Faildex? Really?

[Excessus]

Quickfix:

 

WD update with more archaic/daemonic wargear options! :)

[the jeske]

So why is everyone complaining about the new codex, when it stands head and shoulders above the 4th edition codex and the 3.0 codex that it was somewhat based on?

a single old IA article stands above the JJ and/or Gav dex so , being better then those aint much of a feat.

 

Seriously. I'm starting to think the CSM audience has become unpleasable. We've actually got viable lists here, even if the legions didn't get as much as we'd been hoping for.

you tell me ? DA can build 3 different and viable armies .And when I say different I mean like totaly different game play . Chaos has the nurgle build which more or less mirrors the old gav dex builds , with the main difference being old DP split in half to form the nurgle biker HQ and drake . A zombi spam list , which is a gimik list build around the idea that the opposing army is unable to shift 120+ fearless FnP models from objectives [which is not always the case , but it is a hard counter list to stuff like scyth spam] and that is moer or less it . 1 and a half build isnt much for legion players and/or those who want to play non legion . for those who had to wait for this dex for 5 years , it is a lot more painful then for new guys , but that hardly matters in the end.

 

 

 

• Dark Apostles and War(p?)smiths. They're available as an HQ choice, and give buffs. In a Word Bearers or Iron Warriors list you arguably shouldn't be using marked troops anyway if you're *that* concerned about background fluff. I don't see why people are demanding they be an Elites choice; these guys should have the option to lead a fluff-based force.
   
  Because taking them as HQs makes no sense at all. Both are borderline bad when compared with a lord/sorc/huron.

  
  

• Forgefiends and their melee equivalent. Just. Wow. The models look pretty good and I see room for a huge variety of conversion. Plus there's Hades Autocannons, and those look all kinds of nasty.

bs 3 , no way to re-roll or make them twink linked . av12 walkers in an edition where people have to deal with av12 flyers and av13+ builds makes them non optimal . melee walkers , are melee walkers . the only time they were viable is when they were able to deep strike and charge the same turn and consolidate in to another unit.

 
Helldrake. A modestly high- armor flyer with It Will Not Die and a HADES AUTOCANNON? (yes, I am giving it all caps for ham and emphasis)
BS 3 . you take baal flamers and still in a flyer war armies which can run 2x2 or 4x1 and 3x1 flyers will win over armies which can run 3 , 4 If a flying DP is taken .
 
 
The new Dreads. So what if they're still crazy, they actually got a new sculpt for the first time that I can remember! golly, a new sculpt!

since when did sculpts have anything to do with people liking/disliking stuff? oblit models are bad in the extrem . They were played in 3.5 , they were the only hvy support choice in 4-5th and we a are still taking them now , because they give us stuff we dont have in other slots.
 
Obliterators weren't nerfed, and they got a close combat equivalent that I'm not too big on.
Well they were nerfed due to how they use their weapons , but we are still playing them . doubt this will change in the coming years.
 
Havocs with a Skyfire option. Loyalists could've gotten them as an FAQ/Errata/Update entry, and didn't. We did.
 
skyfire havocks are only worth taking if someone faces nid or demon armies [anything not with actual flyer , but flyer MCs] and even then those are used to ground stuff and finish of with plasma and not actualy deal with non MC flyers.

 

 

[Lieutenant Steel]

They'd still need to address the bizarre and overcosted units/ weapon options for it to interest me; there are just far too many units and weapons which I won't consider taking because they are too expensive. Beyond that there are multiple units I wouldn't take in this Dex because they seem to have no good role (i.e. no role that they perform above averagely in), especially for the points they cost (*Cough* Helbrute and Land Raider *Cough*).

 

I like the over all feel of the codex from a complete fluff + rules point of view, but everything about it screams that it could have been made better with little extra effort.

 

One example off the top of my head were the stories of the SM Chapters which were sent on the crusade to the eye of terror; some of the stories were fine; some stories even had me interested in the chaos Warband to the point of considering modelling some new CSMs to represent them (the Cleaved and The Scourged) but others were just straight up bull-poo- the Blood Disciples have been mentioned before in GW fluff/ older codices, so I was shocked and appalled that it looked as though their story had been written by a 12 year old with attention deficit disorder; despite my initial interest in them The Company of Misery also had an incredibly lame backstory, and felt like a bit of cop out, story-wise.

[darth_giles]

3. This codex makes you do really stupid things. Compare with FB Warriors of Chaos. Your Lord there is a monster on the battlefield, only 2 other armybooks may stand a chance against him, and you're paying for that dearly in points. And that really represents true leader of Chaos, he is basically indestructible! And champions are strong, they must be strong in case of Chaos because they just will not be followed. And in our new codex you have to do lots of stupid things, like putting suicide naked champion together with your lord because in most cases your lord is cheaper but don't have a chance against most other HQ of other codexes. And even if your lord is ready to fight, you're still afraid to roll that stupid boons table because most of results are useless and spawnhood and daemonhood are just making you lose your lord completely. It's like codex is against you, not helping you. It would be amazing codex if they just ported Warriors of Chaos to 40k.

Is it possible they're just situational buffs that don't have a direct impact on mathhammer? I've seen a lot of stuff derided because it didn't have any mathematical effects, and some flat ignored because it makes the number crunching too hard. Power Lances, anyone?

4. We're basically in the same position we were last editions - proof of concept. GW tested 6th edition codexes on us, just as they did last time. That's why all codexes after us will be fixed and ready to 6th edition, and we will stray crippled in comparison to other 6th edition codexes. It was better either to make us last codex of 5th edition, or move us even farther in time, to make 3rd codex of 6th edition.

That was actually the Necron codex. It was the first 6th Edition codex, even though it had to be rewritten for 5th edition play and then got an FAQ update to bring it back up to par.

5. It really feels like most of changes were driven by pure commerce, and they have nothing to do with balance or theme or background. Mutilators, big move from DP to lords, old units got much more powerful while new boxes are mostly useless.

Ever see Chaos Predators with Blastmaster turrets and Sonic Blaster sponsons? Or a pack of Juggernauts of Khorne summoned off an icon? Lichguard? Flamestorm Baals? There's always useless stuff in every codex.

[Kol Saresk]

5. It really feels like most of changes were driven by pure commerce, and they have nothing to do with balance or theme or background. Mutilators, big move from DP to lords, old units got much more powerful while new boxes are mostly useless.

Ever see Chaos Predators with Blastmaster turrets and Sonic Blaster sponsons? Or a pack of Juggernauts of Khorne summoned off an icon? Lichguard? Flamestorm Baals? There's always useless stuff in every codex.

Actually considering how many people want Predators with Blastmasters back, I can imagine that commerce was not the reason those got removed. What was, I'll never but GW does too many things that actually shoot their profits in the foot for "more profits" to be the reason. just look at Squats. GW admitted that they got rid of squats because no one on the designer team had no idea what to do with them, not because of "commerce." There are still people today who want the squats to make a comeback. But they most likely never will. So commerce as a motivation is a dud. What is a motivation, I will never know.

[the jeske]

Power Lances, anyone?

on fast moving assault units which can take 3+ power weapons per unit or have 5A base with access to re-rolls . So they kind of a boil down to very specific units , mostly of the LR transported sort.

 

 

That was actually the Necron codex. It was the first 6th Edition codex, even though it had to be rewritten for 5th edition play and then got an FAQ update to bring it back up to par.

actualy both the GK and necron dex were made with both editions in mind , that is why they stayed so good . from mechanics point of view /necron/IG and demons are the most 6th ed dex ever made right now[well along side the chaos sm dex] , just by the fact of having so many low points cost flyers and both army doing shoty so good.

 

 

Ever see Chaos Predators with Blastmaster turrets and Sonic Blaster sponsons? Or a pack of Juggernauts of Khorne summoned off an icon? Lichguard? Flamestorm Baals? There's always useless stuff in every codex.

Ok , but there is a huge difference between having a codex with a viable terminators list and a green wing list , which both have distinctivly different game play for 1 chapter/legion and making a 1 list codex for 9 legions+renagedes. maulers/melee oblits or other some other stuff being bad , doesnt matter if you have the ability to create different lists . I mean SW have BC in 3 different forms , they have wolf priests and stuff like lucas/canis . unit per unit they arent as far as we are from 1+ bad units per slot . Only they can build a lot of different builds , just because of stuff like ATKNF or drop pods.

[Trevak Dal]

But what i think irks most people about our current codex is the fact that with just very minor tweaks to some badly balanced things we could have had such a wonderous codex. With Thousand Sons as...not bad, but boring, as they are, and other things like DA and WS that will almost never see a battlefield(well, the WS will in a few occasions).

 

Imagine a tweak such as increasing the range of the DA from 6" to something meaningful. That would give them a completely different role in the army(mobile leadership antenna), imagine giving Aspiring Sorcerers access to other schools of magic despite having MoT(because they are just that good at it)...

 

...and so on, minor things on a few units.

 

 

I suppose one of my biggest let downs was the Brotherhood of Psyckers/Sorcerers rule not being used at all in anyway shape or form for us.

 

I don't like that you have to take Abaddon to make Chosen troops. *Beats dead horse* Should have had chosen and Terminators in one unit choice, with options and customization meaning you could make cult termies or chosen, Termies with plasma guns (not combi weapons) etc.

 

I don't like the backstep on the "all inclusiveness" that the Gavdex (and Daemons I'm told) had/has, with this business of Khorne can't join with Slannesh marked guys, etc. I understand fluffwise that wouldn't likely happen, but from a crunch point I think it would be cool. I also don't like that though they went back to the "no mark mixing" they didn't bring back 'sacred number' benefits, especially in a book where we get Nickel-and-Dimed for every little thing (I'm seriously surprised they let us have grenades included...)

 

I hate how you can't mark Hellbrutes and other vehicles for added benefits, but I especially hate it for the Hellbrutes. I don't like that the only way to get a Hades Autocannon or Baleflamer is to take the Helldrake or one of the other Daemon Engines.

 

I don't like how the Mark/Icon system works. You should be able to buy any and all Icons no matter the mark. Fear icon should negate/affect ATSKNF, Veterans of the Long War should be included in their points cost (without points increase since Loyalists get ATSKNF free) with the option to pay for extra ccw as it is. And since again we get nickel and dimed for EVERY SINGLE THING maybe allow us to have more than just special and Heavy weapons in tactical squads. If it has to be 'just 2' things per 10 guys, allow us to have ANY two, melee or shooting weapons. If we want to have a CSM squad with 2 lascannons, or a CSM squad with a imbeded Axe or Fist and a meltagun.

 

For that matter, Khorne Beserkers with the option to take up to 2 special CCWs instead of just plasma Pistols-that would be really cool I think. And even though it's in contention, I'd like to have had the option to make Raptors troops (or at least 1 squad of Raptors troops), and I'd like drop pods as dedicated transports with proper drop pod assault rules and a high capacity (15+) for the drop pod. "Black Crusade" drop pods, cost them 65 points with the ability to stuff a Hellbrute inside. */Beating a Dead Horse*

 

That's all I'm going to say about it anymore. I pretty much am moving forward with my army, building stuff and going to do what I can with what I got. I don't lose all that often, and it accomplishes what I wanted it to when i started out (be a different playstyle to my Tau army). I just wish I'd known it was going to be shifted to a "Orks in Power Armor" style, so I'd have planned out accordingly, but Whatever.

[Kol Saresk]

I don't like that you have to take Abaddon to make Chosen troops. *Beats dead horse* Should have had chosen and Terminators in one unit choice, with options and customization meaning you could make cult termies or chosen, Termies with plasma guns (not combi weapons) etc.

Actually if the points cost for what I'm seeing on Betrayal's lists, I'm kind of happy that didn't happen. With the current stats and that point cost, Possessed might finally see some love from players, no grenades be damned.

[the jeske]

Care to explain how +3/+5 random roll armed melee units outclass +2/+5 all power weapon [so possible mix of ap3.ap2 and high str ap4 weapons] , when both units have the same speed , can use the same infiltration , sit in the same slot , but with terminators having the options to also do something durning the shoting phase ?

[Brother Amarel]

Is it possible they're just situational buffs that don't have a direct impact on mathhammer? I've seen a lot of stuff derided because it didn't have any mathematical effects, and some flat ignored because it makes the number crunching too hard. Power Lances, anyone?

The maths for Power Lances really isn't hard to work out, is it? It's very unfair to state that people who don't like certain things are saying so based purely on "Mathshammer".

[Kol Saresk]

Is it possible they're just situational buffs that don't have a direct impact on mathhammer? I've seen a lot of stuff derided because it didn't have any mathematical effects, and some flat ignored because it makes the number crunching too hard. Power Lances, anyone?

The maths for Power Lances really isn't hard to work out, is it? It's very unfair to state that people who don't like certain things are saying so based purely on "Mathshammer".

Don't know how hard it is or isn't. But it does have one value for charging and then another value when it's not. But in one fight, both values may have be represented and the transition form one to the other and it's not exactly a common sight. Most of the math-hammer I have seen for the power lance is only on it's S User AP4 value but little to nothing on its S+1 AP3 value and how it transitions from one value to the other if the CC lasts more than one round after the charge. That and the fact that it can only ever be AP3 usually has it looked upon with eyes of scorn even though it could tear through PA on a charge.

 

And while it may be an unfair assumption, it's not exactly false in more than a few cases.

[Trevak Dal]

On Power Lances (and generic non GK Force Halberds) I was sorta disappointed that they don't confer +1 initiative while being two handed (so one less attack). Not as great as the GK stuff, but not incredibly overpowered either. Sorta messed up my plans for my Sorcerer Giselburtus but I guess I had fun modeling him, though whether to count the weapon as a Stave or a Axe, I suppose going for Crunch I'd go with an Axe (since he's going after most badguys anyways) and swing for the fences with the Force Weapon rolls.

 

I think it's cool that you can give Librarians other weapons besides force weapons (though the Force Fist eludes me still...I long to stand with a small cluster of dice and bellow "PREPARE FOR FORCE FISTING SHOU RYU-KEN TIME!"). I'm going to see if my friends will allow me to make Nemeroth(sp?) from the Space Marine game, with Force Lightning claws and Level 2 Caster and 2 built in plasma pistols. I'm still going to make the model, but I would like to get to play him (basically adding the Terminator armor, 2 claws and then 2 plasma pistols and extra mastery level straight points cost).

 

And another addendum to my complaints: Mark of Slannesh should make normally initiative 1 weapons (Powerfists, Axes, etc.) Strike at Initiative 2, because the MoS's appeal to me is to be radical good speed faster than Loyalist counterparts. If I'm going fist to fist, I'd like to get my points worth out of the mark.

 

My group has rules that an IC with grenades that joins a unit without (or if a unit chooses to "shoot" with an assault grenade before assaulting) all units assaulting that squad(s) shot with the grenade count as having assault grenades because it makes sense and is kinda "gamey" that it wouldn't work that way.

 

Warptalons themselves would benefit from being Jet-Pack like crisis suits (assault upon deepstrike, but standard 6inch move after DS), it's one of the "house rules" I'm going to propose the next time my group has a Moot, makes them better but not necessarily more OP than they are without giving them Heroic (anti-heroic?) Intervention, and balances it out with having a slower initial movement speed (6inches vs 12 as Jump infantry).

[Paradill]

The problem from my own humble point of view is that the gods of chaos promise you the galaxy, all your dreams of variety, power and more. Unfortunately GW never got that memo and instead give us a solid codex with some variety and some power that leaves us a bit underwhelmed.

 

I think we expect too much, but only because that is what we were promised and after the 4th edition dex, what we are owed.

 

Just my own thoughts though, no point spreading it around.

[Brother Amarel]

Is it possible they're just situational buffs that don't have a direct impact on mathhammer? I've seen a lot of stuff derided because it didn't have any mathematical effects, and some flat ignored because it makes the number crunching too hard. Power Lances, anyone?

The maths for Power Lances really isn't hard to work out, is it? It's very unfair to state that people who don't like certain things are saying so based purely on "Mathshammer".

Don't know how hard it is or isn't. But it does have one value for charging and then another value when it's not. But in one fight, both values may have be represented and the transition form one to the other and it's not exactly a common sight. Most of the math-hammer I have seen for the power lance is only on it's S User AP4 value but little to nothing on its S+1 AP3 value and how it transitions from one value to the other if the CC lasts more than one round after the charge. That and the fact that it can only ever be AP3 usually has it looked upon with eyes of scorn even though it could tear through PA on a charge.

From a sensible / practical point of view, you're only really going put Power Lances onto something that is near-guaranteed to get the charge and have a good chance to sweep through what it's charging, otherwise you're going to get bogged down against anything that is MEQ or TEQ. Even then, if you get counter-charged you're in trouble. Against anything with 4+ armour, though, it's a handy +1S charge bonus. Personally, I don't play against 4+ armour that often, really, and those that I do I can dispatch nearly as well with Power Swords on the charge rather than Lances. So, if I'm building a general list I'm always going to pick Power Sword. And note that I always build my models with a general list in mind as I'm not going to magnetize every arm nor buy every model twice :lol:.

 

And while it may be an unfair assumption, it's not exactly false in more than a few cases.

That's an assumption in itself. Everyone ought to be as honest as possible with what is experience and what is guesswork, otherwise we're going to learn nothing.

[Kol Saresk]

The major problem with the lance is that it only gets S+1 on the charge, which is the same time it gets AP3. While it would make since to either put it on Bikers, Raptors or some other unit that you use to charge, the reliability becomes its biggest issue. That's only reason I can think of why we see little to no math-hammer on the Power Lance and even what we do see ignores its Charge bonus. From what people are saying from their personal experience, it works in armies fighting Space Marines but only on the charge. If the unit gets bogged down... Well that's all she wrote.

[RiddarKato]

This might not be the correct place to ask but here goes.

 

I'm on the verge of starting up a 40k army (Fantasy player) and CSM caught my interest. I don't care much of the current power or meta of the army since my group usually play really friendly lists but I do have some questions about the play style.

In short, what I'm looking for is a equivalent of Warriors of Chaos from Fantasy. An elite army lead by a fearsome monster of a Lord. Now would that description fit in on CSM or should I go to my second choice which would be Space Wolves and go for a Renegade theme? (Grey Knights are taken already)

[Hazath]

This might not be the correct place to ask but here goes.

 

I'm on the verge of starting up a 40k army (Fantasy player) and CSM caught my interest. I don't care much of the current power or meta of the army since my group usually play really friendly lists but I do have some questions about the play style.

In short, what I'm looking for is a equivalent of Warriors of Chaos from Fantasy. An elite army lead by a fearsome monster of a Lord. Now would that description fit in on CSM or should I go to my second choice which would be Space Wolves and go for a Renegade theme? (Grey Knights are taken already)

 

 

Chaos have descent lord, but troops aren't that elite and shiny.

 

You can choose abbadon and have chosens as troops.

 

Or just go for space wolves or dark angel deathwing.

[LordRoY]

In short, what I'm looking for is a equivalent of Warriors of Chaos from Fantasy. An elite army lead by a fearsome monster of a Lord. Now would that description fit in on CSM or should I go to my second choice which would be Space Wolves and go for a Renegade theme? (Grey Knights are taken already)

 

To make this list with our current Faildex...

 

Nurgle Lord on Bike (HQ)

2-3 Nurgle Bike Units (Fast Attack)

2-3 Nurgle Plague Marine Units (Troops)

2-3 Nurgle Havoc Units w/Autocannons and/or Flakk Missile Launchers (Heavy Support)

2-3 Nurgle Terminators in Land Raiders (Elite)

 

0-1 Helldrake (Fast Attack)

0-1 Nurgle Obliterators (Heavy Support)

 

0-1 Bastion w/Quad Gun (Fortification)

 

Epidemius & Plaguebearer retinue (Allies)

 

 

This is about as "elite" an army we can muster now, and what I plan on building while shelving both my Khorne and Tzeentch 40k armies.

[Agent Purple]

Is it possible they're just situational buffs that don't have a direct impact on mathhammer? I've seen a lot of stuff derided because it didn't have any mathematical effects, and some flat ignored because it makes the number crunching too hard. Power Lances, anyone?

The maths for Power Lances really isn't hard to work out, is it? It's very unfair to state that people who don't like certain things are saying so based purely on "Mathshammer".

Don't know how hard it is or isn't. But it does have one value for charging and then another value when it's not. But in one fight, both values may have be represented and the transition form one to the other and it's not exactly a common sight. Most of the math-hammer I have seen for the power lance is only on it's S User AP4 value but little to nothing on its S+1 AP3 value and how it transitions from one value to the other if the CC lasts more than one round after the charge. That and the fact that it can only ever be AP3 usually has it looked upon with eyes of scorn even though it could tear through PA on a charge.

 

And while it may be an unfair assumption, it's not exactly false in more than a few cases.

 

Most of the math I've seen does considers lance on charge and off, but lance on charge against MEQ is the same as axe, lance off charge against MEQ confers no benefit compared to CCW (no need to math) lance on charge against TEQ can easily be interpolated from mace and sword results.

 

Lance is by inspection the worst weapon off charge. Therefore, in most cases you will only ever consider it in units likely to get the charge and kill or cripple their opponent on the first turn, or have some ability (like hit & run) to allow you to make use of the bonus frequently (and even then, the +16% wound bonus against MEQ on one turn is not going to offset the -66% chance to go unsaved against MEQ (vs sword) on the second round in terms of overall kills over two rounds of combat). I know those BA kids were considering DC lance unit with Dante, which can both cripple/kill a unit out right and has hit and run so you have a good chance to make use of to knock out another unit on subsequent turns. Bike command squad with Khan is another unit that might consider lances. Maybe death cult assassins with lance/axe charging out of a storm raven.

 

Lance is also hands down worse than a pair of lightning claws, so they are only a 'budget' choice, or if you are using your other hand for something like a stormsheild.

 

In most units with only a sergeant who has the option to take a special CCW, then lance doesn't even enter consideration due to the points above (which can easily be worked out without doing any math). The chaos melee units that could stack several weapons in this manner are chosen and terminators. Terminators have a relatively cheap swap out for claws, and additionally, their 2+ save makes the axe more attractive in general, since they will likely be alive to swing them against init. AP3 weaponry. Chosen also have access to claws. Both units would need a land raider to cart them around with to make sure they get the charge. I don't see this being attractive over just using them as a special weapons platform as is the norm anyways.

 

On a standard sergeant, I don't see the point since it is likely your unit will be bogged down for more than 1 turn of combat anyways, and since you can be forced into unfavourable challenges, it is often most attractive to just buy him a combi if anything. If you want your champion to kit for melee, but expect your unit to fight more than one round, might as well buy a pair of claws anyways and be straight up better than the lance in every round.

 

An interesting option would be to equip a biker sergeant with a lance in a slaneesh biker unit (escorting a macelord). If you have VOTLW the chance of your biker champeen killing a power armour librarian (2 wound MEQ with no invulnerable) on the charge is about 66%. Conversely, if you had a sword, this would only be 48%. Chance of killing a sergeant goes from 85% to 93% using sword or lance, so either way he is going to die before he gets to strike). Jumping over the 50% threshold against a librarian gives you the option to issue a challenge with your champion (instead of lord) and be favoured to win a fight regardless of whether the marine player chooses his librarian or veteran sergeant. Is this good enough reason to take lance over axe or sword? Probably not but there it is. Same principle could be applied if you wanted to use your champion as a 'hit man' to try and knock out other characters when you charge in 1 challenge round, but you might as well just pay the extra points for lightning claws if this is what you are going for.

 

Determining expected value or 'average' wound caused by an attack is extremely easy. Its (chance to hit) * (chance to wound) * (1-(chance to save)). If you have more than 1 attack, then multiply by the number of attacks. Where a D6 roll is concerned, your chance of doing something is equal to 7 minus the roll required divided by 6 (so a 3+ is 4/6, 2+ is 5/6 and so on), or 0 if no save is allowed. If you were to dice out a scenario an infinite number of times, the average result would tend towards this value. This is not the same as 'probability' but is the best basis for comparison between options to determine points effectiveness.

 

For example, with a 4+ roll to hit against an MEQ, average wounds caused by a lance on the charge is (3/6)*(4/6)*(1) = 0.333 wounds 'on average'.

A chaos champeen with 4 attacks on the charge would therefore cause 4*0.333 = 1.332 wounds 'on average.'

 

Not on the charge, champeen's average wounds against same MEQ target is only 0.333, so over two turns of combat, we expect a total of 1.665 MEQ kills from our champeen.

 

Sword with 7 attacks over two rounds gives us 1.750 expected MEQ kills, so after 2 rounds of combat lance is already giving diminishing returns, which is what we inferred from inspection anyways.

 

Probability of a something happening (like your %chance to kill a character in a given round of combat, or %chance to kill 3 bolter marines with a heavy bolter) is more difficult to calculate, but you can easily set up an excel spreadsheet to do this for you, assuming you have the software.

[Kol Saresk]

This is about as "elite" an army we can muster now, and what I plan on building while shelving both my Khorne and Tzeentch 40k armies.

I find this part the best because I remember when the Codex first came out, the Juggerlord with the Axe of Blind Fury list was the "elite" list and was our only build. Of course, there's only a few differentations. MoK being the most noticeable, no Cult troops being the second with plasmaspam all around!

[LordRoY]

I find this part the best because I remember when the Codex first came out, the Juggerlord with the Axe of Blind Fury list was the "elite" list and was our only build. Of course, there's only a few differentations. MoK being the most noticeable, no Cult troops being the second with plasmaspam all around!

 

Am I wrong tho? I really do feel this is the best we can go with currently, if you had to make one list to take on "all-comers".

[Kol Saresk]

Yes and no. Most of the lists presented are the Khorne variation I listed above. Once upon a time that variation was believed to be the only optimal build. Like last month IIRC. It was believed to be the "all-comers" list. Although I do recall a big debate on whether or not the Juggerlord could run with the bikers but most people took the jugger anyways. So the Khorne-variant is there. According to battle reports, all other lists are shoot-and-miss. Some have more success than paper says they should while others are playing with the odds. If you recall in the other DA/Faildex thread, an Unmarked Word Bearers list was brought up? According to the battle reports he posted(I think there was three) he was having hit and miss but there was a belief right after release that Unmarked lists would either be tabled or still lose. IIRC, one battle report was a win, another a loss and I want to say the last was a draw.

 

Anyway, there are some lists that are "questionable" at best and worst and then there are the two variants of the biker list and one is a Khorne variant. Should be good news for your Khorne army. And if Khorne is really want you want to go for, what I would suggest is looking at the THRONE OF SKULLS forum(not the subforum on BnC) as those guys are not just devoted to making a Khorne list work, but a Berzerker list as well so they might be able to help you far better than most people here are willing to.

[LordRoY]

Anyway, there are some lists that are "questionable" at best and worst and then there are the two variants of the biker list and one is a Khorne variant. Should be good news for your Khorne army. And if Khorne is really want you want to go for, what I would suggest is looking at the THRONE OF SKULLS forum(not the subforum on BnC) as those guys are not just devoted to making a Khorne list work, but a Berzerker list as well so they might be able to help you far better than most people here are willing to.

 

I went to that site (I think you mentioned it before) and most of the threads there are either dead or really really old. There is only like 1-2 threads/replies in the past 2 weeks, and maybe another 1-2 more total in the month of December. Considering they have so few "new" threads/replies since the codex came out, I would guess they have abandoned the throne as I have for now. Thanks for the info tho.

[Kol Saresk]

I usually see one or two new replies a day. It's mostly they only respond to what they see. They see dead threads so they leave them dead.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Let's just get to the point, shall we?

Everyone who wanted a GK on the juice codex with a side of necron air force is not happy with the new dex.

 

Somehow I miss facepalm icon on this forum... Let me say it this way: rumours that Kelly is the author made me extremely happy, because personally I really wanted Warriors of Chaos in space. If I wanted GK I would play GK. And to repeat once again: Warriors of Chaos are written by Kelly, not by ward.

 

Is it possible they're just situational buffs that don't have a direct impact on mathhammer? I've seen a lot of stuff derided because it didn't have any mathematical effects, and some flat ignored because it makes the number crunching too hard. Power Lances, anyone?

 

No they are not. Chaos Lord in FB is able to tear Daemon Prince apart. By FB standards, all of CSM HQ choices (maybe except Abaddon and DP) are Heroes, not Lords. And I really miss lords, true lords of Chaos. It just feels very right when you're composing your army to have single extremely powerful leader, but now even slave 3rd level sorc costs more than "lord".

 

4. We're basically in the same position we were last editions - proof of concept. GW tested 6th edition codexes on us, just as they did last time. That's why all codexes after us will be fixed and ready to 6th edition, and we will stray crippled in comparison to other 6th edition codexes. It was better either to make us last codex of 5th edition, or move us even farther in time, to make 3rd codex of 6th edition.

That was actually the Necron codex. It was the first 6th Edition codex, even though it had to be rewritten for 5th edition play and then got an FAQ update to bring it back up to par.

They've changed format of the codex. For example moving even champion weapons to single list with lord weapons? And now gearing up TDA champion can be so expensive that it's better to equip all other terminators in squad and leave champion almost naked. Or stuff like "Soul Blaze" that we can see everywhere. There are still plenty changes that I'm almost sure we'll see fixed in next codexes, and in few years our codex will still be something like "well, what did you expected? It's the first of 6th edition."

 

Ever see Chaos Predators with Blastmaster turrets and Sonic Blaster sponsons? Or a pack of Juggernauts of Khorne summoned off an icon? Lichguard? Flamestorm Baals? There's always useless stuff in every codex.

 

I'm not talking about useless stuff, I'm talking about consistent pattern which stuff is useless and which is not. Why both Raptors and Warp talons are quite useless, while having awe-inspiring models? Why bikers are so great, while having one of the oldest models out there (except for Berzerks maybe)? Shift from DP to Lord, spawn levelup, basically other than Nurgle lists you have to buy your army almost from scratch, even for Nurgle now you need zombies.