Are Iron Hands the Fall Guys?

[Bannus]

And just to clarify, which contradicting fluff are you referring to?

 

The most significant contradiction is that the Iron Hands did not develop any of their divergent traits (most significnat of these being the devotion to the mechanical/bionics/Iron-Fathers/The Unyeilding Mind and the Unyeilding Body) until after the death of their Primarch. So all the BS about him trying to discourage the fetish for bionics before his death and these characteristics being common among the Heresy-era Legion fly in the face of the original IA article.

[Adra'Melek]

During the Heresy what exactly did the Iron Hands do that's being missed? Are there any stories or legates about events that'll be coming up?

[Kol Saresk]

Not a whole lot. They're like the Salamanders, Isstvan V and then nothing. No "major", legion wide contributions. So far, there is only Graham McNeill's band of Iron Hands from an ebook and Angel Extminatus. There is a mixed band of Istdtvan survivors in Vulkan Lives, but only two of them are Iron Hands.

 

Looking at the original IA article, I see nothing that says Ferrus Manus taught to use augmetics over flesh. He did teach that weakness should be expunged, but the tone the IA article explicitly states that their hatred of flesh is something the Iron Hands did, not Ferrus Manus. It says that when the Emperor fell, they say they received a vision of their Primarch's spirit and it was in that vision that they were taught to abhor the weakness that is flesh.

 

So actually, according to the IA article, during the Heresy the Iron Hands do not have a hatred of flesh and that they are not contradicting it by showing the progression of some belief amongst the Legion since it was something that was never actually taught by Ferrus Manus while he was alive. So their is no true contradiction.

[Kais Klip]

In regards to the Ferrus vs Fulgrim round,

"Ferrus" mentions in Vulkan Lives that he considered Fulgrim beat in that fight

considering that he forced Fulgrim to open up to the Laer blade in order to kill Ferrus. Similar to fighting a bomb strapped guy who doesn't want to detonate. What does him detonating tell you about the progress of the fight? 

[Kol Saresk]

 

Well that "Ferrus" was literally a figment of Vulkan's imagination. So its telling of events is unreliable at best.

 

 

Fulgrim has a full account of the battle that can either confirm or deny the account. But I won't be near my copy for quite a while.

[Conn Eremon]

That's how I saw that fight in Fulgrim. Fulgrim seemed the consummate swordsmen, more skilled than Ferrus Manus. The Gorgon, on the other hand, had strength, perserverence and passion on his side. Ferrus Manus was battering Fulgrim down, whittling away at him. What finally felled Ferrus Manus wasn't Fulgrim just being better, it was Fulgrim losing control of himself to an ancient, powerful Daemon, essentially becoming a Primarch-level Daemonhost. The way it's portrayed in that book made it clear that, without the Laer sword and the bound daemon within it, Fulgrim would have lost. 

 

Edit: And I was unaware that the Iron Hand's color scheme had changed. Wasn't it always black with widespread gunmetal chrome?

[Kais Klip]

 

Aye but Vulkan knew his brother very well, that combined with the fact the mention was before the more "corrupted" Ferrus should be quite reliable in terms of telling us what Ferrus would have done and said were he with Vulkan.

Even disregarding that and going on Fulgrim alone, Ferrus was beating Fulgrim, and when Ferrus died it wasn't Fulgrim that killed him. 

 

Edit: point got ninja'd by Airt. 

[Kol Saresk]

Well, that was kind of why I said

Kol_Saresk, on 06 Aug 2013 - 16:30, said:

Fulgrim has a full account of the battle that can either confirm or deny the account. But I won't be near my copy for quite a while.

lol. I was taking into account that there was another account, but I didn't recall that account and also pointed out that I didn't have access to it.

 

But the figment Ferrus told the same story as Fulgrim novel then? Hmm. Then I wonder, is Fulgrim being haunted by Ferrus, or is it Vulkan? Perhaps it is neither? Or could it be both?

[Kais Klip]

No aggro intended hehe, I'm just putting forward a curious point I've come to muse across. The final Fulgrim vs Ferrus fight scene has Fulgrim beheading Ferrus. The Ferrus "figment" with Vulkan remarks that "I bested him, you know. Fulgrim, I mean." The remarking body is a figment of Vulkan's imagination as far as we can tell, but considering Vulkan's familiarity with his brother it would not be wrong to say Vulkan is a reliable source on what Ferrus would have done and said.

 

A curious point of note is that Vulkan seemed unfamiliar with Ferrus' slayer until the remark, so either Vulkan's subconsious was somehow aware of the fact, or the figment was something more. 

 

The figment's remark leads me on to consider that Ferrus did in fact best and bring about the end of the Fulgrim we knew, and what ended up beheading Ferrus was not Fulgrim. Sure, I'm all behind the point "what wins, wins." but if we strictly analyse the contenders of the fight; Fulgrim and Ferrus, Fulgrim stopped being sooner than Ferrus, meaning by those same standards Ferrus stopped Fulgrim the Phoenician existing before Ferrus lost his head, thus bringing a "win" for Ferrus. 

 

[Kol Saresk]

Well, IIRC

Vulkan Lives also implies that the Iron Hands suffered some sort of psychic backwash when Ferrus died, similar to how all the Blood Angels knew Sanguinius had died and the same with the Sons of Horus. Maybe because FulgrimVulkan had a bond that rivalled the Phoenician and the Gorgon, he was psychically made aware of some of the particulars subconciously and then when he created the figment to survive Curze, the figment was using the subconcious information and sharing it with the concious mind of Vulkan? Assuming such a thing is even possible.

 

 

EDIT: I meant to say Vulkan, not Fulgrim.

[Adra'Melek]

Although Fulgrim took control back after. So it was only a temporary moral victory.

[Kais Klip]

As temporary as Ferrus' death. Ferrus only has a chance at being valid because the wording is in the past tense and not present; at that point in time, and in history, Ferrus bested Fulgrim. Curious thought. 

[Wade Garrett]

Really, X Legion? Really, THIS is the arguement we're going to make?

 

I hate to break it to Vulkan's imaginary friend, but (the book) Fulgrim is quite clear that Nancy Boy was not overtaken by the daemon of the Laersword until after he'd made old Metal Hands a lot shorter. It's only after he looks at the dead body of his closest brother that he breaks down and begs for oblivion, which the daemon grants by taking his body and sticking him in a painting because Keepers of Secrets are jerks like that.

 

It's true, he was drawing power from the sword before that, but then, Ferrous's living metal arms aren't exactly standard issue Primarch stuff either, and I've never heard anyone claim he was cheating by using them.

[depthcharge12]

Hehehe

 

Why is it everytime the Fulgrim possesion thing comes up I always start getting Michael Jackson's "Man in the Mirror" stuck in my head...?

[Greyall]

We're going down the 'VS' route, guys, don't let that daemon take you...

 

I'm more interested in what bannus mentioned, about the Iron Hands' 'deviations' not manifesting until after Ferrus' death. That doubt has clung to me for a long time, I actually thought Ferrus was more or less keeping such tendencies in check. The hand replacing part was his idea, I assume, so, to use a mature argument, he started it.

 

The Hands do seem to be the fall guys, even more than the Ravens or the Salamanders but, hey, heresy and civil war don't start without a bang. Shock value is great, so long as it's well placed. And who cares if Fulgrim cheated or not, he killed one of the best generals and warriors among the Primarchs and gets to toy with the his head. Dung hits the fan, fan gets thrown into a flaming snake pit, the flames are now wolverines. The Heresy is on.

[Kol Saresk]

Except that the IA article explicitly states that the "Hate flesh!" bit came after his death in what the Iron Hands claim was a vision from their dead father.

 

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc69/bleachit54/IHBelief_zps68f9fa85.png

 

So actually, Ferrus hating the "hate flesh" thing is certainly a possibility. Otherwise it wouldn't take a ghost's commandment to become wipespread, would it?

[Greyall]

Hold on, Kol, I said I had that doubt, meaning my words above were no statement at all.

 

I know the metal-thing became stronger after Ferrus died, which is why I wondered if it was there before, as well. The hand-replacing tradition was something from before the Heresy, right? My other doubt was if it was already a symbol of true strength or just a way to emulate the Primarch.

 

Not saying a Legion, especially one so traumatized - though they won't admit it -, wouldn't distort or make up their Father's words and go against his teachings. But having said Legion simply take his words to extremes isn't far-fetched either. Ferrus was a strict leader, I'm pretty sure he'd know if mecha-enhancements became practice among the Iron Hands, and if he so disapproved of it, how would warriors like the enhanced Iron Hand that almost killed Horus Aximand exist?

 

Of course that particular warrior may have been injured prior to that battle, but either that's too much of a coincidence or the amount of enhanced Iron Hands we're seeing throughout the Heresy Novels are just writers going cliché. In most of their mentions I've read mechanized limbs/parts end up getting used. Foreshadowing?

[Kol Saresk]

.......... I feel special/ Sorry, I apologize for misreading.

 

Well, IIRC, that short story from the Primarchs anthology that was about Ferrus Manus says he was against what was happening to his Legion, so it could exist before hand, but like you said, it was something Ferrus Manus was against. The IA article simply points to it being an Iron hand thing based on what they perceived from the actions of their Primarch, not what he actually said. From what I remember of Fulgrim, we know that the Iron Fathers existed all the way back then but even Ferrus seemed a little off about them since the way he talked about them suggested not many in the Legion liked them. From what I remember.

[Greyall]

Makes a lot of sense, something like that doesn't just pop up - although, with the psychic backlash of the Emperor's death...but still, it's much better storytelling if it has some roots.

 

Now that I think of it, I was pretty wrong when I said Ferrus would've known about Marines enhancing themselves mechanically, he was one to allow the Medusean tribes to battle each other, so it's also pretty likely he would've allowed his Legionnaires a good deal of individuality (which would extend to the Chapters - assuming any - and Companies). Forget any father-figuring for him, the man was his planet's god, in a way, [proudly] watching the little ones go about their lives so long as they obeyed him.

[Conn Eremon]

Aye, those bits with Santar, his next in command, showed that even with him the Gorgon is a distant, "just do what I say" kind of guy.

[Wade Garrett]

"Feat of Iron" shows Ferrous was against the bionics?

 

This is the novella where Ferrous tells Santar to punish the Iron Hand who removed his bionic arm so he could fight alongside the Imperial Guard in the Eldar sorcery storm. That is not the behavior of a Primarch who disapproved of his Legion's augmentation policy.

 

Not to mention the main sources on Ferrous despising the Iron Creed are a scroll that he may or may not have written and the words of Julius Karoseon, Daemon Prince of Slaanesh.

[Kol Saresk]

Huh. I guess I need to stop going by what I hear. I admit, I didn't particularly read that story. So actually, it would come down to that nowhere in BL's HH series does it contradict the whole "Hate the Flesh" thing since it became a "Legion trait" after Ferrus' death. And since it becomes mainstream after the Heresy, it wouldn't be comtradictory to show opposing views within the Legion. Would that be a fair approximation?

[Wade Garrett]

If I remember correctly, Angel Exterminatus has some Hands talking about how one of their officers (who has implanted himself into a tithe Land Raider) takes the legion creed much farther than Ferrous would have wanted, so...maybe?

[Greyall]

This is a hard one to crack. Perhaps Ferrus specifically doesn't want quasi-automata. He's in command, he needs no other bar but the one he wants to set where he pleases.

[High MarshalGR]

Makes a lot of sense, something like that doesn't just pop up - although, with the psychic backlash of the Emperor's death...but still, it's much better storytelling if it has some roots.

 

Now that I think of it, I was pretty wrong when I said Ferrus would've known about Marines enhancing themselves mechanically, he was one to allow the Medusean tribes to battle each other, so it's also pretty likely he would've allowed his Legionnaires a good deal of individuality (which would extend to the Chapters - assuming any - and Companies). Forget any father-figuring for him, the man was his planet's god, in a way, [proudly] watching the little ones go about their lives so long as they obeyed him.

 

Quite accurate I think. I can understand the tactic of allowing civil wars to make people stronger and let the strongest survive, but that's still a method which needs a limit (which is what the iron Hands never thought about). This, along with some insight from the Wrath of Iron:

 

 

They are not my hands. This fact is forgotten by my brothers - inexplicably, it has always seemed to me. The hands are strong, to be sure, and have created great things for us all, but they are not mine. And that counts for something. They forget that thesilver on my arms comes from a beast that I vanquished. It is the mark of a great evil that I ended, and yet it persists within me... I would struggle to remove it now... I will not remove the silver from my flesh because I have learned to depend on it. The fault is with my mind. I rely on the augmentation given to me by my metal gauntlets, so much so that the flesh beneath them is now little more than a distant memory... A day will come when I will strip it from me, lest I lose the power to master myself forever. Already my Legion's warriors replace their shield hands with metal in my honour, and so they too are learning to doubt the natural strength of their bodies. They must be weaned off this practice before it becomes a mania for them. Hatred of what is natural, of what is human, is the first and greatest of the corruptions. So I record it here: when the time comes, I will strip my hands of their unnatural silver. I will instruct my Legion to recant their distrust of the flesh. I will turn then away from the gifts of the machine and bid them relearn the mysteries of flesh, bone and blood. When my father's Crusade is over, this shall be my sacred task. When the fighting is done, I shall cure my Legion and myself. For if fighting is all there is, if we may never pause to reflect on what such devotion to strength is doing to us, then our compulsion will only grow. Already I see the madness that path leads to, and so I shall excise the silver from my hands. In doing so I shall weaken myself and my sons, but nonetheless it must be done. The hands are strong, and have created great things, but they are not mine.

This could be good food for thought as far as Iron Hands go. It's there for them to find, a possible starting point for them to begin working with their flesh, which Ferrus didn't regard so low as far as I can understand in this text and was beginning to realize the flaws of his actions.  His warnings went to the garbage as far as I know at the least, which is proven by the increasing tendency of the Iron hands to use implants and bionic replacements during their life as Astartes.

 

The other issue I would like to address is the hatred between them and RG and the Salamanders. They fought bravely with a plan while they were clearly outnumbered and shocked from the betrayal of the latter legions that arrived which were suppossedly loyal. They simply tried to be effective and survive instead of suiciding without taking as many of the enemy as they could with them, as well as try their best to live another day.