Polythemus Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Mods this post will include rumored points cost based on speculation. So now that we are starting to see some details in terms of points and specifics i think we can safely open the debate on list building for the new DA. It would appear with the current base points cost display on the images in the rumors page that at 220 dw tactical and 225 dw knights (dwk). It is unclear at this point if deathwing itself will still be a points viable build. It seems that the impending points cost for hammernators will mean that specific build is dead. If they are 5 pts as rumored then that build will be 245. I am going to speculate that this means we will see a lot fewer deathwing builds inspite of the split fire rule. The other possibility we may see is knights taking the place of hammernators, though these may not be able to be changed into troops. It is likely that this is GW's goal in order to reduce spam. It will remain to be seen how these lists will develop, but I think it is safe to say the hammernator list is dead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.L.E.X Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 DW builds are still viable even with point increases. You will just have to be less careless with them. Ive found my magic number at 15 in a dual wing build with sammy and belial 3 speeders 3x3 melta bikes and 3 attack bikes. Without sammy I could have added another 5man but always preffered sammy for his Mobility Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoaDirty Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 We have a blurry photo of the Elites page and you are writing off DW? Way to jump to conclusions. If you can add single models to the original DW squad allowing you to field 6 or 7 man terminator squads, I think DW gets better. And we had already seen a shift away from all TH/SS squads, so an extra 15 points is not a deal breaker. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Death of Greenwing, death of Deathwing? OK I suppose the next thread with be the death of Ravenwing. I am a little sick of these doom and gloom threads... If when the codex is out and these are true then we can perform funeral rites and bury them with dignity. Until then I think we need to rein in all this negativity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 First the end of "Greenwing" now the end of Deathwing. Next up: Ravenwing meet it's doom. ;) C'mon people... what's with the doom and gloom posts lately? Why are some of you so eager to write off something based on rumors and blurry pics? I'm sure DW will survive.. it will evolve and adapt to meet any changes, like it always did. There was a time were DW were at least 300 points per squad with restricted options and they still were played... I rest my case. Arkley ninja'ed me while I was writing this. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ba5eball Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I think this is the exact opposite. It seems like regular DW are going to be able to lay down more fire power, with PC and split fire, perhaps more weapons we dont know about, reducing the need for mortis dreads or regular land raiders for long range fire power. Perhaps the DWK will be the CC bosses, it looks like it from their models and rumors. I haven't seen the codex at all, but I'm kind of guessing they increased the heavy weapons limit, otherwise split fire wouldn't make much sense. As for the "hammernator list," I don't think the DA, or the community in general, will lose anything if they aren't possible/viable. I always disliked hammernators myself, they just don't have the badass factor that assault cannons or lightning claws have IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 The Deathwing is dead, long live the Deathwing! Really, just because one specific build is possibly not viable anymore doesn't mean that its the end of things. If anything, the Lion would be against getting stuck on one specific tactic. Imo, a more firepower-oriented capacity would be right up my sleeve. Just imagine the look on your opponent's face when you put 30-odd terminators onto the battlefield during deployment (standard 1.5k list). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 The Ironwing is dead! Deeeaaad I say! There. We went full circle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkangeldentist Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I can possibly see the end of the (as you described it) hammernator list becoming obsolete but to say it's the end of Deathwing lists before the full rules and options have been made clear is over-reacting. Greenwing looks like they will be fine in the new dex (whatever people may fear simply the fact veterans are still in and their costs and rules imply that tacticals will be more attractive choices than before is grounds for a little faith) and I really can't see Deathwing or Ravenwing falling by the wayside either. So far Deathwing appear to have been expanded to be able to field at least 3 different types of squad all with different rules, costs and options and all look damned tasty from just the rumours we've gleaned so far. Regular Deathwing seem like they will remain the mainstay all purpose terminators we all love but with increased flexibility and by the looks of it finally some choice about squad size. Deathwing knights look to be combat specialists of a type not yet seen in marines, even if those maces are just power mauls they will be a scarily power combat choice against almost anything due to the number of wounds they will likely inflict and at I4. With storm shields they will be able to slug it out with almost anything and their starting price makes them look incredibly viable. Plus we aren't 100% sure about their wealth of special rules. The command squad rumours have so far painted a picture that would worry even grey knight paladins and that makes me smile! :) Costs may be unknown and likely to be through the roof but if what we've already seen is anything to go by then they will have a role and be suited to it. I am looking forward to them a lot. Lastly we are still waiting for Belial's full rules and equipment to be spilled and how Deathwing lists may or may not be allowed within the new codex. How (or if you really are all doom and gloom, if) Deathwing only lists will be allowed in the new book is unknown but if the chaos book is anything to go by then there's a decent chance the character entry will just require terminator armour on your warlord. Belial appears to have lost his wargear options but looking at the images of Sammael's entry he should be both well equipped and rather more fittingly unique as deserving of a special character. The rumours at least indicate he has some special rules of his own this time around. Deathwing will endure I am sure, both as a pure terminator only list and as a compliment other elements of the Dark angels chapter. (Which is exactly as they should be!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 my big worry for you guys is that the new dex will be so full of awesome everyone will be running green (insert army here) terminator armies.. counts as rule, badwagonners incoming. which is sad becuase i wanted to counts as my scouts to get some tasty dedicated land speeder storms... i dont want to be a sheep among the masses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGumbo Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 At the risk of repeating what's already been said: the death of one specific build at one specific points cost does not signify the wider death of anything. At this rate, there will be a thread started just before the codex drops claiming that actually we'd be better off sticking with our much maligned current book, as the new Codex will, in fact, be the death of the Dark Angels chapter entirely. (Here's hoping it doesn't turn out to be Codex: Fallen ;)) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 The death of patience is certainly evident. I'm going to wait until the codex drops before I agree or disagree with such sweeping statements. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 220 for basic DW is quite tenable for a squad that can split fire, choose to deepstrike on the first or second turn and has a large number of different build options (plus several rules we don't even know the effect of yet!). They are only one point more than a similarly-armed Wolf Guard terminator (and have cheaper CCW upgrades). Split Fire is a force multiplier that makes them efficient at targeting exactly what they want. Now they can focus fire where it will have the most effect, there small numbers are no longer as large an issue as they were in any previous codex. Deathwing Knights come in at 235 but the upside is that they are a squad that requires little or no extra upgrades (not that they have many, I believe the Flail and Relic are the only two... maybe the Halberd). For that basic cost they hit like a truck in close combat (my reading of fuzzy codex entries is that the basic Knights have 2 attacks and the Master Knight has 3). They can form a T5 2+/3++ shield wall, they can choose a turn in the game to strike at S10 AP2 at initiative, these guys are full on line breakers that can outperform Hammernators when it counts. The combination of rules that make them better in assault and more survivable is great, little is wasted. Compared to other Hammernator squads they are fairly effectively priced (save for compared to BT and vanilla squads, but they need a little something) And we don't know what the command squad is like yet so I wont comment. In the end the main things we need to compare Deathwing-only forces to are Loganwing and Draigowing. And in comparison to those, we are more flexible (better shooters, better on assault, better options for dedicated transports). And this is putting aside that outside of the TH/SS upgrade, we don't know what our other weapon choices cost yet. I think it is a little early to say they are dead. Deathwing survived half an edition of being costed at 52 points with no invulnerable save in an edition with the Eldar Craftworld codex... I don't think they will have much trouble this go around. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kovash Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 A modest point increase wouldn't stop me from playing Deathwing. We should all be used to paying extra for our units by now. I've always have mixed units anyway; there isn't a single dedicated squad of TH/SS within my army. I feel that it's going to be a lot of fun trying out new lists and figuring new ways to take advantage of all the options we'll be getting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain sox Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 It's so funny. People cry for a new dex. Then people cry about the new dex. No surprise there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 It's so funny. People cry for a new dex. Then people cry about the new dex. No surprise there. Its pure overreaction B), I have never got the tournament scene. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I agree with the DW dead actually. Split fire? how is that going to be useful? Unless I'm mistaken, you only get 1 heavy per 5 terminators, meaning that the rest of what you fire will be storm bolters. While this helps the efficiency of tactical DW terminators, assualt DW terminators or mixed DW terminators are stuck with a USR that a USR that isn't very efficient. I'd rather it had been an upgrade that is paid for, rather than forcing me to take something I don't want. The increased price for storm shields isn't something that was unexpected, but still hurts us. The 3++ really helps against the increase of plasma that's been seen. You can't even make the most of cover, because DW are hopefully going to retain fearless, meaning you can't gtg to improve your cover save. Deathwing Knights seem like another inefficient unit. Either you deep strike them and your opponent gets a round of shooting against a scary 250ish pt target, or you put them in a land raider and drive them up, spending 500pts on one low-end deathstar unit, not leaving you with many points to get the toys you want, and enough DW troops to be functional. Walking them up leaves you with the same problem that deep striking has, your opponent shoots them off the board. I've played many games where 4 out of my 5 terminator squads are gone by the end of the game and increasing the price of DW isn't going to help that at all. Given all of that, I don't think Dark Angels as a whole are done for. In fact, quite the opposite. DA are likely going to be a strong army. The problem I have, is that playing a pure DW force isn't going to be a decently competitive option any more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 The problem I have, is that playing a pure DW force isn't going to be a decently competitive option any more. And thats the rub right there... Its purely about the Tournaments. I am so happy I don't play any more :P.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion El Jason Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Split fire is good, I am assuming it works like it did before they stopped it in 4th ed but having played Deathwing a lot back then I can tell you that being able to shoot one target and assault another is amazing. It also brings the heavy flamer back into usefulness. To be honest, I have never known Deathwing to be called particularly "Competitive" but I have been doing well with them for 15 years so I don't care. The simple fact is that the rest of the meta determines how well DW do, not the DW stats or abilities. Thats just how Skew lists work (And make no mistake, DW is a skew list). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I agree with the DW dead actually. Split fire? how is that going to be useful? Unless I'm mistaken, you only get 1 heavy per 5 terminators, meaning that the rest of what you fire will be storm bolters. Would you rather that those storm bolters are aimed at the vehicle your cyclone is firing at? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I agree with the DW dead actually. Split fire? how is that going to be useful? Unless I'm mistaken, you only get 1 heavy per 5 terminators, meaning that the rest of what you fire will be storm bolters. While this helps the efficiency of tactical DW terminators, assualt DW terminators or mixed DW terminators are stuck with a USR that a USR that isn't very efficient. I'd rather it had been an upgrade that is paid for, rather than forcing me to take something I don't want. it's a "free" USR so you're not stuck with it... You didn't have it previously and they're not charging points for it so it's added value even if you don't use it in some squads. Most of the squads will have some elements of shooting anyway so it will come in handy to fire SB's to one target and cyclones to another. Deathwing Knights seem like another inefficient unit. Either you deep strike them and your opponent gets a round of shooting against a scary 250ish pt target, or you put them in a land raider and drive them up, spending 500pts on one low-end deathstar unit, not leaving you with many points to get the toys you want, and enough DW troops to be functional. Walking them up leaves you with the same problem that deep striking has, your opponent shoots them off the board. I've played many games where 4 out of my 5 terminator squads are gone by the end of the game and increasing the price of DW isn't going to help that at all. Nothing new on that front. We always had a DW deathstar unit (the DW squad with banner and apoth) and now we can have two deathstars meaning that opponents will have a bigger headache and at least one deathstar and the rest of the army will be somewhat free to do their work. I see the glass half full here. playing a pure DW force isn't going to be a decently competitive option any more. They never were a decently competitive option, excluding some metagaming environments so they'll either stay the same or they'll improve. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Wow, let's wait until the Codex is out before we bury the Deathwing :D. You're making me seriously depressed with this attitude when we should be anticipating a new dawn. I see new experimentation with new units and not just 20 hammernators plonked on the table -- which lets face it was pretty unimaginative wasn't it? DW was never meant to be like that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 The problem I have, is that playing a pure DW force isn't going to be a decently competitive option any more. And thats the rub right there... Its purely about the Tournaments. I am so happy I don't play any more :D.... I don't think I mentioned anything about tournaments in that post... Believe it or not, 40k is a competitive game, that is, not a cooperative game. You have an opponent, and both of you square off on 6x4 table. Why is playing to win such a bad thing? Split fire is good, I am assuming it works like it did before they stopped it in 4th ed but having played Deathwing a lot back then I can tell you that being able to shoot one target and assault another is amazing. It also brings the heavy flamer back into usefulness. To be honest, I have never known Deathwing to be called particularly "Competitive" but I have been doing well with them for 15 years so I don't care. The simple fact is that the rest of the meta determines how well DW do, not the DW stats or abilities. Thats just how Skew lists work (And make no mistake, DW is a skew list). Split fire allows one model to fire at a different target after it passes a leadership test. I don't really see how this makes HF that much more useful, since their primary problem was their range. Why take a weapon that's only effective within 8" when I can have weapons that are effective at 24" or 48"? Now my weapons are effective if I'm walking up the field or if I choose to deep strike them, I can do so outside 8" with a smaller margin for mishap. DW do well because they're efficient. 235 for 5 fearless terminators with a 3++ invul and a CML? Yes, please. The new codex is changing that. It's something everyone knew was going to happen Other armies pay for storm shields, and CMLs are more expensive now that they're more effective. However, it would have been nice to have the base cost of DW reduced, seeing as there have been point reductions for many armies of late. All of the USRs in the world aren't going to make them more survivable (with the exception of FNP) and bloating them with USRs that aren't really necessary is just going to mean that I can field less of them. The solution is simple, USRs should be a unit upgrade, rather than something we're just given. Like I said, it looks like the new codex is going to be great, but it appears DW armies aren't going to be any better than they are now (in fact, it looks like they'll be the weakest build in the codex). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I agree with the DW dead actually. Split fire? how is that going to be useful? Unless I'm mistaken, you only get 1 heavy per 5 terminators, meaning that the rest of what you fire will be storm bolters. While this helps the efficiency of tactical DW terminators, assualt DW terminators or mixed DW terminators are stuck with a USR that a USR that isn't very efficient. I'd rather it had been an upgrade that is paid for, rather than forcing me to take something I don't want. it's a "free" USR so you're not stuck with it... You didn't have it previously and they're not charging points for it so it's added value even if you don't use it in some squads. Most of the squads will have some elements of shooting anyway so it will come in handy to fire SB's to one target and cyclones to another. Deathwing Knights seem like another inefficient unit. Either you deep strike them and your opponent gets a round of shooting against a scary 250ish pt target, or you put them in a land raider and drive them up, spending 500pts on one low-end deathstar unit, not leaving you with many points to get the toys you want, and enough DW troops to be functional. Walking them up leaves you with the same problem that deep striking has, your opponent shoots them off the board. I've played many games where 4 out of my 5 terminator squads are gone by the end of the game and increasing the price of DW isn't going to help that at all. Nothing new on that front. We always had a DW deathstar unit (the DW squad with banner and apoth) and now we can have two deathstars meaning that opponents will have a bigger headache and at least one deathstar and the rest of the army will be somewhat free to do their work. I see the glass half full here. playing a pure DW force isn't going to be a decently competitive option any more. They never were a decently competitive option, excluding some metagaming environments so they'll either stay the same or they'll improve. It's not free, DW cost 5 points more than the did before. Not much until you calculate the extra 10 points for the CML and 5 points per storm shield. That brings my preferred set up (CML, 4x TH/SS, SB/CF) from 240 to 275. That's huge when fielding 5 squads. DW were in fact fairly competitive. In the mech heavy meta of 5th there were few armies that could stand up to the amount of missiles that DW armies could put out and still deal with all the 2+/3++ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion El Jason Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Heavy Flamers are particularly bad as they have to kill all your assault targets. Being able to shoot another unit and then assault something closer was wondrous back in the day, I remember killing over 20 models in a round with it then more after combat results. I have always liked flamers, ever since I played an alaitoc ranger list with three heavy flamers and their 2+ cover saves did nothing. My opponents cries of "What? Nooo! Rangers are well flammable!" was one of my all time favourite 40k moments. Anyway, yeah split fire will be good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/268819-how-will-the-deathwing-change/#findComment-3274603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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