Are Iron Hands the Fall Guys?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

tut tut tut, didnt you know ferrus's head is still alive thanks to the dragon shard and is now an artifact the iron hands want to stick in a dreadnought so he can rule them as a living machine god!

 

YOU DID KNOW?

 

of course you did :)

[KarkassBC]

tut tut tut, didnt you know ferrus's head is still alive thanks to the dragon shard and is now an artifact the iron hands want to stick in a dreadnought so he can rule them as a living machine god!

 

YOU DID KNOW?

 

of course you did :D

 

Better inside a Warhound Titan like Khalophis of the TS.

[Kol Saresk]

Nah, Khalophis just controlled a Titan(although it was bigger than a Warhound IIRC) through the use of psychic crystals.

[KarkassBC]

Yes, I remember...

 

but that Titan walking through the streets of Tizca was really a God of destruction (of course with a fire shield around it and super mega energy rays from the hands it's even better as a God)

[Ingo Pech]

Sorry for being a thread-necromancer but I´ve recently finished "Angel Exterminatus" and I´m so angry about the description of the Iron Hands in the HH-series:

 

 

 

In "Fulgrim", they´re not able to run down a mostly human fleet. Instead they´re reliant on the Emperor´s Children.

In "Fulgrim", their Primarch is humiliated, decapitated and his had is abused as a decorative gift for the Warmaster.

In "Feat Of Iron", they´re not capable of killing some Eldar-scumbags. No, they must be rescued by normal men, because their bionics malfunction.

In "Feat Of Iron", their Primarch, Ferrus Manus, reveals himself to be very unwilling to learn, stubborn, one-dimensional and narrow minded - not what I expect from a halfgod-like being...

In "Angel Exterminatus", it is revealed, that the Iron Hands neglect and violate their Primarch´s warnings regarding the bionics and machination.

In "Angel Exterminatus", Fulgrim says, that he has drunken Ferrus´ blood and he made some fine ornaments out of his former brothers armour.

In "Angel Exterminatus", the Iron Hands are responsible for the fact that the killer of their gene-father and Primarch, Fulgrim, could become the Angel Exterminatus.

 

Everytime, the Iron Hands go to war - they´re defeated or must be rescued by someone else, whether it is the Imperial Army or the Salamanders or the Raven Guard...  And Nick Kyme was very thorough to describe the superiority of Vulkan compared to Ferrus in "Feat Of Iron". I´m so sick of this... really...

The only, really great portrayal of the Iron Tenth is the Space Marine-Battles-Novella "Wrath Of Iron" by Chris Wraight and I really hope, that he will write some HH-stuff for the Iron Hands... Soon!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Depressing, isn't it?

[[TA]Typher]

So far in the HH books Ferrus is the worst written Primarch so far.

 

They made him boarish and headstrong to the point of being mentally handicap. I'd understand him being a littke rasher or stubborn then some of his brothers, but they wrote him so bad it's impossible to tell he was suppose to be a primarch.

 

His legion comes off as dull and inept in the book Fulgrim.

 

I like the legion and the primarch, i just wish they would have made him at least have-way believable as a genius level super human. Sadly, since he had no bright moments in fulgrim it's probably too late to redeem him.

[Yodhrin]

I have to agree frankly, and after Priests of Mars and Mechanicum, I was really annoyed to see the IH get the same shoddy treatment at the hands of McNeill, especially given how sympathetic Perturabo's characterisation was. The bait&switch with the head in Fabius' lab was particularly galling("is it..is it..is it...naaaaahhh gotcher, lolz"). Still, given that the BL authors have evidently decided at their planning meetings that the IH are going to be the Heresy's general punching bag, I suppose we should be greatful that the deaf IH got the best one-liner in the book during the final battle.

[Wade Garrett]

We really need some cheese to go with all the whine in this thread...or, instead of beating them, I can join them!

 

The Night Lords Legion is the punching bag of Black Library! In Prince of Crows they get massacred by the Dark Angels not once but twice, and modern 40k is no better!

 

Lord of the Night:

A Heresy era Night Lord wakes up, lectures the modern incarnation on how disappointed Konrad Curze would be if he could see them now.

 

Soul Hunter:

The VIII Legion runs to do Abaddon's bidding, then runs away from the Blood Angels.

 

Blood Reaver:

The VIII Legion runs to do Huron Blackheart's bidding, then runs away from the Red Corsairs.

 

Void Stalker:

The VIII Legion terrorizes defenseless civilians, then runs away from the eldar.

 

Waaaah! Waaah! Why can't Matt Ward be assigned to write about the Night Lords, only he can correctly capture the super special snowflake unicorn princess awesomeness of the Sons of Nostromo!

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

The Night Lords Legion is the punching bag of Black Library! In Prince of Crows they get massacred by the Dark Angels not once but twice,

And you will never read a book about either of those defeats in any depth, since the Dark Angels are over represented in the HH series as it is. Instead you get to read about the exploits of Sevatar, the not-psychic, and read discussions in this forum about what a heartless bastard the Lion was for taking desperate measures in desperate times, that actually worked.

[[TA]Typher]

We really need some cheese to go with all the whine in this thread...or, instead of beating them, I can join them!

The Night Lords Legion is the punching bag of Black Library! In Prince of Crows they get massacred by the Dark Angels not once but twice, and modern 40k is no better!

Lord of the Night:

A Heresy era Night Lord wakes up, lectures the modern incarnation on how disappointed Konrad Curze would be if he could see them now.

Soul Hunter:

The VIII Legion runs to do Abaddon's bidding, then runs away from the Blood Angels.

Blood Reaver:

The VIII Legion runs to do Huron Blackheart's bidding, then runs away from the Red Corsairs.

Void Stalker:

The VIII Legion terrorizes defenseless civilians, then runs away from the eldar.

Waaaah! Waaah! Why can't Matt Ward be assigned to write about the Night Lords, only he can correctly capture the super special snowflake unicorn princess awesomeness of the Sons of Nostromo!

 

 

I totally disagree. After reading the Prince of Crows i like Curze now. I Always thought he as a emo space filler but he comes off as a strong primarch. The book made his legion seem interesting to me. I mean come on! Servatar was awesome and funny! I'm a huge DA fanboy but I'm really considering a NL army now.

 

As for the other books, I liked the Lord of Night. It was a great read. I like that just like Curze, the lead character wasn't a pawn to chaos. I need to read the other books too, hopefully they will be half as good.

 

 

 

The Night Lords Legion is the punching bag of Black Library! In Prince of Crows they get massacred by the Dark Angels not once but twice,

And you will never read a book about either of those defeats in any depth, since the Dark Angels are over represented in the HH series as it is. Instead you get to read about the exploits of Sevatar, the not-psychic, and read discussions in this forum about what a heartless bastard the Lion was for taking desperate measures in desperate times, that actually worked.

I think both primarchs came off looking good. Curze was strong and feral and seemed to hold his own better then most. All u have to do is read fulgrim to see a primarch(ferrus) that comes off as totally inept. Read deliverance lost and watch Corax go from brillant to a window licking stooge in the span of 20 pages. In retrospect, Curze looks quite good.

 

Oh, and Sevitar? He's a beast! Name one DA champion that is half as awesome fighting or half as funny or half as interesting? You can't because the DA don't seem to have any. Which makes me sad. Look at the thread on "non-primarchs that u'd like to see fight", half of them have Sevitars name in them, because he's a bad mofo!

 

 

So in short the NL come off pretty good in the warhammer universe. The poor IH however don't. Ferrus was about as smart as patrick star(spong bob referance), and his elite gaurd and captains seem to have been turned into servitors. They didnt even wreck the traitors when their primarch dead like the BA did, they just stood there until they all died. At least the NL pushed the DA back when Curse fell and retrieved him... The IH all just quit.

[Plaguecaster]

I never was a fan of Cruze the whole letting himself get killed in order to prove a point does sound stupid to me wouldn't it of been smarter to live on fighting than just give up I still thought he and his legion were always pretty awesome . Corax was a pretty great Primarch as well since he utterly beat the heck out of Lorgar.

 

Any way I hate how Iron Hands get given such a bad image by Black Library the majority of the book pass them off as a pretty weak legion always losing unable to win without help with some of the newer books I hated it that the Iron Hands in Fulgrim were a joke getting massacred without putting up a fight ok their veterans were going to die being totally outnumbered however they should of a least got to go down fighting taking a fair few traitors with them, I especially despise how Ferrus was killed . I got into Iron Hands by reading the Iron Hands novel by Jonathan green which In found to be quite good which got me liking the legion in the first place now there is barely any good info on them now days its annoying. Wrath of Iron is probably the best and greatest portray of the Iron Hands especially the quote "some men, we believe must become monsters so that all of humanity does not become so" which I believe shows how great they are the Iron Hands as they are sacrificing their humanity through all their bionics becoming what others see as soulless monsters so that they can protect the Imperium as they have seen the true face of betrayal and stand ever ready to destroy those who threaten the Imperium both without as well as within utterly without mercy

[Wade Garrett]

Sevatar? I say the Night Lords are the red headed step child of the Heresy and you counter with Sevatar?

 

What, pray tell, was the moment that showed he was a "beast"? Was it in Savage Weapons, when he absolutely failed at guarding his Primarch's back? In Prince of Crows when he has his Terminator company ambush and murder the three Night Lord elite captains the Dark Angels didn't kill, then passes out when it's time to fight the Dark Angels?

 

The First Legion can do fine without a "champion" that orders the assassination of his fellow Legionaries and faints in combat, thank you very much.

 

As for the Iron Hands veterans getting killed without taking nine times their number in Traitors with them in a glorious last stand which will be famed in song till the end of time, the bulk of the Night Lords Atramentar were CAPTURED ALIVE (assuming they didn't surrender) by the Dark Angels! Way to make the VIII look like punks ADB!

 

Sorry Iron Hands, I'll play you a sad song on the world's smallest fiddle but that's all you get from me.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Wade.

 

Take a deep breath.

 

Ignore for a fact it was me, of all forumites, that said the above sentence. Actually no, laugh a bit at the irony, it'll calm you down.

 

Sevatar is OP, bro. The Night Lords were just dysfunctional as an actual army. In Savage Weapons, the Night Lords won the ambush game and quite nearly killed off the Lion, and offed at least one DA champion. In Prince of Crows, he was just playing the succession game as the NLs played it. And uh... Dynamic entry. Remember that.

 

I can't believe I off-handedly defended Prince of Crows...

[Wade Garrett]

Read everything I've typed after "We need some cheese to go with all the whine in this thread" with the mental image of me using air quotes, eye rolls, and holding a giant sign that says SARCASM and you'll have a better idea of the point I'm trying to make re:

 

The Night Lords, the Iron Hands, and fanboyism in general.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Can I include a sock, white makeup and a red nose in that mental image?

[Wade Garrett]

You mean everyone hasn't already added the clown get up to their mental image of me?

 

Strange World we live in.

[Yodhrin]

Read everything I've typed after "We need some cheese to go with all the whine in this thread" with the mental image of me using air quotes, eye rolls, and holding a giant sign that says SARCASM and you'll have a better idea of the point I'm trying to make re:

 

The Night Lords, the Iron Hands, and fanboyism in general.

 

And this is supposed to make your trollery more palatable why again? Seriously, I'm interested to hear your thinking here, because being obviously sarcy and strawmanning everyone else's opinions, then condescendingly pointing out that's what you were doing as if we're all thick isn't so much explaining yourself as doubling-down on the original negative sentiment.

[Wade Garrett]

My point is that if you want, you can take any given Legion and then put on sackcloth and ashes about how they're being ill treated by the Horus Heresy series.

 

Honestly the X Legion has done better out of the Heresy than say, the Death Guard or the White Scars, who apparently did nothing of note during the whole thing (Nothing is an exaggeration, Garro caught a ship to Terra, a Scar tried to kill Little Horus, and a WS Librarian spoke at Nikea. Did I miss anything?)

 

I picked the Night Lords as an example of how any given Legion can be wept over, if you object I can find Ultramarines fans griping over Know No Fear and Rules of Engagement, Iron Warriors howling about Crimson Fist and The Iron Within, the Alpha Legion's backers on the subject of, oh, every appearance they've made in the Heresy..

 

It begins to get a bit old to those of us that are enjoying the bulk of the HH series bar the odd missteps (for me personally, Deliverance Lost).

[BassWave]

We really need some cheese to go with all the whine in this thread...or, instead of beating them, I can join them!

The Night Lords Legion is the punching bag of Black Library! In Prince of Crows they get massacred by the Dark Angels not once but twice, and modern 40k is no better!

Lord of the Night:

A Heresy era Night Lord wakes up, lectures the modern incarnation on how disappointed Konrad Curze would be if he could see them now.

Soul Hunter:

The VIII Legion runs to do Abaddon's bidding, then runs away from the Blood Angels.

Blood Reaver:

The VIII Legion runs to do Huron Blackheart's bidding, then runs away from the Red Corsairs.

Void Stalker:

The VIII Legion terrorizes defenseless civilians, then runs away from the eldar.

Waaaah! Waaah! Why can't Matt Ward be assigned to write about the Night Lords, only he can correctly capture the super special snowflake unicorn princess awesomeness of the Sons of Nostromo!

Except that in every single instance, there was a well thought out, intelligently written reason for the Night Lords' motivations in every step of the way. The Iron Hands however get garbage in the way of story telling. All people are asking are for decent, well thought stories for the Iron Hands, and as this thread clearly shows, its not just the Iron Hand fans that want this. We aren't asking for a master piece. All we want is a book that makes us cheer for our favorite chapter the way Helsreach did for the Templars, or the Talos trilogy did for the Night Lords.

My point is that if you want, you can take any given Legion and then out on sackcloth and ashes about how they're being ill treated by the Horus Heresy series.

Except that the mediocrity the Iron Hands receive is not limited to the Horus Heresy novels, OR Black Library

P.S.

Really you chose Night Lords for the sake of your argument? One of the most popular traitor legions? LOL!

[Wade Garrett]

Eh, VIII Legion's win-loss record (as opposed to popularity and cool stories they feature in) suffers from ADB's tendency to write incredible stories about the featured faction...having the ever loving snot kicked out of it. Helsreach ended with all Grimaldus's squad dead, him buried under a pile of rubble, for example.

 

So if you're using nothing more than the IH's win loss record in the Heresy as the reason they're the fall guys (Ferrous and Morlocks slaughtered on Isstvan, the failure to kill Perturabo or Fulgrim in Angel Exterminatus) then the sons of Nostromo can match you foul up for foul up and humiliating loss for loss.

 

Personally I thought the Iron Tenth had a good showing in AE, Iron Father Thamatica is best Iron Father.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I have no problem with Loyalists losing battles at the start of the Heresy, regardless of Legion affiliation.  That's the way the story has always been told, after all.  Frankly, I'm glad that my Legion has gotten some press.  The Iron Hands have always been one of the lowest-key of the First Founding, never having the fan base of the favorites like the Fists or the Night Lords.  In the original broad-stroke history of the Heresy, the Hands got the Drop Site Massacre and that was it.  Now we have an idea of their Crusade-era tactics and organization, and we are actually getting information on what they did between Isstvan V and the end the Heresy (instead of go home and pout).

 

I agree with you Wade, that the Hands got a good showing in Angel Exterminatus.  Sharrowkyn got most of the press with his head-shot of one target and slice-and-dice another, but Wayland did a LOT of damage during the escape from Hydra Cordatus.  Toss in mad-scientist Thamatica and the Heart of Iron (which is in Deathwatch: First Founding, I noticed the other day, which came out long before AE), and we got some pretty decent press.

 

As a fan of the Iron Hands, my anger is not at the representation of the Legion as a whole.  We've always been one of the blunt-instrument Legions, so the rather unimaginative tactics their shown using in Feat of Iron and against the Diasporex in Fulgrim didn't get me all fired up like some others.  What raised my ire was the misrepresentation of Ferrus himself, especially considering the differences between him and Fulgrim.  Given his natural proclivities and the power of his hands, he should have had absolutely no problem crafting a better weapon than Fulgrim did between Mount Narodnya.  Ferrus is in the running as one of the physically strongest and toughest of the Primarchs, yet that inherent strength doesn't shine through at all, anywhere.  He should have been able to last longer in the fight against Fulgrim, period.  I'd argue that he should have won, but like I said -- history is history, and some events have to happen.

[Sevatar]

I totally agree - Ferrus is the strongest/toughest (read Forgotten Sons), but no-where is it shown. Hopefully in an Iron Hands HH book, there will be flashbacks of that. 

[Marshal Rohr]

The Iron Hands have gotten a ton of spotlight in the series. I mean for Christ sake we've been trapped at Isstvan V in the story line for like 5 years now right? Maybe 6? There's 15+ books out and we've made it 2 years into the heresy and Horus rising came out when I was still in high school...

 

They need to move the dang story forward

[fission]

@ sevatar : true Ferrus is the strongest...with Vulkan . As said in Forgotten Sons.

You can see a little of that in Promethean Sun.

 

The fight between Ferrus and Fulgrim seems ok to me . Ferruss is strongest . But Fulgrim as always tried to be perfect in everything , so in close combat . And he got a deamon weapon .....

 

For the IH , I understand that their fans are angry but IMHO they are pretty. Doing well in the aftermath of their primarch's death .