Are Iron Hands the Fall Guys?

[Emperor's Furor]

Basically everything that can go wrong, goes wrong for them, throughout the heresy novels and the general lore as a whole. What goes into the Heresy is a pretty messed up Legion already, what comes out is an even worse legion and then chapter and from then on nothing but bad happens for them. I'm almost beginning to think they are a "cursed" legion in same vein as the "Cursed Foundings".

[Visitor13]

I'd say the Blood Angels are the Fall Guys, what with all their curses. The Hands are nasty, nasty folks, and they've seen some tough times since the Heresy (the Moirae schism), but on the whole they seem to be in decent shape.

[Emperor's Furor]

I dunno, I've not seen a Iron Hands victory throughout the entire HH series so far, my favourite IH got killed by literally being stabbed in the back after nearly killing Little Horus and every book I've read about them since has shown them to be deteriorating into almost mindless cyborgs which are also incompetent. Blood Angels on the other hand, had the victory at Signus, and the Emperor's Palace and have done lots of great things since, such as Armageddon, where as the Iron Hands have had nothing positive about them, if anything they've had more problems such as the schism you mentioned.

[Visitor13]

They've had a few victories, Contqual probably being the most notable, but also some against xenos and rebels. Also Medusa was invaded by Chaos twice (by the Iron Warriors and Traitor Guard), and the Hands triumphed both times.

 

As for the Heresy, there can't really be any decisive Loyalist victories until Terra, phyrric ones at best.

[Legatus]

Hm, the three "dark" loyal Legions (DA, IH, RG), as I call them, all had it pretty rough. They all suffered tragic losses, and are still suffering from the consequences ten thousand years later. Though the Dark Angels have managed to get back up pretty well. But they are still entangled in their shameful past.

The three "august" Legions (BA, IF, UM) took some hits but managed to get back up pretty quickly, and are still among the most honoured Chapters to this day. The three "wild" Legions (Sal, SW, WS) may have taken some hits, but they just took it in their stride and carried on.

[Visitor13]

FWIW, the Hands will feature in the next HH Forgeworld book, so it's pretty much guaranteed they'll get a slew of pre-Heresy victories.

[BassWave]

I agree that the IH had a tough time in the heresy, however they have been very successful in the current time lline. The schism wasn't even that bad for the iron hands. All it did was give birth to another strong and loyal chapter, the sons of medusa. In the current time line, it seems the imperial fists had taken the title of "fall guy" as it seems their companies keep getting nearly wiped to a man.

Edit: Still suffering? We recovered just fine. We are at full chapter strength with more equipment than we need. Yes that means terminator armor too. We have about 10 suits for every company. With ten companies, that gives us 100 suits, the average for most chapters. And no we do not just have 7 dreadnoughts. Clan Raukaan alone has around 6. We even have more successors than the space wolves and the salamanders combined. Mean while, the blood angels are still suffering from the heresy at a genetic level to the point of having their gene seed deteriorate, not to mention how a large portion of their members turn into raving lunatics.

The only things that changed for Iron Hands was our organization, and the people we hate.

[Visitor13]

Good point. Other than the second siege of the Emp's palace I can't think of a major victory by post-Heresy IFs.

[Emperor's Furor]

Yeah, I agree Imperial Fists have taken a battering as well, but their character has remained intact, the Iron Hands though seem to be falling to pieces.

[Kol Saresk]

Basically everything that can go wrong, goes wrong for them, throughout the heresy novels and the general lore as a whole. What goes into the Heresy is a pretty messed up Legion already, what comes out is an even worse legion and then chapter and from then on nothing but bad happens for them. I'm almost beginning to think they are a "cursed" legion in same vein as the "Cursed Foundings".

It's kind of a yes and no. They were pretty much destined to be screwed from the beginning, but I believe that blow has been somewhat softened in that while they lost their Primarch, they are the only victim of the Dropsite Massacre that came out near full Legion strength. The problem is what happened to the Legion after that. The Primarch is dead, their veterans were almost wiped out to man so I'm guessing that the hierarchy was destroyed and now their problem is that either no one can decide who should be in charge or no one wants to be in charge so the Legion has "gone its separate ways" as shown with one Iron Hand contingent working for Gulliman in The Lion, another working alongside the White Scars in Little Horus and another performing Black Ops raids on whatever traitor forces they can find in Kryptos and Angel Exterminatus. Also, the third group is still alive and kicking so expect more from them. :lol:

 

But that is basically the Iron Hands boat. In contrast, I would say the Salamanders have it worse. They apparently don't even know if their Primarch is alive. And unlike the Iron Hands, the majority of their Legion was present, accounted for and destroyed at Istvaan V and that is something they have to deal with. At least the Iron Hands are going through a "As long as I can feel pain I know I'm alive" sort of phase after knowing that they have lost their Primarch. The X is already on the road to recovery. Not so much for the Sons of Vulkan.

 

More or less, it seems to be coming down to perspective. But I think the Iron Hands are being used as the "fall boys" because out of all of the "decimated Legions" they still come out relatively on top so they're like the main character in an old cartoon, no matter what happens they will still be around in 40k. They might be the same, but they will be there so they can take anything anyone can throw at them.

 

What we are seeing is the "butterfly forming in the cocoon." We are seeing the Legiont hat will become the 40k Iron Hands, Sons of Medusa and other X Legion Successors taking shape. And that is what the Heresy essentially is, the transition from the Great Crusade to the Foundation of the Grimdark 40K.

[Visitor13]

Yeah, I agree Imperial Fists have taken a battering as well, but their character has remained intact, the Iron Hands though seem to be falling to pieces.

 

Don't worry, knowing them they're only falling to pieces so that they can replace those pieces with better ones later.

[Emperor's Furor]

See, I don't get the feeling that they are taking what ever can be thrown at them, the most recent short stories and books that have included have them falling deeper and deeper into removal of anything biological, including their moral senses and two short stories in particularly made them look absolutely stupid, as they wade through a war zone to abduct one menial so they could turn him into a servitor completely ignoring the evidence that the Dark Angels were responsible for it as they were hunting for a Fallen, this servitor goes on to properly screw up. At this stage even necrons appear to be more human like than Iron Hands.

 

Edit: It's even rumoured a successor chapter, the Brazen Claws, have turned renegade, according to Phalanx I think.

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm, I don't recall a short story about hunting for a menial. But the problem is, that is what the 40k Iron hands are. Marines who seek perfection in adamantium and steel of flesh and blood.

[Visitor13]

Who wrote these two stories?

 

As for the Brazen Claws, well they did think it was a good idea to crusade in the Eye of Terror.

[Emperor's Furor]

Hmm, I don't recall a short story about hunting for a menial. But the problem is, that is what the 40k Iron hands are. Marines who seek perfection in adamantium and steel of flesh and blood.

 

It's in the most recent Games day anthology : http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Games_Day_...13#.UN83iW-Wbfc

[Visitor13]

Aww man, Matthew Farrer? I expected better of him :D

 

EDIT: And Anthony Reynolds? Ouch.

[Emperor's Furor]

Who wrote these two stories?

 

As for the Brazen Claws, well they did think it was a good idea to crusade in the Eye of Terror.

 

The Blessing of Iron

by Anthony Reynolds

Battle-Brother Dolmech protects an Adeptus Mechanicus functionary on a rebel-held world. But what do the Iron Hands want with Beneficiari Armicus, and who else is hunting him?

 

The Memory of Flesh

by Matthew Farrer

Warring with deadly aliens, the Iron Hands are plagued by equipment malfunctions. They are the masters of the machine, but now their technology seems to have a mind of its own...

[Kol Saresk]

If they are in the Game Day Anthology, that might explain why I haven't read or heard of them.

[Emperor's Furor]

If they are in the Game Day Anthology, that might explain why I haven't read or heard of them.

 

It honestly makes the way they operate seem absolutely stupid and inept, the way they act is kind of like the lengths in which a tech priest would go to recover a STC except this is just a guy whose good at running a part of a factory purely so they can turn him into a servitor.

[Kol Saresk]

Well they are supposed to have strong ties with the Mechanicum. A Chapter that uses bionics and has strong ties with the Mechanicum, well some bleed through is to be expected. Although IIRC, the "less and less human" began with Wrath of Iron.

[Ju'kosian]

Good point. Other than the second siege of the Emp's palace I can't think of a major victory by post-Heresy IFs.

 

Can't think of any major victory for the Raven Guard as well, it's also just because the IH aren't covered that much in novels as other legions. ( Ultramarines for example )

[Legatus]

I think the Imperial Fists had fought against Goge Vandire's rebellion that had threatened to split the Imperium, and had besieged the Ecclesiarch's palace on Terra. They had also been the poster Chapter for the 'Epic 40,000' game, but I am not sure whether that was based on any particular campaign.

 

Edit: The Imperial Fists are also one of the most renown Chapters in general, so they would have fought in a lot of important campaigns. We have just never been given a lot of specific examples.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The thing about the Iron Hands and what you call their stupidity is simply a function of their tactics and mindset. They rely on brute force in most cases in order to achieve victory. They are capable of stealth -- see Kryptos and Angel Exterminatus -- and they are capable of moving quickly -- see Wrath of Iron -- but neither are their preferred tactics. The fact that they basically ignore the majority of the Codex Astartes in terms of its organizational precepts should give you an idea of what they likely think of its tactical recommendations.

[Emperor's Furor]

It's not just tactics though it's the fact they bypass even thinking about why Dark Angels are there, they simply ignore it not even considering why they are there, that's ineptitude.

[Kol Saresk]

The Dark Angels are Space Marines. They're supposed to be able to do whatever job they have to do. Why worry about the "why".