What is going on in Ultramar?

[Captain Idaho]

Saying you're on a crusade doesn't mean you're living the Emperor's vision. Remember Dorn, the Primarch The Templars revere so much, operated differently to the Templars, as do his Fists.

 

The Templars will get their own fluff but it won't be defining them as the Chapter all should have been...

[ShadowMaster]

They are the Emperor's ideals for the Legiones Astartes given form. They are the ones that didn't want to put their own spin on it, and chose not to colour outside the lines. They took the intention of what a Legion should be, and worked to those goals.

 

In many ways valid and true, but remember, it is not the Ultras but the Templars that are the most prominent (and only?) chapter on continual crusade, and that is as much a part of the Emperor's vision for the Legions as any thing else. The irony of the Ultramarines is that they achieved something close to perfection in their calling, more so than any others, and have flourished for it like no other First Founding chapter has, and yet they put this at the service of a status quo that represents the stagnation and slow defeat of the Emperor's work. Guilliman may have been the humblest of the Primarchs, wanting to do things the right way rather than his own way, as so many of his detractors seem to think; but it was Sigismund who kept the original flame burning bright, and who did it at the very same time the Codex Astartes and the dissolution of the original Legions was being enacted into law.

 

When are you going to write a post-Heresy era story about the interaction of Guilliman and Sigismund Aaron? It would be the best topic ever. Your whole career is leading up to it. This is why you became an author...

 

Hmm about the whole status crusade thing, Sigismund and the Templar's "Eternal Crusade" is just shaped after how they work. When it comes to building and maintaining the Imperium I don't see any legion or chapter do it as well as the UM and Roboute.

 

Have to admit that Guilliman has become a huge idol of mine :) but Sigismund on the other hand, my God, the undefeated knight, one of my biggest 40K moments ever will be when he shines during the battle of Terra. I think ABD himself did take some part in building up the reputation. Several mentions during the heresy series has been made by more than one author about Sigismund and his immense martial skills.

 

And if ABD glances over this I want to say Betrayer was awesome, best HH book yet together with The First Heretic. I love you 333

 

sorry if I got creepy

[Legatus]

Why would Guilliman talk to Sigismund? The Ultramarines Chapter operates from Macragge, while the Black Templars Chapter operates from wherever they currently are located. They might not have had any contact in the hundred years after the Heresy before Guilliman met his end. Guilliman and Dorn might have talked, though. On the account of being some of the remaining Primarchs. Or Dorn and Sigismund, on the account of Dorn being Sigismund's Primarch. I have a feeling, though, that the Imperial Fists and the Black Templars might not have had that much contact after the Heresy. Aside from sharing the same origin, they are pretty far apart ideologically.

 

Oh, and as usually when the discussion comes to Sigismund: I liked it more when he had just been a humble battle brother who had been honoured with the title "Emperor's Champion" during the Siege of Terra for his exceptional fighting abilities. Changing him to already having been the highest ranked and most decorated member of the Imperial Fists Legion throughout the Crusade makes his story much less endearing to me. Personal opinion of course. That would be as if they changed Ollanuis Pius, the Guardsman who sacrificed himself to aid the Emperor, into an immortal super being who knew about the coming events in advance and had prepared for that moment all along. Oh, wait...

[Kol Saresk]

As far as I know, the fluff about Sigismund as the Emperor's Champion is older than A D-B's writing career at Black Library. IIRC, it is virtually inherent to the Black Templars fluff. So talking about it in the series is nothing more than stating what is already there so when it happens people can't try and say that it was a sudden case of Mary Sue.

[Marshal Rohr]

Can we return to the topic of what the Ultramarines intentions were instead of Sigismund. The topic of whether or not the Templars are right has been beaten to death. Mostly by me, so I know it's good and beaten.

[Legatus]

Edit: Right, back to Ultramar.

 

In 2nd to 5th Edition lore, the Ultramarines had only learned at the very end of the Heresy about what was going on, and thus did not really participate in it. However, during teh run of 1st Edition, in the Epic Space Marine source books, the Ultramarines had been prominently featured in a lot of stories and images depicting battles during the Horus Heresy. So at some point before 2nd Edition remade the 40K lore, the Ultramarines had been assumed to have been heavily engaged in the Heresy.

While the Horus Heresy novels do change it from what we had been told from 2nd to 5th Edition, at least there is some precedent they can refer to.

 

The Ultramarines may not have to sit the next 5 years out, and instead may well be quite active over the course of the future novels.

[Kol Saresk]

Can we return to the topic of what the Ultramarines intentions were

From what I know of the current situation(all the way to the end of Betrayer), Ultramar is basically burning. At least one hundred of the five hundred worlds were destroyed to the point of no return for the sake of creating the Ruinstorm which is isolating Ultramar from Terra. It is possible that this means the entire Eastern Fringe is separated from the rest of the Galaxy or that the realm of space known as Ultramar is completely isolated much like how the Blood Angels were isolated in Signus Prime. I don't know and while I don't think I have over looked something saying that, it is possible.From there, we know that Lorgar is about to lead the World Eaters and the Word Bearers out of Ultramar through a path hidden in the Ruinstorm, leaving the Ultramarines, the Blood Angels, the Iron Hands that are currently working alongside Gulliman and the Loyalist Iron Warriors trapped in Ultramar. And possibly the Imperial Fists survivors of Phall that didn't make it back to Terra as I don't think anything has been said about where they ended up. So at the moment, Gulliman is probably consolidating his forces and get the Loyalist forces in Ultramar back on their feet. Since the Blood Angels are due an appearance Terra, we can infer that either the Loyalist Forces break through the Ruinstorm(even if it is by finding the safe path) or it is dissipated.

[KarkassBC]

I'm not so negative about some revisions/changes made in the lore regarding the Horus Heresy in the Ultramar systems.

 

It's not a complete change of previous lore but the effect of 10k years after the victory in the Siege of Terra.

 

It's not uncommon even in our history a change of historical facts made after the war by the victors.

 

For example, the Battle of Qadesh, fought between the Egyptians and the Hittites, a remarkable event in itself because was the first written peace treaty was a complete lie in the Egypt. Ramesse II came back depicting a great victory against the enemy and built many memorial stone about it, when in reality he simply saved the day but left the land to the Hittites.

For many centuries in Egypt the "real" history was a complete victory of the Pharaon.

 

Another example. In WWII the Battle of Kharkov was lost by the German Army for overpreparation. More than 6 months for staging a breakthrough in a salient in the Russian Army frontline. At the end the time for gaining strength was lost by the defensive antiarmor field works made by the Russian. If the outcome was different and at the end the German Army was successful, someone explained the strategic error as a lure to the enemy to commit more resources in the endangered position.

 

The same for the UM lore.

 

First the difference between the previous lore and KNF. Old version: WB, half Legion strong, made a surprise attack coming from the void and after an initial success, they were defeated by a huge Hit and Run tactic organised by the UM Primarch. This was the 40K version of the imperial lore while in KNF the WB were less than 1/5 than the UM (Horus requested the gathering of the entire UM Legion with an aid of the WB to crush an Ork Waagh). The WB attacked the UM inside the defensive perimeter with all the UM ships not operational. The final victory was achieved only through the actions of lower level personnel coordinating a resistance on the planet Calth and even the Primarch followed a plan organised by others. At the end his real help was to lead an assault task force inside a transmission center.

During the following years the "real" history changed step by step, finally arriving at the 40K version in which the Primarch organized the actions of every UM soldier on the system while in the reality he suffered for half the battle a very human confusion about the future actions (like Dorn in the Cage).

 

The second example, the Kharkov battle, could explain a possible mistake of Guilliman. He lost too much time gathering resources and soldiers for attacking the traitors while the enemy started to attack Terra. He wanted to achieve an optimal 3:1 attacking approach but he wasted too much time in the eyes of his brothers. So after a while Sanguinius with his BA departed, followed by WS and SW.

Imperial historian rewrote some part of the story, creating a huge warp barrier that didn't allowed the loyalists to move to Terra, while in reality was only an above the average difficult Warp travel. But the imperial historians needed to change the real history in order to avoid Guilliman put to blame for the near-death of the Emperor.

 

Sorry for this long rant.

 

P.S. I don't hate Guilliman. On the contrary I admire him in KNF because he was very real with so many doubts.

[KarkassBC]

double post

[Vesper]

I'm not so negative about some revisions/changes made in the lore regarding the Horus Heresy in the Ultramar systems.

 

While reading this, I thought about RG falling in his bathtub and dying in the process.

[Haranin]

I think you mean the Battle of Kursk; the first three Kharkov battles were victories for the Germans (1941, 1942, 1943 March); and the fourth is more commonly referred as the the Battle of Zhytomyr... as the german forces were largely diverted to other locations post Kursk, and there wasn't much fighting for the fourth battle of Kharkov. Most of the fighting was west of Kharkov when the Germans launched a failed counterattack.

[Legatus]

I'm not so negative about some revisions/changes made in the lore regarding the Horus Heresy in the Ultramar systems.

(...)

It's not uncommon even in our history a change of historical facts made after the war by the victors.

(...)

The same for the UM lore.

(...)

During the following years the "real" history changed step by step, finally arriving at the 40K version in which the Primarch organized the actions of every UM soldier on the system while in the reality he suffered for half the battle a very human confusion about the future actions (like Dorn in the Cage).

I am not a big fan of that point of view, for one simple reason: It essentially means that GW goes "Oh, by the way, that background material we have been feeding you for the past 15 years? Over and over again in successive codices and sourcebooks? That was all bullcrap, and it was really totally different! Read the REAL story now in these brand new novels!"

[DarthMarko]

I'm not so negative about some revisions/changes made in the lore regarding the Horus Heresy in the Ultramar systems.

(...)

It's not uncommon even in our history a change of historical facts made after the war by the victors.

(...)

The same for the UM lore.

(...)

During the following years the "real" history changed step by step, finally arriving at the 40K version in which the Primarch organized the actions of every UM soldier on the system while in the reality he suffered for half the battle a very human confusion about the future actions (like Dorn in the Cage).

I am not a big fan of that point of view, for one simple reason: It essentially means that GW goes "Oh, by the way, that background material we have been feeding you for the past 15 years? Over and over again in successive codices and sourcebooks? That was all bullcrap, and it was really totally different! Read the REAL story now in these brand new novels!"

AMEN!!! I fell in love in the established fluff - not in some rewritten author's bias or soap opera, and some of my friends already given up from 40k when they saw what is HH becoming...

P.S. Author's say that "they are only filling the gaps" ...LOL....but ok

[Kol Saresk]

I'm not so negative about some revisions/changes made in the lore regarding the Horus Heresy in the Ultramar systems.

(...)

It's not uncommon even in our history a change of historical facts made after the war by the victors.

(...)

The same for the UM lore.

(...)

During the following years the "real" history changed step by step, finally arriving at the 40K version in which the Primarch organized the actions of every UM soldier on the system while in the reality he suffered for half the battle a very human confusion about the future actions (like Dorn in the Cage).

I am not a big fan of that point of view, for one simple reason: It essentially means that GW goes "Oh, by the way, that background material we have been feeding you for the past 15 years? Over and over again in successive codices and sourcebooks? That was all bullcrap, and it was really totally different! Read the REAL story now in these brand new novels!"

Except they have done things like these before and it since it has their blessing, it's basically what they are doing now.

[Marshal Rohr]

It's part of the core of the entertainment industry to go back and rebuild older material.

[Kol Saresk]

It's part of the core of the entertainment industry to go back and rebuild older material.

Or to even reboot it. Just look at Marvel and DC. Although those guys made it even harder by saying everything is canon and conflicts are made because they are all parallel worlds. :) And we thought GW was bad with just a loose canon theory

[Legatus]

Then re-tell the story. In the next Codex. I would not like it, but at least it would be honest and not dismissive of the investments the players have made into previous background material.

 

Saying that "the 40K sourcebooks have allways just told a biased and incorrect version of the story, and now we finally get a first hand account and learn what REALLY happened" makes it sound like all the sourcebooks that have been published from 2nd to 5th Edition have intentionally lied to us. They were never meant to tell the accurate background, but now we are finally told. I don't think that is a particularly good way to handle the situation. But to be fair, I don't think that is what GW is telling us. As far as they are concerned, they are probably just rewriting the background material, but 40K sourcebooks have such a long development and release schedule that we will not see the changes in the actual sourcebooks for a while. It is not that the 40K sourcebooks are meant to present an ignorant and biased version of the background, it is just that the sourcebooks have not caught up to the rewritten Black Library background.

 

However, untill the Warhammer 40K sourcebooks are updated, as far as the game universe is concerned, the 5th Edition or earlier sources are still "correct".

[Epistolary Exander]

I'm not so negative about some revisions/changes made in the lore regarding the Horus Heresy in the Ultramar systems.

 

While reading this, I thought about RG falling in his bathtub and dying in the process.

 

More likely Sanguinius drained Guilliman dry, it would be fitting when you crown a king of Vampires. ;).

 

Back on topic does anyone think Guilliman will re-introduce the Librarians in his little fiefdom? Afterall he wasnt too impressed with how Nikkaea Eddict shot his forces in the foot in Know No Fear and with BA turning up after using their own Librarians he might not have a choice but to. In addition to this the Iron Hands from The Lion would also have reported how the DA used their own Libbies against them & the Typhon if they made it through the ruinstorm. Guilliman seems pragmatic enough to see how the Nikkaea Eddict is relatively pointlss in their current situation.

[eyeslikethunder]

Not true. Calth was just a big giant clusterbomb. Nobody won it and if anyone did, it would be the Word Brarers by virtue of the fact they created the Ruinstorm there. But the event itself is similar to both Istvaan events in what happened, and what happened was Betrayal. An entire species' view on the galaxy was rewritten with every one of those events. As far as I know, nothing of significance came from the Battle of the Fang. Calth proved beyond a shadow of the doubt that the Word Bearers were beyond redemption. Calth saw the beginning of the event that is likely to keep Ultramar and the XIII out of the war. Although somehow the Blood Angels have to make it to Terra. There is symbolism behind it all.

Just to clarify the battle of the fang ended the thousand sons legion as an effective /significant military force according to the book leaving them as tomb robbers and denied the wolves the ability to have successors both are pretty significant

[KarkassBC]

Not true. Calth was just a big giant clusterbomb. Nobody won it and if anyone did, it would be the Word Brarers by virtue of the fact they created the Ruinstorm there. But the event itself is similar to both Istvaan events in what happened, and what happened was Betrayal. An entire species' view on the galaxy was rewritten with every one of those events. As far as I know, nothing of significance came from the Battle of the Fang. Calth proved beyond a shadow of the doubt that the Word Bearers were beyond redemption. Calth saw the beginning of the event that is likely to keep Ultramar and the XIII out of the war. Although somehow the Blood Angels have to make it to Terra. There is symbolism behind it all.

Just to clarify the battle of the fang ended the thousand sons as an effective military force

 

The Legion was already lost after Prospero

 

They lose only the human allies and after the Fang the Legion didn't employ anymore human contingents.

 

But I'm not sure if the previous writer thought about Calth and wrote Fang.

[Epistolary Exander]

The TS were no longer a cohesive fighting force under the centralised command of Magnus after the Battle of Fang, but then again it could be argued that happened already with Magnus scattering his legion and fleet in A Thousand Sons and when he banished about 400 of his own sons when he kicked out Ahriman from the Planet of Sorcerers. They split off into independent warbands after the Battle of the Fang, operating like any other chaos warband. Imperial history has more than sufficient examples on how effective chaos warbands are, so I wouldnt say the legion is not an effective fighting force at all.

[hendrik]

edit* the thousand sons legion command structure was effectivly broken after the battle of the fang. Magnus lost control over what little remained of his legion as it split off into little warbands, he lost all his remaining non-astartes legion resources. and last but not least, magnus had his ass handed over to him by "mere" astartes. An event that had never happened to him before and surely played a big role in some of his legionaires turning away from him? I actually can't recall any other battles that feature magnus fully summoned (although there have been a plentora of tries). the wolves on their part lost an essential knwoledge of the canis helix, and with it any chance of having succesor chapters, as well as almost an entire great company, not to mention the amount of kaerl forces

[Kol Saresk]

Well to be honest, I don't think anyone ever expected Magnus to be much in martial warfare.

[Epistolary Exander]

Magnus more than held his own against Russ until Russ's pets wolves intervened in the fight.

 

In relation to when Harek Ironhelm was pounding Magnus repeatedly, that was after Magnus had been weakened significantly fighting Bjorn, about a half dozen other dreadnoughts, a Wolf Priest, 1 or 2 Rune Priests, 1 Wolf Lord, dozens of other SW and fell from the top of the Fang down into the valley below and with Magnus basically giving himself upto hopelessness considering the damage the return of the SW had done to his plan. After Magnus got over that he effortless killed Harek Ironhelm.

[Kol Saresk]

Magnus' arm was already broken by the time the wolves joined in and all they did was pin his legs long enough for him to break the black one's skull and telekinetically throw the white over yonder the rolling tide of Wolves. Meanwhile all he had done to Russ is stab him in the chest with a sword "made from pure thought." Of course, after that the two were "locked in battle" until a black light erupted, Russ cried out in pain, stabbed Magnus in the eye(that seems to be a recurring theme) and then he broke Magnus' back across his knee. Most of Magnus' fight against Russ came from using psychic powers. So martial fighting, or more specifically, physical fighting is not his strong suit.

 

Although, if that is what really happened in Battle of the Fang, then it is definitely a different story from "he was ganged up on by lonely Space Wolves."