RiddarKato Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Thanks for the replies Hazath and LordRoy. Since Nurgle was my deity of choice I'll probably try the chaos dex. I read through both codexes (ofcourse not understanding all the rules since I'm new to the game) and the Chaos one seem to have a lot more "special stuff" in it. The wolves have the sagas, wulfen and lone wolves but not much else while Chaos have marks, cult troops, boons, daemonengines and so on. Also, by just comparing the stat lines of the wolves troops to the CSM they seem pretty much to be at the same level. Is there something I'm missing that make the wolves more elite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 mostly it's that SW have inbuilt the good "special stuff" that CSM have to pay for, together with immunity to morale making them better for the same or even less pts cost. they just skip the fancy, ineffective special stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiddarKato Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 So if I understand it right the chaos units are not particularly weak, they are just too costly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 either too costly or suffering from inbuilt weaknesses like lack of grenades, randomness, morale, forced challenges, snipable icons. likewise, most gear options are traps, while the necessary ones cost too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 So if I understand it right the chaos units are not particularly weak, they are just too costly? Some of them are a little over-costed for what they bring. That said, basic CSM are good core troops - just remember that without ATSKNF they need to gain advantages elsewhere (and it is here, where SW have a number of those advantages for 'free' that people draw bad comparisons). There's still plenty of good stuff in C:CSM, it's just that there's a higher-than-hoped-for amount of chaff amongst the wheat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Purple Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 So if I understand it right the chaos units are not particularly weak, they are just to costly? It depends on the unit. Plague marines are pretty 'strong' for example. Cultists are a particularly 'weak' unit. Most CSMs are par for the course in terms of stats and point costs, but lack the morale special rule 'And they shall know no fear' which allows loyalist marines to ignore almost all the downsides of morale, which is a considerable drawback. In fantasy terms, a 'chaos warrior' and 'chaos lord' statline wouldn't be so elite if every other army has S4 T4 heavy armour core units, and beefy characters (in 40k marines or their variants are the most common armies). So while your chaos marines may be 'elite' compared to imperial guardsmen, your army will only really be 'average' when fighting against most opponents, who also wear power armour and have a mostly 4's statline. In 40k, since marines are so dominant, in order to feel really elite you need to go a step above, like with a blood angel sanguinary guard army, space wolf wolf guard army, GK draigo wing etc... in order to get the low-model count but considerably stronger model for model feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiddarKato Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 First off thanks, you are all being very helpful. And too bad about the CSM dex being kinda crappy, I was looking forward too playing chaos but I'll suppose I will play SW and make a "count as" renegade army for my chaosy needs. Also that lack of "And they shall know no fear" is a huge lack luster for me. It would annoy me to death to see my marines getting swept away after loosing a fight but not the loyalist counter part(If I understand the rule correct). Seems kinda silly too me that veterans of hundreds of campaigns are so fragile. And sorry for kinda derailing the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Purple Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 First off thanks, you are all being very helpful. And too bad about the CSM dex being kinda crappy, I was looking forward too playing chaos but I'll suppose I will play SW and make a "count as" renegade army for my chaosy needs. Also that lack of "And they shall know no fear" is a huge lack luster for me. It would annoy me to death to see my marines getting swept away after loosing a fight but not the loyalist counter part(If I understand the rule correct). Seems kinda silly too me that veterans of hundreds of campaigns are so fragile. And sorry for kinda derailing the thread It depends on what kind of marines you are running. Cult units (noise marines, plague marines, thousand sons, and berzerkers) are fearless, so they don't have this problem. Fearless means you will never fall back, and never go to ground. The loyalist rule allows them to avoid all the disadvantages of falling back, including the chance to be swept and destroyed completely (although the still move backwards distance, which can take them off the board if they are close to it). Loyalists can also be forced to go to ground by pinning weapons, but can also voluntarily to go to ground for the defensive advantage of +1 cover save if they want to. The army also has some mechanics for dealing with this for non-cult units. Chaos lords are also fearless and confer this ability upon their unit (but you only get 2 HQ slots unless you are playing more than 2000 points, and you might also want a sorceror or other character). Most units also have the option to buy a icon upgrade, which confers fearless. The problem with the icon is that in close combat, when you need it most, enemy characters have a chance to snipe your icon (every time a character rolls a 6 to hit, they can choose any engaged model to resolve the wound against), causing your unit to lose fearless and opening them up to being killed in a sweep if you lose. You can also lose your icon of you are careless with positioning (or your opponent is crafty with manouvering) to ranged attacks if it is the closest model, or for a character's ranged precision strike (which, for most characters, unless they are manning a gun emplacement, is much less scary than melee precision strike due to lower quantity and quality of shots). The icon is also somewhat expensive unless you are running large squads. 10 CSM with an icon are only 5 points cheaper than a loyalist tactical squad, and more expensive than a full space wolf grey hunters squad (equivalent units), but the tactical squad and grey hunter squads also come with free weapon upgrades for two models and additional special rules to boot, while the CSM unit just has bolters or pistols and swords. While being swept really sucks, most of your units that you are trying to melee with (like bikers) will probably have a lord in them for fearless anyways. What also really sucks is when standard CSM squads, which are generally suited to mid-range shooting, start failing morale checks for taking shooting casualties, and are forced to fall back. Although there is no danger of being swept, when they rally in the following turn, the unit is limited to a free 3" rally move only, and can only fire snap shots (BS1) in the shooting phase (so the unit is essentially cripped for a turn, plus if you rolled average on your fall back distance, you have also lost your position). Loyalist marines get the free 3" rally move, plus their normal move (so a total of 9" to reclaim position), plus can shoot normally, and can even assault something on a turn where they rally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Is there something I'm missing that make the wolves more elite? what does Mark of the space wolf give to them counter attack if they pass Ld , ATSKNF[which as others said is better then fearless] , hidden power ax [they can take a power weapon/fist for one normal dude per squad those cant die unless you snipe them with precision shot] , if that wasnt enough they have Mark of wulfen [one model in the unit gets d6 rending attacks] , they have their own icon[like our , but one use only , but the use is awesome re-roll 1 on everything. I have seen 2 terminator WG and runinc armored Rune priest lose 2 wounds to 3 units of lootaz 3 units of boyz and one units of nobz] . last very important thing is that they get drop pods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazath Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 what does Mark of the space wolf give to them..... Well, this is more terrifying than I imagined... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 embrace teh SW codex you know you want to play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Warrior w/ Servo Arm Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 embrace teh SW codex you know you want to play it. And become a dirty furry? No. Real men play Chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazath Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Been playing Chaos since 3.5 came out. Never changed, but nurturing frustration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 embrace teh SW codex you know you want to play it. And become a dirty furry? No. Real men play Chaos. horuse wore fur , if it is good for him it is good for any other chaos dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 embrace teh SW codex you know you want to play it. And become a dirty furry? No. Real men play Chaos. horuse wore fur , if it is good for him it is good for any other chaos dude. Bah, just those black ones wants to copy that big failure. My blue dudes follow ourselves, we have a plan...we think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 embrace teh SW codex you know you want to play it. And become a dirty furry? No. Real men play Chaos. horuse wore fur , if it is good for him it is good for any other chaos dude. o0....oh ye gods its true..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Care to explain how +3/+5 random roll armed melee units outclass +2/+5 all power weapon [so possible mix of ap3.ap2 and high str ap4 weapons] , when both units have the same speed , can use the same infiltration , sit in the same slot , but with terminators having the options to also do something durning the shoting phase ? Because Possessed have fleet, fearless and can buy a Rhino. Fleet is huge. Possessed arent that bad anymore. Still too expensive, I would say around 3 points too expensive per model, but fine apart from that. Yes they have a random roll in assault, but all of them make you simply hit harder in assault unless you face 2+ save models and roll Ap3. 10 Possessed, MoN. 300 points. That is how I would run them, with an optional rhino depending on the list. For me this codex is actually everything I wanted and more. So I guess I am the one? Why it is that way? Because I love Plague Marines and Obliterators. The only thing I wanted was a couple of other good units so I can put slight variations to my list. Oh the other thing I wanted was 1 competitive list including Plague Marines and Oblits while not having to use Allies. I can do that, although barely and no idea how it will hold up after future releases but we will see about that. I wonder if some people here even realise that Allies are a vital part of the game at the moment. Almost no codex is as strong with allies as without them at the moment. I see people mentioning IG, BA and SW a lot for example. Those armies are hardly viable without Allies... Necrons can do it and GK barely. Daemons because of their ridicilous WD update which lets the ignore fliers and just kill everything on the ground. Oh and lets talk about SW and BA a bit more. (I am a BA player myself and also very familiar with SW, as thats the army I helped my mate optimise with great succes) Blood Angels have :cussty troops. Worse than Plague Marines for sure. Their main unit, Assault Marines, have loads of issues which affects all their builds. Most people are being forced to look for allies or including a lot of Tactical Marines. Their fast vehicles are generally less relevant and Priests arent as good anymore either. Try making a competitive build which doesnt have really bad matchups with just using the BA codex. Good luck. Space Wolves generally spammed 3 or 4 units in 5th. Long Fangs, Grey Hunters, Rune Priests and sometimes Thunder Wolves. Extras being Lone Wolves, Land Speeders and Scouts for taste. However their core was and is spammy as hell. Do I need to mention that they have 2 troop choices of which 1 is terrible and never ever used in competive play? Wanna speak about Necrons? Or Grey Knights? You think they are less bland when being played cometitively without Allies? Dont make me laugh. Wanna speak about all the codices which are crap at the moment and not viable at all without using allies? Dark Eldar, Eldar, BT, Orks, Sisters. Any idea how long some of them have to wait for a new codex? Seems like you guys want to be both competitive and have a lot of interesting builds without having to use Allies. Almost no codex has this. The grass is always greener on the other side, except it is not when you are actually on the other side. The so called competitive guys here should ask themselves if they are competitive, or if they are competitive with certain restrictions. I hardly ever (never?) complain. Why? Because I either adapt if I want to be competitive or I accept that I am not fully competitive and bear the consequences. This codex has at least 1 competitive build on itself and the build itself has some spare room for options once you got the core. Great. Now let us look at allies shall we? Ill do a real post on this probably in the future, but lets now look at least to which allies we got acces (as convenience or battle brothers, desperate is useless): Necrons. Imperial Guard. Daemons. Orks. Tau. OMG so overpowered. We got acces to 5 codices which are all completely different than our own and which can fill up gaps and allow us to use other units in certain slots because they can take roles over. Do I think the codex is perfect? No. Would it have been better if they would have hired me to adjust some point costs to balance the codex out? Yes. Thing is, the codex is here and wont go. You can continue to whine but its useless. Either make the best of it or move on. We all know how GW is. Nobody forces you to buy their stuff or play their game. You choose to. For the record: I have 2 armies and are trying to sell both at the moment. This means I can start any army I want. Any. And I probably go for Chaos (again). I am glad the codex didnt turn out to be super amazing, would have meant too many people playing Chaos on tournaments, I hate that :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I dont know why everybody claims that Icons are "snipable" when they migh be actually harder to kill than before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 10 Possessed, MoN. 300 points. That is how I would run them, with an optional rhino depending on the list. yes , but the same points buy you what 7-8 terminators with plasma ? even when not infiltrating the possessed arent that much faster with a rhino , because of the 1 turn down time on getting out and charging and that is all they do . they just do melee . the terminators do melee and shoting , yes they arent 5th ed paladins ,but non of our elites are. I would rather have a unit with utility , then a unit that can kill meq and is at the mercy of 2 random rolls[powers and charge range , even if they are made with a re-roll]. Seems like you guys want to be both competitive and have a lot of interesting builds without having to use Allies yep after 5 years of gav dex , that is what people want . specialy when there are dex who play mono builds[you mention them yourself , demons, gk, necron and SW being close to it , but much better with IG ally] . I have never met a man who would said he is satisfied with stuff he has , people always want more . The question is , is what chaos got for 6th ed the norm of what others will get in 6th ed[one powerful build to play with , with options to get better through ally] , then god help GW and this forum section if next 2-3 dex are not the same . off topic . Man did BA age bad or what. I had huge respect for BA players in the 5th , contrary to what some people may have though about them , they were a very hard army to play at top level . Am realy sorry for them right now . Each time I see a BA list , I would like to make it out of 3 different dexs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I would rather have a unit with utility , then a unit that can kill meq and is at the mercy of 2 random rolls[powers and charge range , even if they are made with a re-roll]. Oh yeah me too, but they are really just different units. Terminators arent viable at all as an assault unit, possessed kind of are because of fleet and fearless. off topic . Man did BA age bad or what. I had huge respect for BA players in the 5th , contrary to what some people may have though about them , they were a very hard army to play at top level . Am realy sorry for them right now . Each time I see a BA list , I would like to make it out of 3 different dexs. Ye, it kinda sucks. Only reason left for me to play them are Mephiston, Attack Bikes and the Stormraven, which I can just ally to Grey Knights instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empchildrenbob Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 300 points buys you 70 zombies, just sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 300 points buys you 70 zombies, just sayin. Your point is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
empchildrenbob Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Better use of 300 points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snejk Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I have to say that I'm pretty satisfied with the new codex. Cheap Lords and Sorcs. I'm happy that the CSM can buy diffrent marks instead of an Icon as in the last codex. So they keep their mark even if an icon bearer dies. I'm pretty happy about the Icons. Not so happy that the Lord's personal icons disappeared, makin deep strike more dangerous. I'm happy about the new models/units, which make up for some nice conversions, and gives us something the loyalists don't have. I'm happy we have cheap cultists. If nothing else so for the fluff and to use as meat shields. I'm happy that bikes seem viable, and that I got three of them in the DV box. I'm less happy that Chosen lost their infiltrate, but I can live with it. I'm less happy with how the Helldrake looks. But it can be remodeled into pure awesome, so I can live with that as well. And I like the layout of the new dex as well. It's a joy to look in. But i miss the short stories like the one on pg. 229 in the big rulebook. "For the Emperor!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Better use of 300 points 1. Irrelevant. 2. Wrong. 3. Pointless. Maybe give your keyboard to someone who can use it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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