Emperor's Furor Posted December 29, 2012 Author Share Posted December 29, 2012 Because last time they didn't worry about the why, their Primarch lost his head. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3273705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Not entirely true. That was when they didn't worry about the "how" and decided to fight four Legions with only 1,000 Veterans and a Primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3273710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 First: The Hands might seem to have a rough time of it in the background but they are very much proponents of what doesnt completely wipe out the Legion/Chapter makes you stronger. This includes the death of their Primarch. They are not beset by the problems of other chapters who were decimated or fundamentally changed by the Heresy and still remain the strong and driven chapter/legion that they always were. Yeah, I agree Imperial Fists have taken a battering as well, but their character has remained intact, the Iron Hands though seem to be falling to pieces. I disagree with this whole-heartedly. The Fists were another chapter who was changed to the core of their doctrine and were split off in Codex (Crimson Fist, Imperial Fist) and non-Codex (Black Templar, Soul Drinker[?]) ideologies in the aftermath of the Heresy. Lets face it: Dorn went nuts. Scouring/Pain Glove, Iron Cage, the Reformation, the works. He sacrificed his Legion in order to prove a point of loyalty and honor. Sigismund gives the middle finger to everyone and rides off on Eternal Crusade. Most of the other Primarchs would not have gone to those lengths in my opinion and those that would have were on the other side of Loyalty to the Imperium. $0.2c Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3273755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epistolary Exander Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Its also about numbers, most of the legions on both sides in the heresy at this point are no where near full strength with legions on both sides of the confict loosing a coherent structure and their mass of numbers due to the horrendous nature of the heresy. Unfortunately at this point the Iron Hands probably dont have any central cohesion atm in the heresy but they are probably one the largest loyalist legions at this stage of the heresy, with only the DA (appeared to have came out of the thramas crusade relatively intact), BA (down to 100000 in FTD) & WS (Havent really fought in the heresy yet) having suffered less casaulties. The IH numbers means they should feature a lot in the rest of the heresy and their dispersed nature means the legion can get upto all sorts of cool adventures. This process kind of has to happen as the IH have a lot of marines to loose if they are to only form a few chapters after the heresy is all over ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3273825 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMaster Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 The death of Ferrus was a great tragedy not only because of the obvious reasons, he knew that his legion was sick and blamed himself for it and as soon as the heresy was over he would heal the legion (plz remind me where I read this). Ferrus did not at all share the ideology of the 40K iron hands and as Julius Kaesaron told the 40K IH - "Ferrus would weep, to see what you have become." Which I believe to be very true. Because tbh, the Iron Hands are monsters far removed from humanity even by Astartes standards. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3273938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I rea the same thing in Angel Exterminatus so there is a very high chance that is where you saw it as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3273940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Lets face it: Dorn went nuts. Scouring/Pain Glove, Iron Cage, the Reformation, the works. He sacrificed his Legion in order to prove a point of loyalty and honor. He even died. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3273991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 The death of Ferrus was a great tragedy not only because of the obvious reasons, he knew that his legion was sick and blamed himself for it and as soon as the heresy was over he would heal the legion (plz remind me where I read this). Ferrus did not at all share the ideology of the 40K iron hands and as Julius Kaesaron told the 40K IH - "Ferrus would weep, to see what you have become." Which I believe to be very true. Because tbh, the Iron Hands are monsters far removed from humanity even by Astartes standards. The scrolls are attributed to Ferrus, doesn't mean they are legit. Yes, IH is probably the most inhumane chapter ever to exist but in 40k it's not that bad of a thing. The machine is superior than flesh as it is seen in Vaylund Cal's stats. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3274039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Lets face it: Dorn went nuts. Scouring/Pain Glove, Iron Cage, the Reformation, the works. He sacrificed his Legion in order to prove a point of loyalty and honor. He even died. He died hundreds of years after he lost his :lol: . He was the last Primarch to die. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3274042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllHailTheMachine Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 This may be controversial but it in war there are losers, there are those forces which suffer a crushing blow early on and struggle to overcome it. If the writers of the HH series have any integrity (a big ask I think for some of them) the Iron Hands story should be about the long and dangerous road they walk to make themselves an effective fighting force again. This can be used to show case their dogged determination and hatred for the heretics that killed their primarch and could be interesting stories victories or not. A legion does not have to be undefeated to have interesting stories, intact the longer it takes and the more difficult it will be to rise again the more thrilling the final apotheosis should be. On another note Iron Hands can be used by the writers to foreshadow what happens when youblose your primarch. We know this happens to both blood angels and the sons of horus to disastrous effect at terra. Seeing a legion pull appart without the charismatic leadership of its godling adds a level of 'mortality' to the whole machinery of a legion and has a big effect on the decision making of the other primarches. As someone who likes a good read I would prefer the BL books have interesting story lines and the authors show integrity rather than trying to appease fans for this legion and that, or as is happening one upmanship between authors pet legions and characters. Not everyone can be winners., currently iron hands aren't doing too well. While this is unpleasant right now let's hope they do something worth while with the story to give this particular development the conclusion it deserves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3274052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 The death of Ferrus was a great tragedy not only because of the obvious reasons, he knew that his legion was sick and blamed himself for it and as soon as the heresy was over he would heal the legion (plz remind me where I read this). Ferrus did not at all share the ideology of the 40K iron hands and as Julius Kaesaron told the 40K IH - "Ferrus would weep, to see what you have become." Which I believe to be very true. Because tbh, the Iron Hands are monsters far removed from humanity even by Astartes standards. The scrolls are attributed to Ferrus, doesn't mean they are legit. Yes, IH is probably the most inhumane chapter ever to exist but in 40k it's not that bad of a thing. The machine is superior than flesh as it is seen in Vaylund Cal's stats. No, there was something in Angel Exterminatus, I think, where Ferrus Manus holds those same views. I'm not the biggest fan of the change. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3274194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 The death of Ferrus was a great tragedy not only because of the obvious reasons, he knew that his legion was sick and blamed himself for it and as soon as the heresy was over he would heal the legion (plz remind me where I read this). Ferrus did not at all share the ideology of the 40K iron hands and as Julius Kaesaron told the 40K IH - "Ferrus would weep, to see what you have become." Which I believe to be very true. Because tbh, the Iron Hands are monsters far removed from humanity even by Astartes standards. It was also in Feat of Iron from The Primarchs. Edit: Does anyone else think it's not the last we've seen of Ferrus? He keeps popping up in Fulgrim's mind, almost ghost like, and then there's his death and the whole warp like thing that came out of him, as well as in the Warmaster advent calender audio. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3274206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 No, there was something in Angel Exterminatus, I think, where Ferrus Manus holds those same views. I'm not the biggest fan of the change. You are right. Makes sense though since Ferrus got no bionic replacements of his own. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3274227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 In Angel Exterminatus it was the Raven Guard Sharrowkyn who commented right at the start that the Iron Hands might be losing it a bit with replacing parts of themselves with bionics, right before he blew a hole in Fulgrim's head B) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3274497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Fulgrim was never human so it's not inhumane to put a hole in his head. It's like shooting a deer. Except that most people eat the deer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3274523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeGuy Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 The loyalists in general are the fall guys during the Heresy, it's how it is meant to work out. With the new novels that are going to come out documenting the 7 years of heresy or whatever, I expect we will see some loyalist victories, but none of them are going to be mind blowingly awesome victories. They will most likely be victories that in themselves don't seem very significant but in the larger context of the entire war would prove vital to the victory at Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3274556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 Do you think Iron Hands will get in on the Battle of Tallarn? I think they'd be a great option to add to that battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3274564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 If they do they'll probably get mauled, so that they can't help with the Siege of Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3274571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monstra Sumus Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 If they do they'll probably get mauled, so that they can't help with the Siege of Terra. Is pretty much my view on the matter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3274578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 I seem to recall something big went down on Medusa, but I'm not sure, I think it was a tank battle like the Tallarn one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3274599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Lets face it: Dorn went nuts. Scouring/Pain Glove, Iron Cage, the Reformation, the works. He sacrificed his Legion in order to prove a point of loyalty and honor. He even died. He died hundreds of years after he lost his :rolleyes: . He was the last Primarch to die. Technically, Lion El'Johnson is still alive. ;) He and his Watchers in the Dark are doing a Rocky training montage. the Iron Hands story should be about the long and dangerous road they walk to make themselves an effective fighting force again Erm... Raven Guard anyone? Or has everybody suddenly forgotten about the Saga of the Weregeld? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3274644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvilarium Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Do you think Iron Hands will get in on the Battle of Tallarn? I think they'd be a great option to add to that battle. Battle of Tallarn (Circa 200.M31) - To this day the largest tank battle ever conducted in Imperial history remains the Battle of Tallarn. During the Horus Heresy the Iron Warriors Traitor Legion launched a massive assault on the world of Tallarn. To soften up the Loyalist resistance, the Iron Warriors virus-bombed the former agri-world, the life-eater virus turning the once lush and productive breadbasket world into a wasteland of endless desert in short order. The few surviving Imperial citizens emerged from underground shelters to oppose the Iron Warriors attack and soon reinforcements poured in from both sides. The Iron Hands and Imperial Fists Legions arrived to oppose the invasion, the hazardous environment forcing both sides to fight within the environment sealed confines of battle tanks. Both the Loyalists and Traitors committed armored fighting vehicles of all sizes and configurations in numbers never before seen in a single battle. The resulting fighting was fierce and merciless with both sides taking horrendous casualties but eventually the Iron Warriors were forced from the planet. In the aftermath of the fighting over a million wrecked tanks littered the surface of Tallarn, rusting in the endless dunes and wasting sands of the devastated planet. The ruination of Tallarn is a slight against the Imperium the Iron Hands and Imperial Fists have never forgotten. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3275385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted December 31, 2012 Author Share Posted December 31, 2012 Awesome, looking forward to that! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3275399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuclearship Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 The death of Ferrus was a great tragedy not only because of the obvious reasons, he knew that his legion was sick and blamed himself for it and as soon as the heresy was over he would heal the legion (plz remind me where I read this). Ferrus did not at all share the ideology of the 40K iron hands and as Julius Kaesaron told the 40K IH - "Ferrus would weep, to see what you have become." Which I believe to be very true. Because tbh, the Iron Hands are monsters far removed from humanity even by Astartes standards. Wow, Kaeseron is still around in 40k? Which story? :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3278169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaSY Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 The death of Ferrus was a great tragedy not only because of the obvious reasons, he knew that his legion was sick and blamed himself for it and as soon as the heresy was over he would heal the legion (plz remind me where I read this). Ferrus did not at all share the ideology of the 40K iron hands and as Julius Kaesaron told the 40K IH - "Ferrus would weep, to see what you have become." Which I believe to be very true. Because tbh, the Iron Hands are monsters far removed from humanity even by Astartes standards. Wow, Kaeseron is still around in 40k? Which story? :lol: Wrath of Iron by Chris Wraight Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268756-are-iron-hands-the-fall-guys/page/2/#findComment-3278170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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