Hammering the Math: Khorne Berzerkers vs. Khorne CSM

[Polaria]

Okay. I did the math for nine different iterations of close combat pitting an exact same point amount of Khorne Berzerkers against Mark of Khorne Chaos Space Marines. Normal assaults, dirge casters, disoriented charges and such are included in the scenarios. So who is really the King of Khorne Troops?

 

The common internet wisdom seems to say Khorne Berzerkers suck goats and MoK CSM are way better, but is it really so?

 

Well, it depends. As the math is long, I mean really long, I'll save that for the second post and just put collected results here:

 

1) Mark of Khorne Chaos Space Marines cause slightly more wounds overall as long as you have both flamers alive to shoot before assaulting and you can cover at least a total of 12 models with the flamers.

 

2) Berzerker Champions handle challenges better than Mark of Khorne Champions.

 

3) If combat drags out to subsequent rounds the Khorne Berzerkers gain a slight edge, partly because their champion is more likely to survive and kill stuff faster.

 

4) The moment you lose one of the flamers the Khorne Berzerkers become a bit better.

 

5) If you lose both flamers the Khorne Berzerkers become a lot better.

 

6) If you have the habit of forgetting to use Frag grenade during the shooting or can't position flamers well enough to cover 12 models then Berzerkers have a slight edge.

 

7) CSM still have more bodies to absorb wounds from shooting, which this math cannot take into account.

 

8) Khorne Berzerkers still have Fearless which means you can never lose the whole squad of them in shooting or assault phase due to a failed Leadership check. This math does not take this into account.

 

Still TL;DR: If you play a perfect game with flamers and frag grenades, then Mark of Khorne CSM are better, otherwise Khorne Berzerkers are.

[Polaria]

Math part and the specifics. You can freely skip this post if you are more interested in the actual results which are above.

 

 

Following is a comparison of Khorne Berzerkers against Chaos Space Marines in combat. I'll put both up into nasty close-combat oriented combos and pit them against each other using a mathematics. May the best servant of Khorne win! (the second place gets a honor of supporting Khornes throne with his skull...)

 

Note#1: I will not write out the full mathematics for each case, but the amount of wounds caused are theoretical average results. Effect of casualties from shooting and effect of Counter-Attack are calculated by reducing the casualty count without rounding and adding a number of attacks adjusted by the probability of succesfull Ld check for Counter-Attack. Thus no casualties or attacks are rounded to full numbers at any point.

 

Note#2: Flamers templates are assumed to cover 6 models each when used in shooting phase. Yes, thats moderately bad model placement on the part of the one who is getting shot, but plausible.

 

Note#3: Fragmentation grenades are used in shooting phase by one model in the shooting squad. The small blast is assumed to cover four models with 40% chance, two models with 15% chance (effectively meaning 1 to 2 inch scatter) and 45% chance of missing target totally.

 

Note#4: Flamers and Champions are assumed to be protected from shooting and overwatch due to model placement.

 

 

Average wounds caused by a single attack:

 

Shooting

Frag: 0.313

Flamer: 1.00

Bolt pistol: 0.083

 

Overwatch

Flamer: 0.33

Bolt pistol: 0.027

 

Lightning Claw – Furious WS5: 0.58

Lightning Claw WS5: 0.495

Lightning Claw WS4: 0.375

Close Combat – Furious WS5: 0.144

Close Combat WS5: 0.109

Close combat WS4: 0.083

 

Leadership test for Counter-Assault. 0.84

 

10 Berzerkers – 215 points

Berzerker Champion has a Lightning Claw

 

12 Chaos Space Marines – 215 points

Close combat weapons instead of bolters, Mark of Khorne

Aspiring Champion has a Lightning Claw

2 flamers

 

#1 Scenario: Berzerkers assault CSM

Berzerkers fire and kill 1.06 CSM on average

CSM Overwatch kills 0.90 Berzerkers on average

Berzerker Champion causes 2.32 wounds

Berzerkers cause 4.67 wounds

Aspiring Champions causes 1.07 wounds

Chaos Space Marines cause 2.17 wounds

 

#2 Scenario: CSM assault the Berzerkers

CSM fire and kill 3.06 Berzerkers on average

Berzerker Overwatch kills 0.19 CSM on average

Aspiring Champion causes 1.50 wounds

CSM cause 3.42 wounds

Berzerker Champion causes 1.41 wounds

Berzerkers cause 1.84 wounds

 

#3 Scenario: Berzerkers assault CSM, disoriented charge

Berzerkers fire and kill 1.06 CSM on average

CSM Overwatch kills 0.90 Berzerkers on average

Berzerker Champion causes 1.16 wounds

Berzerkers cause 1.77 wounds

Aspiring Champions causes 1.07 wounds

Chaos Space Marines cause 2.17 wounds

 

#4 Scenario: CSM assault the Berzerkers, disoriented charge

CSM fire and kill 3.06 Berzerkers on average

Berzerker Overwatch kills 0.19 CSM on average

Aspiring Champion causes 0.75 wounds

CSM cause 1.63 wounds

Berzerker Champion causes 1.41 wounds

Berzerkers cause 1.84 wounds

 

#5 Scenario: Berzerkers assault CSM with Dirge Caster nearby

Berzerkers fire and kill 1.06 CSM on average

CSM get no Overwatch

Berzerker Champion causes 2.32 wounds

Berzerkers cause 5.18 wounds

Aspiring Champions causes 1.07 wounds

Chaos Space Marines cause 2.17 wounds

 

#6 Scenario: CSM assault Berzerkers with Dirge Caster nearby

CSM fire and kill 3.06 Berzerkers on average

Berzerkers get no Overwatch

Aspiring Champion causes 1.50 wounds

CSM cause 3.49 wounds

Berzerker Champion causes 1.41 wounds

Berzerkers cause 1.84 wounds

 

#7 Scenario: Berzerkers assault the CSM with Dirge Caster nearby, disoriented charge

Berzerkers fire and kill 1.06 CSM on average

CSM get no Overwatch

Berzerker Champion causes 1.16 wounds

Berzerkers cause 1.96 wounds

Aspiring Champions causes 1.07 wounds

Chaos Space Marines cause 2.17 wounds

 

#8 Scenario: CSM assault the Berzerkers with Dirge Caster nearby, disoriented charge

CSM fire and kill 3.06 Berzerkers on average

Berzerkers get no Overwatch

Aspiring Champion causes 0.75 wounds

CSM cause 1.66 wounds

Berzerker Champion causes 1.41 wounds

Berzerkers cause 1.84 wounds

 

#9 Scenario: CSM and Berzerkers are both in assault with neither side getting shooting or overwatch, with challenges being issued by someone else and with charging side making a disoriented charge.

Berzerker Champion causes 1.16 wounds

Berzerkers cause 1.96 wounds

Aspiring Champion causes 0.75 wounds

CSM cause 1.66 wounds

 

Total Wounds caused:

 

#1 Scenario: Berzerkers 8.05, CSM 4.14

#2 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.44, CSM 7.98

#1-#2 Scenario: Berzerker 11.49, CSM 12.12

 

#3 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.99, CSM 4.14

#4 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.44, CSM 5.44

#3-#4 Scenario: Berzerkers 7.43, CSM 9.58

 

#5 Scenario: Berzerkers 8.56, CSM 3.24

#6 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.25, CSM 8.05

#5-#6 Scenario: Berzerkers 11.81, CSM 11.29

 

#7 Scenario: Berzerkers 4.18, CSM 3.24

#8 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.25, CSM 5.47

#7-#8 Scenario: Berzerkers 7.43, CSM 8.71

 

#9 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.12, CSM 2.41

 

#1-#9 Total: Berzerkers 41.28, CSM 44.11

[Kol Saresk]

So the math says that CSM will cause more wounds when it is CSM vs Berzerkers but only if it is a perfect game with the CSM suffering no loss of flamers and the flamers can target all ten Berzerker models correct? What if it is the usual ten man CSM squad versus the ten man Berzerkers? Is there a drastic difference? How do the numbers change as models are lost on both sides?

 

For example, after scenario #1, there would be two situations, either five Berzerkers(lost Champion in challenge) and four CSM or six Berzerkers(Champion won) and three CSM. In that situation, how drastic would the changes be if say the CSM countercharged the Berzerkers?

 

What would a side by side comparison of CSM vs Grey Hunters and Khorne Berzerkers vs GH look like? Would the numbers look similar or would there be any kind of significant difference?

[Polaria]

So the math says that CSM will cause more wounds when it is CSM vs Berzerkers but only if it is a perfect game with the CSM suffering no loss of flamers and the flamers can target all ten Berzerker models correct?

 

Flamers don't have to target all ten berzerkers, but they need to be able to cause at least 5-6 hits per flamer, preferably 6. If you position the flamers badly and can't get more than 4 models under the template then you are unlikely to cause enough casualties in the shooting to make up for the higher WS of Berzerkers.

 

 

What if it is the usual ten man CSM squad versus the ten man Berzerkers? Is there a drastic difference? How do the numbers change as models are lost on both sides?

 

10 CSM are inferior to 10 Berzerkers in every way. The difference is not big if the CSM play a perfect game with the templates, but it is there. Then again they are also cheaper for points so... Really the more important thing than which one you run is how well you can protect your Champion and how well you can use grenades and flamers.

 

 

For example, after scenario #1, there would be two situations, either five Berzerkers(lost Champion in challenge) and four CSM or six Berzerkers(Champion won) and three CSM. In that situation, how drastic would the changes be if say the CSM countercharged the Berzerkers?

 

In math the Counter-Assault is calculated as a extra 0.84 attacks per model, but in real situation that is never so. You either get it or you don't. Counter-Assault really makes or breakes the defenders fight. The Aspiring Champion, even with LC, is barely a match for Rage fuelled, Furious Charging Berzerker Champion and if Berzerker Champion wins then the next round will see the CSM slaughtered by his Lightning Claws. In any case the Berzerkers have a slight advantage if combat drag beyond first round. This is simply because if CSM ever lose a round they have to take morale tests with significant risk of being destroyed by sweeping advance.

 

 

What would a side by side comparison of CSM vs Grey Hunters and Khorne Berzerkers vs GH look like? Would the numbers look similar or would there be any kind of significant difference?

 

Grey Hunters don't have Rage, but have Counter-Assault so they are clearly inferior to both Khorne CSM and Berzerkers when assaulting single targets. When being assaulted or when doing a disoriented charge they are equal to Khorne marked CSM except for the fact that they don't come with in-build Champion, so unless they have a WolfGuard attached they have only Ld8 which is a significant hindrance to passing Counter-Assault Ld check. However, if the fight drags on they slightly get better than Khorne CSM as their ATSKNF makes them effectively immune to sweeping advance.

[Kol Saresk]

What would a side by side comparison of CSM vs Grey Hunters and Khorne Berzerkers vs GH look like? Would the numbers look similar or would there be any kind of significant difference?

 

Grey Hunters don't have Rage, but have Counter-Assault so they are clearly inferior to both Khorne CSM and Berzerkers when assaulting single targets. When being assaulted or when doing a disoriented charge they are equal to Khorne marked CSM except for the fact that they don't come with in-build Champion, so unless they have a WolfGuard attached they have only Ld8 which is a significant hindrance to passing Counter-Assault Ld check. However, if the fight drags on they slightly get better than Khorne CSM as their ATSKNF makes them effectively immune to sweeping advance.

Hmm, I think you misunderstood me on this part. In your example, you did a side-by-side comparison of Khorne CSM and Berzerkers with both units facing each other. How would that side-by-side look if both units were instead facing another unit, such as Grey Hunters? Would the Berzerkers and Khorne CSM still put out the same wounds as they did before or would it change the numbers in any significant way, like Khorne CSM perform even better(or worse) than Berzerkers against that unit on average?

[Polaria]

What would a side by side comparison of CSM vs Grey Hunters and Khorne Berzerkers vs GH look like? Would the numbers look similar or would there be any kind of significant difference?

 

Grey Hunters don't have Rage, but have Counter-Assault so they are clearly inferior to both Khorne CSM and Berzerkers when assaulting single targets. When being assaulted or when doing a disoriented charge they are equal to Khorne marked CSM except for the fact that they don't come with in-build Champion, so unless they have a WolfGuard attached they have only Ld8 which is a significant hindrance to passing Counter-Assault Ld check. However, if the fight drags on they slightly get better than Khorne CSM as their ATSKNF makes them effectively immune to sweeping advance.

Hmm, I think you misunderstood me on this part. In your example, you did a side-by-side comparison of Khorne CSM and Berzerkers with both units facing each other. How would that side-by-side look if both units were instead facing another unit, such as Grey Hunters? Would the Berzerkers and Khorne CSM still put out the same wounds as they did before or would it change the numbers in any significant way, like Khorne CSM perform even better(or worse) than Berzerkers against that unit on average?

 

It would depend a lot on the type of Grey Hunter unit. Does it have a Character? With what weapon? Any special weapons in it? I could try to do a quick side-by-side comparison if you give a target unit to compare against. On very general level I'd say that if the target unit has ATSKNF then Berzerkers are always better due to not taking morale checks and getting swept if you happen to roll badly on your saves...

[Kol Saresk]

Let's try these guys out:

I believe it comes out to 278 points so while much more expensive than the Chaos units, it has the same amount of models as the Berzerker squad.

Wolf Guard with combi-melta, powerfist

9 Grey Hunters, melta gun, powerfist, mark of the wulfen, wolf standard

[Polaria]

As you asked about the Khorne CSM squads... Well, here is the results of all 9 scenarios added together with 10 men units on both sides:

 

#1 Scenario: Berzerkers 8.17, CSM 3.45

#2 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.44, CSM 7.15

#1-#2 Scenario: Berzerker 11.61, CSM 10.60

 

#3 Scenario: Berzerkers 4.03, CSM 3.45

#4 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.44, CSM 4.94

#3-#4 Scenario: Berzerkers 7.47, CSM 8.39

 

#5 Scenario: Berzerkers 8.56, CSM 2.77

#6 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.25, CSM 7.15

#5-#6 Scenario: Berzerkers 11.81, CSM 9.92

 

#7 Scenario: Berzerkers 4.18, CSM 2.77

#8 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.25, CSM 4.95

#7-#8 Scenario: Berzerkers 7.43, CSM 7.72

 

#9 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.12, CSM 2.05

 

#1-#9 Total: Berzerkers 41.44, CSM 38.68

 

 

The point-for-wounds effectivity:

 

10-man Berzerker unit vs. 10-man KCSM unit

Berzerkers: 19.27 wounds /100 pts

Khorne CSM: 20.91 wounds /100 pts

 

10-man Berzerker unit vs. 12-man KCSM unit

Berzerkers: 19.20 wounds /100 pts

Khorne CSM: 20.52 wounds /100 pts

 

 

 

Let's try these guys out:

I believe it comes out to 278 points so while much more expensive than the Chaos units, it has the same amount of models as the Berzerker squad.

Wolf Guard with combi-melta, powerfist

9 Grey Hunters, melta gun, powerfist, mark of the wulfen, wolf standard

 

Sure thing. I'll put it against 10-man Berzerker team (215 points) and 10-man KCSM team (185 points). Have to warn you though that it will take some time to hammer it out as the Wolves you threw in have seriously many variables in them... ;)

[Kol Saresk]

As you asked about the Khorne CSM squads... Well, here is the results of all 9 scenarios added together with 10 men units on both sides:

 

#1 Scenario: Berzerkers 8.17, CSM 3.45

#2 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.44, CSM 7.15

#1-#2 Scenario: Berzerker 11.61, CSM 10.60

 

#3 Scenario: Berzerkers 4.03, CSM 3.45

#4 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.44, CSM 4.94

#3-#4 Scenario: Berzerkers 7.47, CSM 8.39

 

#5 Scenario: Berzerkers 8.56, CSM 2.77

#6 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.25, CSM 7.15

#5-#6 Scenario: Berzerkers 11.81, CSM 9.92

 

#7 Scenario: Berzerkers 4.18, CSM 2.77

#8 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.25, CSM 4.95

#7-#8 Scenario: Berzerkers 7.43, CSM 7.72

 

#9 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.12, CSM 2.05

 

#1-#9 Total: Berzerkers 41.44, CSM 38.68

 

 

The point-for-wounds effectivity:

 

10-man Berzerker unit vs. 10-man KCSM unit

Berzerkers: 19.27 wounds /100 pts

Khorne CSM: 20.91 wounds /100 pts

 

10-man Berzerker unit vs. 12-man KCSM unit

Berzerkers: 19.20 wounds /100 pts

Khorne CSM: 20.52 wounds /100 pts

So in either situation, both groups are almost equal in the end tally, whether it be a ten man or a twelve man Khorne CSM

 

 

Let's try these guys out:

I believe it comes out to 278 points so while much more expensive than the Chaos units, it has the same amount of models as the Berzerker squad.

Wolf Guard with combi-melta, powerfist

9 Grey Hunters, melta gun, powerfist, mark of the wulfen, wolf standard

 

Sure thing. I'll put it against 10-man Berzerker team (215 points) and 10-man KCSM team (185 points). Have to warn you though that it will take some time to hammer it out as the Wolves you threw in have seriously many variables in them... ;)

Well, since most of the comparisons are side-by-sides of Grey Hunters and then our units, I was wondering if we could see instead which of our units between these two may or may not be more effective against the unit they are being compared to. And take your time, you don't have to do it.

[Polaria]

Okay, I took a little shortcut and only counted the amount of damage our units do to the GH in assault, but didn't look into how much we take damage back. Mainly it drops the amount of math into fraction of what calculating mark of wolfen and wolf standard and whatever would be. Besides, since the shooting and overwatch ARE taken into account and power fists are slower than our attacks then whoever causes most damage will take least damage in returns because they have higher likelihood of killing of the Grey Hunter power fists before they hit.

 

I'll leave the complete math out and calculate the final results divided by amount of scenarios played so they can be compared:

 

10-man Berzerker unit vs. 10-man KCSM unit

Berzerkers: 2.14 wounds/turn/100 pts

Khorne CSM: 2.32 wounds/turn/100 pts

 

10-man Berzerker unit vs. 12-man KCSM unit

Berzerkers: 2.13 wounds/turn/100 pts

Khorne CSM: 2.28 wounds/turn/100 pts

 

10-man Berzerker unit or 10-man KCSM unit vs. 10-man Grey Hunters unit

Berzerkers: 2.67 wounds/turn/100 pts

Khorne CSM: 2.71 wounds/turn/100 pts

 

Now really interesting thing is that the difference between Berzerkers and Khorne CSM against Grey Hunters are next to nothing. The difference is less than 2%. Which means that against Grey Hunters the 10-men squad of Berzerkers is ALWAYS a better option than 10-men squad of Khorne marked CSM. Yes the KCSM do cause 2% more damage on the average, but they run a risk of collapsing and running away or being swept away if the dice gods do not favour you on one turn or other.

[Cheex]

I think it's hard to argue that Berzerkers are clearly better in combat than Khorne CSM. But to me, that's not the attraction of CSM; they're not meant to be awesome close combat units. They're supposed to be flexible, while still being above average in combat. CSM have the advantage of having access to bolters and special weapons, giving them an edge in flexibility. In your scenario, you're assuming that both units are barrelling towards each other just to reach combat; in reality, a flexible CSM squad has the option to pull back while firing its bolters for a turn or two, maybe scoring an extra couple of casualties before being forced to charge or be charged. Berzerkers do not have that option; they are good at exactly one thing. IMHO, taking CSM without bolters or some kind of ranged option removes their main advantage over Berzerkers. The only time I'd swap the bolters out for CCWs is if I wanted them to be as cheap as possible, with minimal upgrades, to simply swamp the enemy with bodies (in which case I'd also give the unit the Icon of Vengeance as well).

 

Another important distinction to make is whether the damage output of each unit is enough for each unit to be useful in combat. Ten Berzerkers with a power weapon/fist Champion run the risk of destroying their target in the assault (on average, causing 8+ casualties against Marines); ten CSM, while cheaper, are less likely wipe out their opponent on the charge, which is usually a good thing.

 

As you've brought up, though, the Fearless rule is a big factor in the favour of Berzerkers. As such, Berzerkers work well on their own, while CSM need either an Icon of Vengeance or an attached Chaos Lord to make them Fearless.

 

So if you want pure damage output in close combat, go Berzerkers. If you want something more flexible that can then plug the line if need be, or if you want cheap power-armoured bodies (particularly as a bodyguard for an IC), go CSM. I think a combination of the two will likely be a better option than simply saying that X is better than Y.

[Kol Saresk]

So essentially what the choice between the two would come down to is special weapons and maybe points cost, although by the time the 10-man upgrades to plasma like people are wanting to do the price is only 6 points which may or may not even get used. Although if you get the very common 8-man Berzerker squad which will probably see a decrease in performance that is similar in the decrease from the 12-man MoKCSM to 10-man MoKCSM, which looks to be entirely negligible so it probably won't even make that much of a difference but will save you some points making the cost of the Zerker squad shown to be 177 versus the ten man CSM squad shown without plasma as 189 and then 209 with plasma. Which would actually make the Zerkers most cost effective and you can use the points somewhere else in the form of an HQ escort, some upgrades for a different unit or even into allies or an ADL with a quad.

[Polaria]

I did the complete math (including how much Space Wolves would cause damage back) for the assault scenarios and the short version of results is here:

 

10 Berzerkers – 215 points

Berzerker Champion has a Lightning Claw

 

10 Chaos Space Marines – 185 points

Close combat weapons instead of bolters, Mark of Khorne

Aspiring Champion has a Lightning Claw

2 flamers

 

10 Grey Hunters – 278 points

Wolf Guard with combi-melta, powerfist

9 Grey Hunters, melta gun, powerfist, mark of the wulfen, wolf standard

 

Total Wounds caused:

 

#1 Scenario: Berzerkers 8.19, SW 4.20

#3 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.80, SW 4.20

#5 Scenario: Berzerkers 8.56, SW 5.70

#7 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.80, SW 4.44

#9 Scenario: Berzerkers 8.56, SW 3.55

#11 Scenario: Berzerkers 4.18, SW 3.55

#13 Scenario: Berzerkers 3.12, SW 2.49

Total: Berzerkers 40.25, SW 28.13

 

#2 Scenario: CSM 7.02, SW 3.60

#4 Scenario: CSM 3.38, SW 3.60

#6 Scenario: CSM 7.15, SW 5.53

#8 Scenario: CSM 3.38, SW 4.38

#10 Scenario: CSM 7.15, SW 3.05

#12 Scenario: CSM 4.94, SW 4.01

#14 Scenario: CSM 2.05, SW 3.16

Total: CSM 35.07, SW 27.33

 

Now what is interesting here is that in comparison to the amount of points that went into that Grey Hunter unit they are quite ineffective in actual close combat against both Berzerkers and KCSM. The only scenarios where they cause more wounds that opposing chaos unit is when there is a disoriented charge or everyone just ends up into close-combat with no shooting, no overwatch, no assault bonuses or anything (countercharge into on-going melee with disoriented charge). Even in those situations the Grey Hunters barely get ahead. When the chaos assaults on its own terms, it usually crushes the Grey Hunters. Thats the effect of Rage and having Flamers and Lightning Claws against being a Space Puppy and waiting with a Power Fist and hoping you won't be killed. ;)

 

Another thing worth noting is that Wolf Standard was used in every scenario for calculating Grey Hunter damage. in reality they can only use it once, so in any longer fight their effectivity would go down faster.

 

Lesson of the story: If you want to crush your enemy in close-combat do not be a Space Puppy, instead embrace Khorne. :P

[Slayer le Boucher]

CSm or Zerkers arn't better then the other, they complete each other, i play both, Legionnaires(CSM) and Zerkers, and i'm satisfied.

[Kol Saresk]

That is definitely one way to take it. But as Polaria has said, this was basically done to show whether or not Khorne Berzerkers were inferior to CSM as that is the main argument against them(the Berzerkers). If anything, this shows that the two are equal in almost every regard to each other and apparently are superior to what is supposed to be a highly recommended tournament level Grey Hunters squad, which is one of the standards we use to compare our Codex too. I imagine that if we did it against Grey Knights or a CC-oriented Troops unit from another Codex, the math-hammer might show it to be statistically inferior, on a picture perfect basis at any rate. At least, it was a highly recommended squad according to this ARTICLE. Although it was written in 5th Edition, a quick run-through the Space Wolf Army Lists can show that there isn't any real difference between this squad and the current ones except maybe plasma on some lists.

[Polaria]

Throw me a Grey Knight squad for comparison and when I've got time I can do the same math as I did for the Wolves. I would imagine that especially if Halberds are involved the Chaos will get kicked to dust... the only question remaining is which unit gets kicked more.

[Kol Saresk]

Nah, you've done enough work already man. Besides, we already got our answer. Berzerkers aren't inferior to Khorne CSM and the points efficiency is negligible. It's what you want to do with them. Which is either straight up CC, short-medium ranged flexibility(CSM) or someway to have the two compliment each other as Slayer suggested. So take a break cuz you earned it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I currently play my Khorne army with each of these units. The advantage of Khorne Marines in my opinion is access to bolters and a flamer (I just run one special weapon)... I've learned that bolters can win games. Berserkers have the following advantages - Fearless, WS5 and Furious Charge. I give Berserkers a slight edge mostly due to being Fearless. Both units are very good.

 

G ^_^

[Cheex]

See, here's the issue I have with pure mathhammer: it only takes into account a specific scenario. In this scenario, you're pitting what should be an all-rounder unit against close combat specialists, and you're only really taking assault into account (with the exception of a single shooting phase for each). That's not how CSM work. They can swap their bolter for a CCW, but that doesn't mean they become Berzerker-level assault units. I don't think anyone has ever said that CSM are better in combat than Berzerkers, so you can't just fling them together and look at the results.

 

What people like about KCSM is their flexibility. Berzerkers are stuck in exactly one role: charge. KCSM are capable of charging - though aren't as efficient at it, as you've noted - but are also capable of remaining mobile with their bolters and maybe a couple of plasma guns, especially thanks to the new rapid fire rules.

 

And since Berzerkers can really only be used for assault, they need something to actually reach assault. This means Land Raiders (I've had some good success using two - pricey, but reliable), or some kind of effective shield (I've heard of allied Chimeras being used for this). They don't really suit Rhinos too well, since they have to stand around for at least one turn after disembarking, even if their transport was destroyed. KCSM, on the other hand, are fine with Rhinos (barring any Shaken or Stunned results). This means that Berzerkers need another points investment in order to keep them effective.

 

Personally, my army has a mix of the two, and I find they work well together. The KCSM have a pair of plasma guns (and a combi-plas on the champion), while the Berzerkers are pretty cheap and are mounted in Land Raiders. The Berzerkers reliably reach combat every time, and decimate whatever their targets are; the KCSM follow up and can join in assaults when needed, or can add their firepower to bring down tougher targets (like Terminators) before the Berzerkers charge. It's worked pretty well so far.

[Polaria]

I don't think anyone has ever said that CSM are better in combat than Berzerkers...

 

Well, that is exactly what I've seen said over and over. If you have never seen anyone claim that KCSM are point-for-point better at assaulting stuff than Berzerkers then you have missed quite a bit of the discussion regarding Berzerkers in general.

 

By the way, the math hammer did pretty much prove that KCSM are infact a bit better per point than Berzerkers in combat... But only if you know how to use them correctly and can do so.

 

 

What people like about KCSM is their flexibility. Berzerkers are stuck in exactly one role: charge. KCSM are capable of charging - though aren't as efficient at it, as you've noted - but are also capable of remaining mobile with their bolters and maybe a couple of plasma guns, especially thanks to the new rapid fire rules.

 

Flexibility is a great thing to have on a unit but CSM are not Space Marines and will never be. Space Marines are the king of flexibility because ATSKNF makes them risk free. They can take horrible casualties, botch their leadership rolls repeatedly and you still won't lose them. CSM and don't have that immunity so with them you need to WIN. This is important in shooting and absolutely critical in assault. And to win, preferably with overwhelming numbers, you can't throw too many points into trying to be good in everything. Sometimes its far better to save points, be good in one thing and suck at everything else. With CSM its all too easy to get carried away with the options and stack huge number of points into unit that is kinda like Grey Hunters but will still crumble without ATSKNF.

[zyl-]

wow, i'm necroposting here, but..

 

Shouldn't we give the Kcsm meltaguns for a comparison, as these are far more common to see than flamers (at least in my meta). Also, people are worried more about TeQ and GeQ threats in a real world. Should we be calculating for that as well?

[Polaria]

I can probably make the calculations for TEQ and GEQ threats if you provide some sort of baseline for a typical TEQ or GEQ opponent... Like are we talking about 5 or 10 men of TEQ with stormbolters and power fists or what? And what kind of GEQ squad are we charging? 20 IG with flamers? 10 Veterans with meltaguns?