Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Frankly, as a Wolf, i consider the Battle of the Fang a Wolf loss for the Wolves. we lost our ability to return to legion size. we lost our Great Wolf, Wolf Lord, nearly a entire Great Company, and Russ alone knows how many Fenrisians. we almost lost Bjorn the Fell-Handed the T-Sons lost conscripted humans, sorcerers, and some of their rubic marines. the sorcerers they lost are noted in the book as being second rate compared to Ahriman's cabal, and the Ragnar series shows that Rubic Marines can be returned to the mortal realms. the only real loss was their mechanicum support. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3274862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Magnus more than held his own against Russ until Russ's pets wolves intervened in the fight. In relation to when Harek Ironhelm was pounding Magnus repeatedly, that was after Magnus had been weakened significantly fighting Bjorn, about a half dozen other dreadnoughts, a Wolf Priest, 1 or 2 Rune Priests, 1 Wolf Lord, dozens of other SW and fell from the top of the Fang down into the valley below and with Magnus basically giving himself upto hopelessness considering the damage the return of the SW had done to his plan. After Magnus got over that he effortless killed Harek Ironhelm. I'm not saying the wolves had an easy fight, or that defeating him didn't come at a high price. I'm just saying that, for the first time that magnus returns in physical form to the universe he got beaten up by "mere" astartes, something that some might have believed to be impossible, "mere" astartes defeating a primarch in combat (be it martial, psychic or even in rock-paper-scissor) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3274952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I'm not saying the wolves had an easy fight, or that defeating him didn't come at a high price. I'm just saying that, for the first time that magnus returns in physical form to the universe he got beaten up by "mere" astartes, something that some might have believed to be impossible, "mere" astartes defeating a primarch in combat (be it martial, psychic or even in rock-paper-scissor) Dorn was killed by hundreds of Astartes ganging up on him. It happens. Besides it was a half assed manifestation of Magnus due to limitations of being a daemon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3274968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I'm not saying the wolves had an easy fight, or that defeating him didn't come at a high price. I'm just saying that, for the first time that magnus returns in physical form to the universe he got beaten up by "mere" astartes, something that some might have believed to be impossible, "mere" astartes defeating a primarch in combat (be it martial, psychic or even in rock-paper-scissor) Dorn was killed by hundreds of Astartes ganging up on him. It happens. Besides it was a half assed manifestation of Magnus due to limitations of being a daemon. +Fulgrim was almost sniped in "the angel exterminatus", and Kor Phaeron almost ended Guiliman..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3275037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epistolary Exander Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Magnus' arm was already broken by the time the wolves joined in and all they did was pin his legs long enough for him to break the black one's skull and telekinetically throw the white over yonder the rolling tide of Wolves. Meanwhile all he had done to Russ is stab him in the chest with a sword "made from pure thought." Of course, after that the two were "locked in battle" until a black light erupted, Russ cried out in pain, stabbed Magnus in the eye(that seems to be a recurring theme) and then he broke Magnus' back across his knee. Most of Magnus' fight against Russ came from using psychic powers. So martial fighting, or more specifically, physical fighting is not his strong suit. Although, if that is what really happened in Battle of the Fang, then it is definitely a different story from "he was ganged up on by lonely Space Wolves." Surely Magnus was just improvising, using whatever weapons he had at his disposal? Like when Russ's wolves intervened in the fight between Magnus and Russ. The SW also lost the orbital defences above Fenris and some of their fleet, with the TS also loosing some fleet elements aswel. The TS naval losses were probaably more significant due to their likely diffleculties acquiring replacement vessels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3275068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMaster Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I'm not saying the wolves had an easy fight, or that defeating him didn't come at a high price. I'm just saying that, for the first time that magnus returns in physical form to the universe he got beaten up by "mere" astartes, something that some might have believed to be impossible, "mere" astartes defeating a primarch in combat (be it martial, psychic or even in rock-paper-scissor) Dorn was killed by hundreds of Astartes ganging up on him. It happens. Besides it was a half assed manifestation of Magnus due to limitations of being a daemon. source? or lie? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3275127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Dorn was killed by hundreds of Astartes ganging up on him. It happens. Besides it was a half assed manifestation of Magnus due to limitations of being a daemon. +Fulgrim was almost sniped in "the angel exterminatus", and Kor Phaeron almost ended Guiliman..... well perhaps it's my misinterpretation of magnus his doubts etc. to me it reminds me of a person who deems himself unbeatable and then suddently find out he's actually losing. kind of like some of those gorilla-like douchebags who are always bothering people, but then get their *** kicked by a guy half their size :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3275128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Let's turn the discussion back to the topic in hand please. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3275822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasphexia Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 The 500 worlds is a mini-empire within an empire, it's never really explained if it was fully annexed when the Big E came a knockin' or if it's a sort of vassal empire, but the story is playing out with Horus treating it as if it deserves its own min-heresy. We've got at least three Traitor Primarchs there at one point or another in the seven years of the war so it's definitely looking like there's an act of "containment" going on to keep it separate from linking up with the Imperium and reinforcing one another. I think Guilliman just plays the long game throughout the Heresy and is preparing to consolidate the aftermath of Horus's Rebellion Vs the Imperium, We know he's already started the Codex Astartes and has Sangy on board as a "face" of the new Imperium, and with the 500 worlds as the foundation of a rebirth and those two in charge he would be ready to hit the ground running if the worst comes to the worst and the Imperium is totally shattered. It's dispassionate logic in comparison to all the other major players, completely losing their heads chasing down old feuds, protecting the Emperor etc, but it's definitely Guilliman-Logic, protecting the whole as opposed to the individual pieces. I'm expecting to see a whole branch of other story arc's in the near future dealing with the comings and goings of Ultramar during the seven year war, completely separate from the "charge to Terra". I'd like to see the Alpha Legion in a full campaign vs the Ultramar System as a source of their infamous bad blood, because if the Alphas are essentially fighting for the extinction of the human race, then after the Heresy I can imagine Alpharius seeing Mr Big Blue as the only guy who has the ability to save it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3277357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Well according to Betrayer(if I read the passage correctly) the 500 worlds are the original Ultramar, plus a good majority of the planets in the Eastern Fringe that I guess were near the borders of the original that Gulliman apparently decided to annex and watch over while not just rebuilding them but restructuring to the point that each planet could be self-sufficient while at the same time giving to the whole with what would have been five "nexus" planets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3277374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasphexia Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Well according to Betrayer(if I read the passage correctly) the 500 worlds are the original Ultramar, plus a good majority of the planets in the Eastern Fringe that I guess were near the borders of the original that Gulliman apparently decided to annex and watch over while not just rebuilding them but restructuring to the point that each planet could be self-sufficient while at the same time giving to the whole with what would have been five "nexus" planets. Do we know what size Ultramar was at the time of Guilliman meeting the Emperor, and how much was added to it between the meeting and the Heresy? I'd like to see how much of a power-base he was allowed to consume after it was made clear he was adding to the Imperium and not Ultramar directly after they met. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3277388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 According to the 2nd and 5th Edition Codex Ultramar always consisted of the same eight (nine until Prandium was eaten by Tyranids) worlds close to Macragge. Since that has been dismissed by the Horus Heresy novels, it could be anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3277402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Legatus, what does "Roman Empire" mean? It means Empire of Rome, right? Something just hit me right now. The 500 worlds are never called Ultramar. They are called the Realm of Ultramar or the 500 worlds of Ultramar. So wouldn't it be logically plausible that those nine worlds are Ultramar while the 500 worlds are simply the realm that they watch over? Or is that too much heretical thought because GW is "canon" in a non-canonical setting and GW hasn't claimed it to be so? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3277445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 That would make sense if the space between the 8 systems wasn't larger than the Gothic, Scarus, and Caliban sectors combined. It isn't logical that only 8-9 planets exist in such a large amount of space. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3277448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 But BL isn't charge of maps so wouldn't that be the fault of whoever made the maps? And if that's the case, how could they be "near" Macragge? I mean, let's look at it. They are close enough to be "Ultramar" but far enough apart that Hive Fleet Behemoth only has a relative handful in its path? And isn't that bit published by GW? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3277455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 You know, if the Horus Heresy novels were just going to regurgitate verbatim the happenings in the Codexes and Collected Visions, no changes, no unexpected revelations, no deep dark secrets uncovered, what, pray tell, is the point of buying them AND said Codexes? The Heresy novels get the "real" story of the Heresy for the same reason the rules and points costs of tabletop Space Wolves are in Codex: Space Wolves, not Prospero Burns or Ragnar's Claw: the Powers That Be intend for you to open your wallet and purchase Codexes and Novels alike for the "full 40k experience". Re: Ultramar Honestly, Guilliman's plan for assembling resources and protecting the wider Imperium seems more sensible than Dorm digging in at Terra. Dorn's reasoning, as laid out in "The Lightning Tower" by Dan Abnett, is that "Horus is still Horus. The tip of the spear to the enemy's throat...he will assault Terra." Never mind what Isstvan proved about Rogal's ability to predict Horus. Course, it turned out Dorn was right and Rob was wrong in this particular instance, but still. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3277478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 You know, if the Horus Heresy novels were just going to regurgitate verbatim the happenings in the Codexes and Collected Visions, no changes, no unexpected revelations, no deep dark secrets uncovered, what, pray tell, is the point of buying them AND said Codexes?For the colorful pictures?The Heresy novels get the "real" story of the Heresy for the same reason the rules and points costs of tabletop Space Wolves are in Codex: Space Wolves, not Prospero Burns or Ragnar's Claw: the Powers That Be intend for you to open your wallet and purchase Codexes and Novels alike for the "full 40k experience". But that just reeks of capitalism and everyone knows that GW would never do anything for profit so they can pay their bills and put food on their table and somehow keep WHF, 40k and Hobbit: The Tabletop Experience pushing onward while continuing to make three different types of material minis as well as paints and supplies. :cuss Re: UltramarHonestly, Guilliman's plan for assembling resources and protecting the wider Imperium seems more sensible than Dorm digging in at Terra. Dorn's reasoning, as laid out in "The Lightning Tower" by Dan Abnett, is that "Horus is still Horus. The tip of the spear to the enemy's throat...he will assault Terra." Never mind what Isstvan proved about Rogal's ability to predict Horus. True.Course, it turned out Dorn was right and Rob was wrong in this particular instance, but still. Ironically. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3277490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I am intrigued to see if the Rob makes a wrong decision so so does not get to earth in time or wether he did not have an option to follow/go with sanginius to earth Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3277676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 That would make sense if the space between the 8 systems wasn't larger than the Gothic, Scarus, and Caliban sectors combined. It isn't logical that only 8-9 planets exist in such a large amount of space. Its not that 8 planets exist, its that 8 inhabitable planets exist. The rest could be trashed, or assigned elsewhere. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268720-what-is-going-on-in-ultramar/page/3/#findComment-3277736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.