Brother Captain Arkley Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I don't think I mentioned anything about tournaments in that post... Believe it or not, 40k is a competitive game, that is, not a cooperative game. You have an opponent, and both of you square off on 6x4 table. Why is playing to win such a bad thing? You are right my bad :D... I don't think winning is a bad thing. What I think is bad is people jumping the gun before they even have the book. I look at the load outs of army lists at the moment and think god how boring, there is no variety its all.. Belail - THSS - 130DW squad - THSS x 5, CML - 235 DW squad - THSS x 5, CML - 235 DW squad - THSS x 5, CML - 235 DW squad - THSS x 5, CML - 235 Speeder - Typhoon/MM - 75 Speeder - Typhoon/MM - 75 Speeder - Typhoon/MM - 75 Predator - AC/HB - 95 Predator - AC/HB - 95 This is an example of a "competitive" list to me its just boring as hell. Then I look at Isiahs website and his Deathwing Squad loadouts and think if I play again I would use them. I don't deny you're desire to win what I rail against it the Doom & Gloom to something that has not even been released yet the dirge is being played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolfmeister Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 In the blurry pic DW Knights look to be 325 stock, not 225. Granted, it's blurry, but I see 325, not 225. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pbenner Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I picked up Deathwing because it looked interesting. The new Codex looks even more interesting than the old one, so I will pick it up as well. I am getting close to the point of downsizing all my 40k, but if I only kept one army, it would be my Deathwing. I currently have 55 Deathwing Terminators, mostly painted. I see myself buying a few of the new models, probably using them to replace my Sargents and build a new model unit. I have (5) Land Raiders that may see more use now, depending on what else is in the codex. Was hoping to see the Ares in the new sex, but oh well. Looks like a fun dex, will probably start playing more with it in hand. Best, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I agree with the DW dead actually. Split fire? how is that going to be useful? Unless I'm mistaken, you only get 1 heavy per 5 terminators, meaning that the rest of what you fire will be storm bolters. While this helps the efficiency of tactical DW terminators, assualt DW terminators or mixed DW terminators are stuck with a USR that a USR that isn't very efficient. I'd rather it had been an upgrade that is paid for, rather than forcing me to take something I don't want. it's a "free" USR so you're not stuck with it... You didn't have it previously and they're not charging points for it so it's added value even if you don't use it in some squads. Most of the squads will have some elements of shooting anyway so it will come in handy to fire SB's to one target and cyclones to another. Deathwing Knights seem like another inefficient unit. Either you deep strike them and your opponent gets a round of shooting against a scary 250ish pt target, or you put them in a land raider and drive them up, spending 500pts on one low-end deathstar unit, not leaving you with many points to get the toys you want, and enough DW troops to be functional. Walking them up leaves you with the same problem that deep striking has, your opponent shoots them off the board. I've played many games where 4 out of my 5 terminator squads are gone by the end of the game and increasing the price of DW isn't going to help that at all. Nothing new on that front. We always had a DW deathstar unit (the DW squad with banner and apoth) and now we can have two deathstars meaning that opponents will have a bigger headache and at least one deathstar and the rest of the army will be somewhat free to do their work. I see the glass half full here. playing a pure DW force isn't going to be a decently competitive option any more. They never were a decently competitive option, excluding some metagaming environments so they'll either stay the same or they'll improve. It's not free, DW cost 5 points more than the did before. Not much until you calculate the extra 10 points for the CML and 5 points per storm shield. That brings my preferred set up (CML, 4x TH/SS, SB/CF) from 240 to 275. That's huge when fielding 5 squads. DW were in fact fairly competitive. In the mech heavy meta of 5th there were few armies that could stand up to the amount of missiles that DW armies could put out and still deal with all the 2+/3++ Are you in possession of all the rules of DW and points cost to claim that the supposedly 5 point increase is just for the split fire USR? Why are you so quick to give up on something when you don't have all the facts? Wait until the codex is out before claiming outright that DW is dead. Maybe your playstyle and army composition will be obsolete, but you can't know for sure until the book is out. :rolleyes: As for DW competitiveness let's agree to disagree and move on. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Wow, let's wait until the Codex is out before we bury the Deathwing :rolleyes:. You're making me seriously depressed with this attitude when we should be anticipating a new dawn. I see new experimentation with new units and not just 20 hammernators plonked on the table -- which lets face it was pretty unimaginative wasn't it? DW was never meant to be like that. Or Dark Angels as a whole. Or wargaming in general, for that matter. Granted, certain builds should be more or less suitable in some situations, but in general it should be hard to make a list that either beats almost all, or loses to almost all, provided luck has nothing to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 The ravenwing is dead! Long live the tecnomarinewing! Sorry, had to say it... On my side, I'm doing a GT on the 20th (current dex) and will probably shelve the army for a couple months and go with other projects. Reason? Not only will everybody use the I've always been a DA" phrase but also I dont want to hear how broken our codex is (which will be until people figure out how to handle us). What do you guys say? Shall we wait until the codex actually comes out? For me the most interesting part of the codex, the one I REALLY look forward to is the first one after the fluff. Where you get the armywide rules. If what we get there is really good (and I have a feeling we might just have) and we get decent, polivalent troop choices, Ill be a happy panda! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I agree with the DW dead actually. Split fire? how is that going to be useful? Something that perhaps may be overlooked... If you Split fire, you can charge EITHER target that you fired at. So how is this useful? Most of the squad fires at target A, the rest at target B, You then charge target B. Because most of your ranged attack was at A, you dont need to worry as much about killing too many in the charge target, so that they end up out of charge range... It allows you to bring the pain to 2 different squads with a single squad. Now Lets look at a 10 man squad... combat squaded into 2 5 man squads, one with 2HW. Those 2 HW can now be fired at multiple targets... say something like 2 transports. You can then charge whichever one that you crack open. The tactical applications of Split fire are really very useful. I think the only reason that its not realized so much, is that the only squad with it so far is Longfangs, and they pretty much just hide and target 2 Vehicles/Squads a turn. Not very exciting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 +1 Split fire is going to be AWESOME. Told you the Mayans were right :) :tu: S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I agree with the DW dead actually. Split fire? how is that going to be useful? Unless I'm mistaken, you only get 1 heavy per 5 terminators, meaning that the rest of what you fire will be storm bolters. Yup that is 8 shots that used to be wasted if the squad fired on a vehicle that can now shred light infantry elements or force saves on heavier units. Either way this has allowed our shootier terminator squads to come to the fore. Remember that our current meta-favourite of TH/SS+CML squad was bound to be temporary. TH/SS were undercosted (thus the increase in the BA book) and when we got the CML upgrade we had the cheapest CML in the game. I know relying on an out-of-date codex that got a meta-game shift due to GW's method of never altering point values was nice for a while. But the writing was on the wall for that build. The only reason we became a blip on the meta was because a single build (and only a single build) had several key units that were way undercosted. Belial was 50+ points cheaper than he should have been (with TH/SS build) and our 235 point TH/SS+CML builds were fairly off base as well and, point-for-point, better than just about any other unit in the game. Don't confuse getting put in one's place with getting shafted. I for one am glad that the new codex seems to be moving away from incentivizing that mono-build TH/SS+CML squad that became all the rage. Hell, it's the main reason I kept my DW as is throughout that short-lived period. Price increases and changes were coming. Sorry you chose a doomed build. *shrug* While this helps the efficiency of tactical DW terminators, assualt DW terminators or mixed DW terminators are stuck with a USR that a USR that isn't very efficient. I'd rather it had been an upgrade that is paid for, rather than forcing me to take something I don't want. The increased price for storm shields isn't something that was unexpected, but still hurts us. The 3++ really helps against the increase of plasma that's been seen. You can't even make the most of cover, because DW are hopefully going to retain fearless, meaning you can't gtg to improve your cover save. If we assume that the Deathwing are keeping Fearless (part of the Inner Circle rule, since all Inner Circle units lack ATSKNF) and get an improved version of Deathwing Assault (choose either the first turn or the second turn, much more flexible than last edition). They also gain Split Fire and Vengeanful Strike (which certainly sounds assault oriented) for 1 additional point a piece. And why do we need to improve our cover saves with Go to Ground, we have a roving stealth-granting speeder? All I see with this update is it makes the Deathwing better in several different builds. The TH/SS+CML build was just spammed because it was grossly undercosted for us. But new builds will be found and they may end up being more based on firepower. Some are already suggesting the Deathwing Gunline utilizing Dark Shrouds to grant us 3+ cover saves in ruins without the need for shields. We can still mix in shields to take a few hits on tactical units and we can still field a more flexible Hammernator squad (for cheaper than those who can mix heavies and assaults by the way) if not a cheaper one. Deathwing Knights seem like another inefficient unit. Either you deep strike them and your opponent gets a round of shooting against a scary 250ish pt target, or you put them in a land raider and drive them up, spending 500pts on one low-end deathstar unit, not leaving you with many points to get the toys you want, and enough DW troops to be functional. Walking them up leaves you with the same problem that deep striking has, your opponent shoots them off the board. I've played many games where 4 out of my 5 terminator squads are gone by the end of the game and increasing the price of DW isn't going to help that at all. We have yet to see a lot of things that may make them a lot better than you expect. Rumours persisted of Belial granting things like Heroic Intervention on teleporting units, we can now choose to bring them in on the second turn instead of the first (thus allowing units like Black Knights to tie up units before they get a chance to shoot the Knights). And of course they are T5 2+/3++ models which makes them harder to kill using the usual small-arms spam tactics that were effective against most of our DW deathstars. They are massively more survivable than average terminators because of Fortress of Shields, I don't think the extra cost on them will go to waste (especially not with the improvements to DWA). Given all of that, I don't think Dark Angels as a whole are done for. In fact, quite the opposite. DA are likely going to be a strong army. The problem I have, is that playing a pure DW force isn't going to be a decently competitive option any more. I don't really think you can predict that any better than I can. And considering all the rumours, I at least think you are off base with your guesses. But we shall see. I agree with the DW dead actually. Split fire? how is that going to be useful? Something that perhaps may be overlooked... If you Split fire, you can charge EITHER target that you fired at. So how is this useful? Most of the squad fires at target A, the rest at target B, You then charge target B. Because most of your ranged attack was at A, you dont need to worry as much about killing too many in the charge target, so that they end up out of charge range... It allows you to bring the pain to 2 different squads with a single squad. Now Lets look at a 10 man squad... combat squaded into 2 5 man squads, one with 2HW. Those 2 HW can now be fired at multiple targets... say something like 2 transports. You can then charge whichever one that you crack open. The tactical applications of Split fire are really very useful. I think the only reason that its not realized so much, is that the only squad with it so far is Longfangs, and they pretty much just hide and target 2 Vehicles/Squads a turn. Not very exciting... All of this, 10-man squads is another huge improvement to Deathwing viability. And 10-man assault units with two heavy weapons will have some interesting uses that may not become apparent immediately. Things like allowing us to take a Heavy Flamer in the unit and target it at a unit we aren't charging so that it softens up their counter-charge in the next turn. And of course allowing us to really make use of our mixed units by putting a storm bolter in to "mark" squads we intend to charge, leaving heavies free to fire on the real targets during the shooting phase. If you can't figure out ways of using split fire on a unit of Deathwing equipped for assault, then you aren't thinking hard enough. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGumbo Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I don't think I mentioned anything about tournaments in that post... Believe it or not, 40k is a competitive game, that is, not a cooperative game. You have an opponent, and both of you square off on 6x4 table. Why is playing to win such a bad thing? Playing to win is no bad thing; whingeing about how your chosen build will no longer be "competitive" under a new set of rules that hasn't even been published yet is a bad thing. Just saying. I play to win but I don't build army lists on the basis of what I think will win; rather on the basis of what I think will be fun to play, whether I win or lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 DW is dead??? no way... Hammernators are dead??? maybe and i thank god if it is... I am not playing 40k waiting for the new DA codex since 4 years cause i was bored to death that the only good build for DA was DW TH+SS squads leaded by Belial and supported by LST+MM cause they were the only three undercosted units of an all overpriced codex... DW terminators are 1 point more??? i will live with that considering that now i can make a 10 man squad with 2 heavy weapons... you can make half squad shooty and half squad HtH oriented... they you split the squad in two... you keep the shooty termies on the field and the HtH half will deep strike on turn two after the first half had softened the enemies and in turn 3 the HtH half can charge while the shooty still fires moving to the enemy and in turn 4 they charge together with the HTH half wreking the enemies to pieces... DW knights overpriced? they all have power maces and storm shields and all have WS5, they can have S5 (useful to survive in the turn they deepstrike) and they can go to s10 AP2 on time per battle... GW gave us extreme flexibility for just 1 point more and you are ready to bury the DW??? Well go to buy a different army (like vanilla marines that doesnt pay for the TH+SS combo)... That's what GW wants... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artemid Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I didn't think we could actually combat squad the new DW squads in half. I for one think a hammershield force is pretty badass and will be kinda sad it's (probably) gone, but I understand it should also probably happen and will most likely switch to combined squads.. my regular opponents will only maybe thank me ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droma Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Sorry to anyone I may offend. Anyone claiming any particular build is dead at the moment with any sort of conviction is a complete idiot. Even if deathwing go up in points the new rules for them may offset it. Or more likely point costs for supporting units like ravenwing bikers will go down in cost offsetting the point increase. Currently there are too many unknown factors to be sure of anything. So will all of you please sit back, shut up about what is dead/not dead viable/not viable and talk about how pretty/ugly the models look because that's really all there is to talk about with any sort of accuracy until the book has been officially released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I don't think I mentioned anything about tournaments in that post... Believe it or not, 40k is a competitive game, that is, not a cooperative game. You have an opponent, and both of you square off on 6x4 table. Why is playing to win such a bad thing? Playing to win is no bad thing; whingeing about how your chosen build will no longer be "competitive" under a new set of rules that hasn't even been published yet is a bad thing. Just saying. I play to win but I don't build army lists on the basis of what I think will win; rather on the basis of what I think will be fun to play, whether I win or lose. Indeed, that is the main thing to get across. As it stands, if you want to be competitive with the pure Deathwing then it has exactly one squad build because other builds lack the efficiency needed to compete. Tactical terminators have the downside of being a lot of expensive firepower in a small package. This is bad because it can only fire on one target and while the heavy weapon can be good at either anti-tank or anti-infantry the basic troops will only ever be good against infantry. So any time spent firing on a tank wastes at least 160 points of the squad during your turn (in a basic list). This problem is solved by the new rule and thus, a new competitive build using the Deathwing probably scales back on TH/SS terminators and goes shootier. While a normal tac-terminator squad in every other list in the game will be wasting a lot of potential against off-spec targets ours will always be operating at peak fire efficiency. This is something that small-expensive units need to compete in the new ranged-heavy meta. A single shield in the group to weather some plasma may help, but the old mono-build units aren't the be-all end-all that they were for the period since we got the last upgrade (but they are still better than what most other forces can field). But even with the cost increase on our current popular build, it will continue to have its uses, because our TH/SS+CML build is still cheaper than, say, the equivalent a WG unit could field. The armies that do it cheaper than us are also without a way of adding ranged weapons to there squads. The changes shift our meta and solve several problems a tactical terminator army used to have (inefficient leveraging of firepower). Teleport assaults become more efficient and flexible, our split fire gives us a swiss-army knife rule that can benefit several squad-builds and we still don't have a full picture of what the rest of the army can provide. It is all well and good to want to be competitive, but part of that is moving on to what works and not lamenting what doesn't. The death of an old and inflexible build that came about because of an oddity of an errata-based kludge isn't a huge deal. The Deathwing gained several new units, new gear and new rules. The challenge will be finding what new combination(s) are our strengths. I've played Deathwing-heavy armies for 16 years and I've never seen them with so much flexibility. Again, if the Deathwing were going to die as a viable build then that time was back in 3rd Edition when the entire meta-game was toxic against them even being fielded. I have no doubt there will be fully competitive builds in the new codex, just don't expect them to resemble the TH/SS+CML spam we are currently using. For people lamenting the changes have some food for though: Deathwing Squad - 270 3x Deathwing w/ TH/SS 1x Deathwing w/ SB/PF 1x Deathwing w/ TH/SS+CML The above unit costs 35 points extra than our current go-to build. Most of this is the increase in TH/SS cost (worth it, considering how strong it is) and the small increase our CML is likely to see. But where our current build suffers from the fire-efficiency problem, this one does not. The CML is a massive boon in the fight against vehicles. Heavy 2 S8 is awesome. Unfortunately, the rest of the unit wants to charge infantry units and punch through them. What's a unit to do. If the CML is fired against a far-off vehicle then your charge is ruined, if you charge then you have to make the decision of whether to fire at all for fear of driving off your target. The new version can fire on a vehicle, mark a nearby unit and still charge. For 35 points extra you have a squad that can fire on opportunity targets and still charge exactly who they want. And TH/SS combos were already overkill in most assaults as it was, so being down one TH/SS guy is not even a massive loss in performance (basically one less 3++ save). And this same build can be expanded to be even larger or for different tasks (like taking a cheap build with Heavy Flamers to soften up nearby units that could counter-charge you next turn instead of wasting it on the enemy you intend to charge). And this is without going in to how it makes our tactical terminators useful again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolfmeister Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 People should be playing multi wing armies anyway. Deathwing armies? Boooooring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 People should be playing multi wing armies anyway. Deathwing armies? Boooooring. with 3 different DW Squads now available... +dedicated transports... dw dreads... flyers... new uber belial... not so much, i would think... when we had Boring Belial... and 9 squads of 5x th/ss + cml... yeah that was boring. it is why i suggested the heavy and elite dw squads in the unforgiven project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artemid Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 People should be playing multi wing armies anyway. Deathwing armies? Boooooring. Tactical marines? Boooooooring. :P Rule of Cool and Terminators have it in spades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 1x Deathwing w/ TH/SS+CML. Just as a point of interest I thought the cyclone with th/ss combo would be no longer possible. Has that been confirmed one way or the other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shadow Guard Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I don't think I mentioned anything about tournaments in that post... Believe it or not, 40k is a competitive game, that is, not a cooperative game. You have an opponent, and both of you square off on 6x4 table. Why is playing to win such a bad thing? Playing to win isn't a bad thing.... and all agmers should play to win...but playing a game of 40k on the table top is more than about winning... it's about the immersive emperience... the community of players etc... I think I can easily remember a number of games that I have thoroughly enjoyed despite the fact I actually lost them....However, tournamengs are an entirely different kettle of fish... :P I am a little perplexed at the sudden burst of doom and gloom but I am happy to look at th bright side of things. Within a week this forum has changed with a dynamic and robust discussion on rules and gaming lists...... It's great to see this FRIENDLY banter within this forum after such a lolng time..... as I said before..... + + + Happy days are Ahead ..for All Wings + + + + + + and that's an order!!! :P + + + SG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 The death of patience is certainly evident. :P I think that really is it. So first we have lots of pics of new goodies and some stats, then a whole bunch of ooo-ing and ahhhh-ing, and then its all woe is that is and that. So, now we actually have to pay for our thunder hammer & storm shield upgrade. Did anybody think that wouldn't? Next up we will surely see somebody start a "OMG! Our RW Land Speeder Tornadoes with multi-meltas now cost XX points, just like everybody else pays! The RW is now dead as an army!" thread. :P To me, it looks like we may, for the fist time ever, really have a solid, interesting codex. Dang. I am sounding really optimistic now. Some sort of horrible news must surely be just about ready to drop. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 ^^^^ The cost :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolfmeister Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 People should be playing multi wing armies anyway. Deathwing armies? Boooooring. Tactical marines? Boooooooring. :P Rule of Cool and Terminators have it in spades. Tacticals + Assaults + Devastators + Terminators + Vehicles + Bikes + Dreads = Not boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shadow Guard Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Sorry to anyone I may offend. Anyone claiming any particular build is dead at the moment with any sort of conviction is a complete idiot. Even if deathwing go up in points the new rules for them may offset it. Or more likely point costs for supporting units like ravenwing bikers will go down in cost offsetting the point increase. Currently there are too many unknown factors to be sure of anything. So will all of you please sit back, shut up about what is dead/not dead viable/not viable and talk about how pretty/ugly the models look because that's really all there is to talk about with any sort of accuracy until the book has been officially released. While I agree with your sentiments whole heartedly, one might have to consider that the doomsayers here are simply venting their inherent fears of what might eventuat in the new Codex.... given our past history that is not unexpected... So, I would ask everyone to be a little more amicable and save your spiritual fire for the Heretic, Alien and the Traitor!!!! :P SG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I think people are just starting on the mourning of the passing of the 4th Ed DA Codex, for better or worse. Some are in the denial stage, some are angry, some bargaining, and some are in depression. Until the Codex comes out, I don't think that any of us will actually move to acceptance. It's only natural after being married to the current 'Dex for so long. After all, we have been living with the ups and downs of this book for almost six years now, some people get divorced long before that given this kind of rocky relationship... :woot: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 1x Deathwing w/ TH/SS+CML. Just as a point of interest I thought the cyclone with th/ss combo would be no longer possible. Has that been confirmed one way or the other? That was one of the random pre-WD rumours based on someone's "playtest" edition. Nothing has been said about CML alongside other loadouts and at least one person who has been looking at the leaked Elite pages has said that it remains as it is and allows for our close combat terminators to continue mounting CMLs (though likely at 30 points now). For now I'm trying to ignore everything we were told prior to the WD leak since there was a lot of noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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