Chaos Boon excluded results vs RE-ROLL rules

[Kastor Krieg]

OK, here goes. Chaos Boon is decided by a roll on a table from the C:CSM. There are a few ways to roll on it, and sometimes some results are excluded (Spawn / DP for Gift of Mutation option, DP for Gift of Mutation Tzeentch spell). HOWEVER:

• The Re-Roll rules from BRB, p. 5 state plainly that you can re-roll only once and have to accept the 2nd result.
  

THEREFORE:

• You can still become a DP after the Tzeentch spell. Be a Dark Apostle or in his squad and get the Dark Apotheosis on the re-roll. It has to stay!
  
• You can still begin the game as a Daemon Prince (or a Spawn) from the Gift option. In this case that's the Warlord's fate. Once again, re-roll and get one of those two results - your Warlord can be a Spawn (or semi-nekkid DP) now :>
  

 

 

:tu:

[dswanick]

OK, here goes. Chaos Boon is decided by a roll on a table from the C:CSM. There are a few ways to roll on it, and sometimes some results are excluded (Spawn / DP for Gift of Mutation option, DP for Gift of Mutation Tzeentch spell). HOWEVER:

• The Re-Roll rules from BRB, p. 5 state plainly that you can re-roll only once and have to accept the 2nd result.
  

THEREFORE:

• You can still become a DP after the Tzeentch spell. Be a Dark Apostle or in his squad and get the Dark Apotheosis on the re-roll. It has to stay!
  
• You can still begin the game as a Daemon Prince (or a Spawn) from the Gift option. In this case that's the Warlord's fate. Once again, re-roll and get one of those two results - your Warlord can be a Spawn (or semi-nekkid DP) now :>
  

 

 

:lol:

No. Codex overrules rulebook, and the Codex tells you to keep rolling until you get a valid result.

[Panzerbjørn]

And even if it didn't, you still couldn't get one of the excluded results because they are excluded which is different from getting to do a re-roll.

 

For example, if you have to roll for something to happen to a random model in a squad of five, no matter how many times you roll a 6, you have to roll again because only 1-5 is a valid result.

[rahl02]

OK, here goes. Chaos Boon is decided by a roll on a table from the C:CSM. There are a few ways to roll on it, and sometimes some results are excluded (Spawn / DP for Gift of Mutation option, DP for Gift of Mutation Tzeentch spell). HOWEVER:

• The Re-Roll rules from BRB, p. 5 state plainly that you can re-roll only once and have to accept the 2nd result.
  

THEREFORE:

• You can still become a DP after the Tzeentch spell. Be a Dark Apostle or in his squad and get the Dark Apotheosis on the re-roll. It has to stay!
  
• You can still begin the game as a Daemon Prince (or a Spawn) from the Gift option. In this case that's the Warlord's fate. Once again, re-roll and get one of those two results - your Warlord can be a Spawn (or semi-nekkid DP) now :>
  

 

 

:lol:

No. Codex overrules rulebook, and the Codex tells you to keep rolling until you get a valid result.

 

 

This is where your wrong. The BRB does state "The second roll counts, even if it means a worse result than the first, and no single dice can be re-rolled more than once, regardless of the source of the re-roll.

 

Way wrong bud sorry. That's been a rule since I think before 2nd ed. I know for fact 3rd.

[dswanick]

OK, here goes. Chaos Boon is decided by a roll on a table from the C:CSM. There are a few ways to roll on it, and sometimes some results are excluded (Spawn / DP for Gift of Mutation option, DP for Gift of Mutation Tzeentch spell). HOWEVER:

• The Re-Roll rules from BRB, p. 5 state plainly that you can re-roll only once and have to accept the 2nd result.
  

THEREFORE:

• You can still become a DP after the Tzeentch spell. Be a Dark Apostle or in his squad and get the Dark Apotheosis on the re-roll. It has to stay!
  
• You can still begin the game as a Daemon Prince (or a Spawn) from the Gift option. In this case that's the Warlord's fate. Once again, re-roll and get one of those two results - your Warlord can be a Spawn (or semi-nekkid DP) now :>
  

 

 

:lol:

No. Codex overrules rulebook, and the Codex tells you to keep rolling until you get a valid result.

 

 

This is where your wrong. The BRB does state "The second roll counts, even if it means a worse result than the first, and no single dice can be re-rolled more than once, regardless of the source of the re-roll.

 

Way wrong bud sorry. That's been a rule since I think before 2nd ed. I know for fact 3rd.

"

On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence.

"BRB,

Pg

.7

The BRB rule tells you to take the second result even if worse than the first. The codex tells you to keep rolling until you get a valid result. Codex > Rulebook, so you do what the Codex tells you.

 

And please, don't call me "bud".

[rahl02]

OK, here goes. Chaos Boon is decided by a roll on a table from the C:CSM. There are a few ways to roll on it, and sometimes some results are excluded (Spawn / DP for Gift of Mutation option, DP for Gift of Mutation Tzeentch spell). HOWEVER:

• The Re-Roll rules from BRB, p. 5 state plainly that you can re-roll only once and have to accept the 2nd result.
  

THEREFORE:

• You can still become a DP after the Tzeentch spell. Be a Dark Apostle or in his squad and get the Dark Apotheosis on the re-roll. It has to stay!
  
• You can still begin the game as a Daemon Prince (or a Spawn) from the Gift option. In this case that's the Warlord's fate. Once again, re-roll and get one of those two results - your Warlord can be a Spawn (or semi-nekkid DP) now :>
  

 

 

:lol:

No. Codex overrules rulebook, and the Codex tells you to keep rolling until you get a valid result.

 

 

This is where your wrong. The BRB does state "The second roll counts, even if it means a worse result than the first, and no single dice can be re-rolled more than once, regardless of the source of the re-roll.

 

Way wrong bud sorry. That's been a rule since I think before 2nd ed. I know for fact 3rd.

"

On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence.

"BRB,

Pg

.7

The BRB rule tells you to take the second result even if worse than the first. The codex tells you to keep rolling until you get a valid result. Codex > Rulebook, so you do what the Codex tells you.

 

And please, don't call me "bud".

 

 

It just says "re-roll" it doesn't tell you to keep re-rolling every times. It just states to re-roll. The rules for re-rolling state you can do this just once.

[dswanick]

Now I do think some things need to be clarified here. There are two different situations going on here:

- The first is Gift of Mutation.

"

Gift of Mutation

Do not apply any Spawnhood or Dark Apotheosis results; roll again on the table instead.

", C:CSM,

Pg

.67

This rule tells you to not apply these two results, but to re-roll instead. If you want to argue that Codex > Rulebook does not apply, then if you roll either of these results and then re-roll either of these results you can't apply them but you also can't continue to re-roll. losing the Gift of Mutation.

You must accept that Codex > Rulebook if you want to keep rolling until you get a result you can apply.

 

- The second is Boon of Mutation

"

Boon of Mutation

...he must immediately make a roll on the Chaos Boon table (re-rolling the Dark Apotheosis result)...

", C:CSM,

Pg

.70

I'm willing to accept that, in this case, if a first DA result is rolled and the re-roll comes up DA then the model does become a Daemon Prince. It's a very rare occurance and might be intentional that the DA result should be unlikely but possible. However, to get this possibility you have to accept that Codex does not overrule Rulebook in which case you must accept that in all instance (and not just this one), including the example above.

[Kol Saresk]

Sorry Dswanick, I didn't see your post there.

[rahl02]

Now I do think some things need to be clarified here. There are two different situations going on here:

- The first is Gift of Mutation.

"

Gift of Mutation

Do not apply any Spawnhood or Dark Apotheosis results; roll again on the table instead.

", C:CSM,

Pg

.67

This rule tells you to not apply these two results, but to re-roll instead. If you want to argue that Codex > Rulebook does not apply, then if you roll either of these results and then re-roll either of these results you can't apply them but you also can't continue to re-roll. losing the Gift of Mutation.

You must accept that Codex > Rulebook if you want to keep rolling until you get a result you can apply.

 

- The second is Boon of Mutation

"

Boon of Mutation

...he must immediately make a roll on the Chaos Boon table (re-rolling the Dark Apotheosis result)...

", C:CSM,

Pg

.70

I'm willing to accept that, in this case, if a first DA result is rolled and the re-roll comes up DA then the model does become a Daemon Prince. It's a very rare occurance and might be intentional that the DA result should be unlikely but possible. However, to get this possibility you have to accept that Codex does not overrule Rulebook in which case you must accept that in all instance (and not just this one), including the example above.

 

In the first instance for Gift of Mutation then yes if you roll Either of the Excluded items twice then you loose the Effects of Gift of Mutation. Same for Boon of Mutation, I firmly believe that you can't re-roll a re-roll. It's been in the rules for so long now it shouldn't be an issue.

 

If it's working intended (allowing re-rolls of re-rolls, (which it doesn't ) then you could by some quirk of Chaos indefinitely re-roll causing a loop to happen where you end up only getting DA.

 

 

Another example of this is lightning claws they allow for re-rolling failed to wound rolls. Had they not stipulated that you cannot at any time re-roll a re-roll then you'd never fail to wound ever. Now apply that same thought here. If again by some quirk you kept getting Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis you couldn't start the game.

[dswanick]

In the first instance for Gift of Mutation then yes if you roll Either of the Excluded items twice then you loose the Effects of Gift of Mutation.

Hey, as long as you're willing to accept the loss of the Gift then I'm willing to accept one re-roll. But that's not the OPs stance, he contends that by limiting it to one re-roll you can apply the disallowed result - based on the wording of the BRB rule on re-rolls having to accept the second result.

[Kol Saresk]

Well here's the thing, even if the continuous re-rolls on Gift of Mutation were possible, the fact that the results can never apply still means that that part of the OP is wrong. So wouldn't all that is left to be decided on is what to do with Boon of Mutation or is it DP on the re-roll is okay?

[rahl02]

Well here's the thing, even if the continuous re-rolls on Gift of Mutation were possible, the fact that the results can never apply still means that that part of the OP is wrong. So wouldn't all that is left to be decided on is what to do with Boon of Mutation or is it DP on the re-roll is okay?

 

Boon of mutation would stand, you always keep the 2nd roll regardless. It's the way of the Chaos gods to toy with the world of mortals. If Tzeentch Decides to make your Person a DP well, who can stop him.

[*Furyou Miko]

The way I see it is that Boon of Mutation stands - you reroll the Dark Apotheosis, if you get it again, you get DP'd.

 

Gift of Mutation however says "roll again", not "reroll" - it's not a reroll, it's starting the process of rolling over because of an invalid result.

[dswanick]

The way I see it is that Boon of Mutation stands - you reroll the Dark Apotheosis, if you get it again, you get DP'd.

 

Gift of Mutation however says "roll again", not "reroll" - it's not a reroll, it's starting the process of rolling over because of an invalid result.

Good point. I was just sitting here, considering this same angle. I just wasn't sure if that variation in wording really makes much difference...

[Grey Mage]

Rerolling means you take the result you got, discard it, and then carry on with a new roll.

 

IF a roll is not valid- because the number it generated is not a legal option- you didnt get a result. The roll is meaningless and shouldnt affect the game at all.

[Seahawk]

It works exactly as it does in WHFB chaos: keep rolling and rolling and rolling until a valid result has come up. The reasons for it have already been discussed.

[nurglez]

Rerolling means you take the result you got, discard it, and then carry on with a new roll.

 

IF a roll is not valid- because the number it generated is not a legal option- you didnt get a result. The roll is meaningless and shouldnt affect the game at all.

 

This, it specifies Roll on boon, so you keep rolling until you get a valid result.

 

The dark apostle one just says if you get prince reroll it, so if you rolled prince twice then fair enough, a prince you shall be, and the same goes for the warlord trait.

 

The word's re-roll and roll imply different things to me.

 

No conflict of rules here that I can see, though rare for it to come up,

 

And really, as if you could keep rolling the same result on 2 dice for ever, I like hypothetical situations but that is very unlikely.

[rahl02]

Rerolling means you take the result you got, discard it, and then carry on with a new roll.

 

IF a roll is not valid- because the number it generated is not a legal option- you didnt get a result. The roll is meaningless and shouldnt affect the game at all.

 

 

I concede to you GM, you've make a point that I cannot argue. I first read the GoM as re-roll, not roll again.

 

 

 

Also off topic, Grey Mage do you remember months and months ago the heated debate about Arjac's thunder hammer when thrown making the model if survived I 1 well it does now. Funny I think.

[Grey Mage]

I do remember that- funny how the entire game can change overnight at times. Though the edition hop certainly makes everything new again.

[Axagoras]

Rules as written:

 

With boon of mutation you get it because after you re-roll and it comes up again the BRB says it cannot be re-rolled so the result stands.

 

For gift it says roll again, which is technically not "re-rolling" so you would keep "rolling again" until you get a result that stands.

 

Rules as intended:

 

You do not get to be a DP or a spawn off the bat, which makes sense.