What is going on in Ultramar?

[Max Power]

Hey all,

 

I've become totally obsessed with the Horus Heresy era, particularly the Ultramarines. After reading The Primarchs and Fear to Tread, I got to thinking about what is going on in Ultramar post the events in Know No Fear.

 

 

At the end of the Dark Angels story in The Primarchs, the Lion ends up involved with Guilliman, as well as Sanguinius at the end of Fear to Tread.

 

 

Does anyone have any ideas? I apologize if this has been discussed already, my search skills turned up nothing. I'm hoping Betrayer sheds a little light on what's going on beyond the XIII legion.

 

Thanks!

 

Max

[Augustus]

At the end of Savage Weapons the Lion says he has made contact with several of his brothers. Dorn and Russ were mentioned as not having made contact with. He says he has made contact with the XIII legion and "It seems Horus is not the only one who thinks he is heir to an Empire"

 

I think most people, including myself. thought the Big Blue Boss was setting himself up as Emperor version 2.0; however, the cover of Unremembered Empire seems to suggests that that comment was directed to Sanguinius.

[Kol Saresk]

Well in The Lion, the Lion honestly does believe Gulliman is giving up on the Emperor. Whether or not that is true is still up in the air. Right now, it just seems that Gulliman is consolidating. The World Eaters and Word Bearers were putting the outer edges of Ultramar to the flame in order to keep the XIII busy until it was too late and after the events in Betrayer, it's too late. There is now a warp storm that surrounds Ultramar and isolates it from Terra with the only path in or out known to Lorgar. Obviously it doesn't outlast the Heresy but apparently it will keep the Ultramarines out of the game for now.

[Felix Antipodes]

Well in The Lion, the Lion honestly does believe Gulliman is giving up on the Emperor. Whether or not that is true is still up in the air. Right now, it just seems that Gulliman is consolidating. The World Eaters and Word Bearers were putting the outer edges of Ultramar to the flame in order to keep the XIII busy until it was too late and after the events in Betrayer, it's too late. There is now a warp storm that surrounds Ultramar and isolates it from Terra with the only path in or out known to Lorgar. Obviously it doesn't outlast the Heresy but apparently it will keep the Ultramarines out of the game for now.

 

Brother Kol has it summed up for now. Just going by the cov of the upcoming Unremembered Empire, I agree the the Lion is referring to Gulliman; Sanguinius doesn't look too happy about the proceedings and appears to have been sweet talked by his brother into doing it. After all, many of the books have stated that Sanguinius is the best regarded primarch after Horus. It is a pretty savvy move by Gulliman really.

 

Slightly off topic: does anyone else think that the largest legion with the most numerous worlds to back it up, and with a support system like Armatura, and led by the greatest tactical genius ever, was bested too easily even allowing for the Pearl Harbour lie surprise of it all? No, I am not a smurf player ^_^

[RapatoR]

Well in The Lion, the Lion honestly does believe Gulliman is giving up on the Emperor. Whether or not that is true is still up in the air. Right now, it just seems that Gulliman is consolidating. The World Eaters and Word Bearers were putting the outer edges of Ultramar to the flame in order to keep the XIII busy until it was too late and after the events in Betrayer, it's too late. There is now a warp storm that surrounds Ultramar and isolates it from Terra with the only path in or out known to Lorgar. Obviously it doesn't outlast the Heresy but apparently it will keep the Ultramarines out of the game for now.

 

Brother Kol has it summed up for now. Just going by the cov of the upcoming Unremembered Empire, I agree the the Lion is referring to Gulliman; Sanguinius doesn't look too happy about the proceedings and appears to have been sweet talked by his brother into doing it. After all, many of the books have stated that Sanguinius is the best regarded primarch after Horus. It is a pretty savvy move by Gulliman really.

 

Slightly off topic: does anyone else think that the largest legion with the most numerous worlds to back it up, and with a support system like Armatura, and led by the greatest tactical genius ever, was bested too easily even allowing for the Pearl Harbour lie surprise of it all? No, I am not a smurf player :tu:

There is plot summary of UE in another tread.

 

I think not. If another Legion was at their place, they would not survived this.

[Nehekhare]

the greatest tactical genius ever

Horus? :)

[A D-B]

Slightly off topic: does anyone else think that the largest legion with the most numerous worlds to back it up, and with a support system like Armatura, and led by the greatest tactical genius ever, was bested too easily even allowing for the Pearl Harbour lie surprise of it all? No, I am not a smurf player :)

 

In my totally personal opinion, if it had been any Legion but the Ultramarines suffering all of this, they'd be gacked and out for the count. But the Ultramarines weather the storm, and come out of it fighting.

 

When I think of the Ultramarines, I think of an interview with Nathan Fillion, when he says Captain Malcolm Reynolds (of Firefly fame) has one overarching drive, "and it's just... to continue. No matter what."

 

That's the Ultramarines to me. No matter what you throw at them. No matter that you rain fire on their worlds. No matter how you desecrate their flesh. No matter what you say to them, do to them, or what pain you cause them. They are the exemplars of what it means to be a Space Marine. They are the pattern of perfect, efficient warfare. They are the Emperor's ideals for the Legiones Astartes given form. They are the ones that didn't want to put their own spin on it, and chose not to colour outside the lines. They took the intention of what a Legion should be, and worked to those goals.

 

It doesn't make them better, or righter, or cooler, just as no Legion is "better", "righter", or "cooler". Similarly, it doesn't make them more boring, or less imaginative, because no Legion is objectively "boring" or "less imaginative" (some do, however, have less obvious personalities compared to others). Every Legion comes from its own distinctive culture - it just so happens that the XIII's culture is to train to understand every aspect of war. They can fight hot-blooded, like any Legion, but they also have the training and tactical foresight to plan cold-blooded. It gives them a furiously Roman flavour, that when you screw with them, you're crossing the motherfreaking Rubicon. If you face the XIII, the die is bloody well cast. Because they will come. They will continue, no matter what.

 

Personal perspective, natch.

[Visitor13]

"and it's just... to continue. No matter what."

 

No matter what you throw at them. No matter that you rain fire on their worlds. No matter how you desecrate their flesh. No matter what you say to them, do to them, or what pain you cause them.

 

Death Guard?

World Eaters?

Iron Hands?

Iron Warriors?

[A D-B]

"and it's just... to continue. No matter what."

 

No matter what you throw at them. No matter that you rain fire on their worlds. No matter how you desecrate their flesh. No matter what you say to them, do to them, or what pain you cause them.

 

Death Guard?

World Eaters?

Iron Hands?

Iron Warriors?

 

Different reasons. Different personalities. Different specialties and themes.

 

Shades of grey. Nuance.

[Visitor13]

Forgot the Imperial Fists.

[A D-B]

Forgot the Imperial Fists.

 

Edit them in - the answer's still the same. It's the flavour of why someone does something that matters, when you're dealing with overlapping themes. That's long been true of the Legions.

 

In that example, the other Legions would endure the same thing, for different reasons. The World Eaters will do it because they're lost to the Nails, or desensitised, or experiencing the moment in an altered brain-state. The Death Guard will do it better in certain theatres of war, or because they feel less pain, or because their cultural heritage promotes endurance above all else. The Iron Hands and Iron Warriors have the advantage of bionics, and in the case of the latter, a churlish/admirable stubbornness. The Imperial Fists would arguably endure past the point they should, in the name of their Legion's culture, considering even that a virtue (and, narratively, it totally is).

 

All of those are the reasons they rock, too.

 

But the Ultramarines will likely be the ones that come out of it the best, because of their scale, and how they function as a Legion. That's not an insult to the others. It's just their flavour.

[Visitor13]

The others will endure it too - even the 'cowardly' (note the inverted commas) Night Lords, if you piss them off hard enough.

[Captain Idaho]

I think you are confusing organised resistance to an ever enduring fighting force, endurance to survival. Look at the Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard. Sure they all "endured" in the sense they continued to exist in name, but when you really evaluate them you realise they ceased being the same Legions after their culling at Istvaan. They really survived rather than endured.

 

And Space Marines are not invinciple or genuinely fearless. They fear different things to you and me; some fear defeat, some fear their superior's disappointment whilst others even dread the Warp-change consuming them.

 

What happened on Calth was the equivilent of Istvaan but yet the Ultramarines continue to exist as they did before and be a threat to Horus' plans.

 

...Shades of grey...

 

I fail to see the connection between E. L. James' best seller and the Heresy series? Fulgrim I suppose...

 

:P

[Max Power]

Great stuff, guys. A D-B, you've given me some serious signature material, I thank you for that. It's interesting to imagine how other legions would manage in this situation. While I agree that other legions would certainly survive, the Ultramarines endure and still come out the other side an effective fighting force. Numbers definitely have something to do with that, but legion mentality is part of that as well.

 

Visitor13 - good point there. I think when push comes to shove, almost every legion would be capable of standing their ground and seeing it through. It's a matter of how they look in the aftermath.

 

 

At the end of Fear to Tread, the Blood Angels are in Ultramar. Are they sticking around long enough to help clean out the World Eaters and Word Bearers, or are they just stopping by to say hello, and then jetting off to Terra? Thoughts?

 

[Visitor13]

What happened on Calth was the equivilent of Istvaan but yet the Ultramarines continue to exist as they did before and be a threat to Horus' plans.

 

One traitor legion vs eight. Hardly an equivalent to Istvaan.

[Kol Saresk]

Calth was just the Ultramarines versus the Word Bearers. Also, it's what happened as much as who was on what side. At istvaan III, any Astartes in the Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Sons of Horus and the World Eaters that were considered to be anything less than completely loyal to their primarchs were betrayed by their own Legion. On Istvaan V, seven Legions went to punish Horus. Three of those Legions would be betrayed by the fellow members of their task force and all three would be pushed to the brink of extinction, one a little farther than the other two with the loss of their Primarch. At Calth, the Word Bearers would betray the Ultramarines and begin the path to bring the fires of war to the 500 Worlds.

 

@Max Power:

Well at the end of Betrayer, the Word Bearers and the World Eaters were about leave Ultramar with all of the Loyalists trapped in by the Ruinstorm.

 

[Legatus]

The World Eaters tore themselves apart after the Heresy, so perhaps they are not the bestest example. Neither are the Iron Hands, who were effectively gutted after Istvaan V. The other Legions never really faced such a tragedy, but about the Iron Warriors we merely know that they are extremely hard to drive off. They are not neccessarily that persistent once you have taken one of their fortress worlds. The Deathguard are now pawns of Nurgle because they were faced with extinction. The Imperial Fists threw themselves into the meatgrinder, prepared to make the last sacrifice to atone for their failing to protect the Emperor.

 

All of those Legions were known to be very persistent in their own way, but you cannot really point to either of them and claim that they would have fared just like the Ultramarines when faced with a devastating blow.

[Visitor13]

Actually, the closest thing to Calth would be the Battle of the Fang, and we all know how the Wolves fared. Do not underestimate the advantage your home turf gives you. This is another thing that Loyalists at Istvaan didn't have.

[Kol Saresk]

Not true. Calth was just a big giant clusterbomb. Nobody won it and if anyone did, it would be the Word Brarers by virtue of the fact they created the Ruinstorm there. But the event itself is similar to both Istvaan events in what happened, and what happened was Betrayal. An entire species' view on the galaxy was rewritten with every one of those events. As far as I know, nothing of significance came from the Battle of the Fang. Calth proved beyond a shadow of the doubt that the Word Bearers were beyond redemption. Calth saw the beginning of the event that is likely to keep Ultramar and the XIII out of the war. Although somehow the Blood Angels have to make it to Terra. There is symbolism behind it all.

[Max Power]

I'm not looking to have this thread turn into a "which legion is better" thread. I was trying to find out if anyone had any ideas as to what significance the Blood Angels and Dark Angels have in Guilliman's post-Calth plans.

[Kol Saresk]

To be honest, I'm not sure. There's the spoiler in my earlier post but what's left to do in Ultramar after that, well I guess some Night Lords might have wandered in the events in Prince of Crows.

[Visitor13]

EDIT: I will honor Max Power's wish.

[blackoption]

You know, I think the pearl harbor comparison to the attack at calth to be quite apt. Both Horus and the Japanese Admiral Yanamoto (spelling) knew they had to deal wit the threat of the XIII/America quickly else they could prove to be an insurmountable problem. The XIII/America was caught off guard by this brazen attack and was on the defensive for the first half of the following war. It wasn't until Midway that the US finally got off the back foot. Judging from what I have heard about The WE and WB's campaign, I don't believe the Ultramarines have had their "Midway" yet. After Midway, the XIII/American Navy becomes the power to beat off the enemy and hold the region together (be it the Imperium during the scouring or the Pacific Ocean post VJ-Day).

 

Not a perfect comparison, but the connections are there.

 

As for what is going on in Ultramar: Consolidation, Reorganization, then start to a Counter Offensive. It has already been shown in other stories that small Ultramarine teams have already begun an unconventional war against Horus (the story about the Loyalist Iron Warriors come to mind). Ultramar is not out the fight yet, but I believe the Ultramarines will need assistance from the Blood Angels in order to deal with the Warpstorm around them (not sure how... but I am sure the BL is working on it.) Afterwards, we know the Blood Angels go for Terra as fast as possible. My money is that Guilliman's approach is as much as securing the regions between Ultramar and Terra (to secure his logistical chains) as his lead elements push to releave the defenders at the palace. He still has to contend with various non legion traitors and the Alpha Legion is still out there causing trouble.

 

Just my thoughts

[Marshal Rohr]

If it had been the Imperial Fists at Calth there would no longer be a VII Legion. The Iron Cage was their equivalent and it broke the legion. The Fists are best when they can plan, and a betrayal of that magnitude would have simply led to them sacrificing themselves to the last man, like at the Cage. Saying that they would endure and survive is like saying the samurai would endure against modern weapons in the 1800s. The VII has always been about not giving up even when you should, even when it's wrong to continue.

[ximenez]

They are the Emperor's ideals for the Legiones Astartes given form. They are the ones that didn't want to put their own spin on it, and chose not to colour outside the lines. They took the intention of what a Legion should be, and worked to those goals.

 

In many ways valid and true, but remember, it is not the Ultras but the Templars that are the most prominent (and only?) chapter on continual crusade, and that is as much a part of the Emperor's vision for the Legions as any thing else. The irony of the Ultramarines is that they achieved something close to perfection in their calling, more so than any others, and have flourished for it like no other First Founding chapter has, and yet they put this at the service of a status quo that represents the stagnation and slow defeat of the Emperor's work. Guilliman may have been the humblest of the Primarchs, wanting to do things the right way rather than his own way, as so many of his detractors seem to think; but it was Sigismund who kept the original flame burning bright, and who did it at the very same time the Codex Astartes and the dissolution of the original Legions was being enacted into law.

 

When are you going to write a post-Heresy era story about the interaction of Guilliman and Sigismund Aaron? It would be the best topic ever. Your whole career is leading up to it. This is why you became an author...