

Let's just get to the point, shall we?

 

Everyone who wanted a GK on the juice codex with a side of necron air force is not happy with the new dex.

[darth_giles]

3) This glass smells like piss. GW have lets us down again... Who wants a game of Warmahordes?

The only way GW could get to that spot, at least from where I'm sitting, is to eliminate generic HQ and force us to use a named special character in each army.

 

40k is to D&D what Warmahordes is to Street Fighter. 40k has narrative and roleplay; Warmahordes is a plotless beat-em-up ported to the table.

[Lepaca]

Everyone who wanted a GK on the juice codex with a side of necron air force is not happy with the new dex.

 

It think it is unfair to say that everybody who was disappointed by the new dex was hoping for a gamebreaking facewrecker dex like GKs.

 

I for one think the new dex is acceptable but really disappointing in many ways as it fails to funtion well within itself.

The real letdown here is that these oversights could be fixed very easyly... If C:CSM is supposed to be a CC-oriented codex then include (worthwhile) CC oriented units aside from those found in the Fast Attacks slot! Give us assault vehicles or drop pods for crying out loud. How hard can it be?

[Brother Amarel]

Let's just get to the point, shall we?

 

Everyone who wanted a GK on the juice codex with a side of necron air force is not happy with the new dex.

Are you trolling Fibonacci?

 

No-one I know wants a flavour of the month power 'dex, but more viable choices and extra character. They want to create a mono-god list, or a biker list or get some sensible use out of the Mutlilators or Warp Talons that they bought. I don't think that makes them 'cheesy' players who don't want a narrative.