How will the deathwing change?

[captain sox]

It's so funny. People cry for a new dex. Then people cry about the new dex. No surprise there.

 

Its pure overreaction :woot:, I have never got the tournament scene.

 

Agreed!

 

I'm lucky to have a gaming group who like to paint, build and play at a fun level. There's no compettition, it's just a fun time of gaming and hanging out.

 

What I think the who intent of the hobby is. Hobbies should be fun, and enjoyed at the level you want to enjoy it at.

[captain sox]

I think it would be fun to play Deathwing with air support. X Deathwing Squads and Y Flyers / Speeders coming in to clean up...

 

could be cool to build and see.

[The Wolfmeister]

It's so funny. People cry for a new dex. Then people cry about the new dex. No surprise there.

 

Its pure overreaction :D, I have never got the tournament scene.

 

Agreed!

 

I'm lucky to have a gaming group who like to paint, build and play at a fun level. There's no compettition, it's just a fun time of gaming and hanging out.

 

What I think the who intent of the hobby is. Hobbies should be fun, and enjoyed at the level you want to enjoy it at.

 

Agreed. I've never played in a tournament and listening to how tourney players bitch and moan about EVERYTHING, has ensured I never will. It seems most un-fun.

[IndigoJack]

IMO, this is a competitive game, and I play to win and I have fun winning. I also have fun losing, as long as it was a close game and I learned something new to further improve myself. How others play and enjoy their hobby is their own choice. I have no particular care what they do, nor will I judge them for how they do it.

 

The point I've been trying to make, isn't that paying for TH/SS is bad, or that the CML shouldn't be brought in line with other codexes. Nor am I saying that DW are going to suck. I believe quite the opposite; DW are going to be a really strong unit. Just think about a unit of DW with a plasma cannon and a libby attached. With split fire, that unit is going to be amazing. The point I'm trying to make is that paying 250+ for a unit of 5 terminators isn't going to make an army consisting of only terminators as troops very viable. 220 base is simply too much to pay for every troop choice. I love the deathwing, I love the bone colors and I love converting them. The variety of heavy weapons is really going to help diversify DW units, but being able to field less terminators than before is really going to hurt all terminator armies.

 

I'm sorry if this comes across as whining. I'm really not. I'm just trying to state that I believe what the OP does: From what we've seen in the new WD, all terminator DW armies are not going to be a very viable build.

[The Wolfmeister]

IMO, this is a competitive game, and I play to win and I have fun winning. I also have fun losing, as long as it was a close game and I learned something new to further improve myself. How others play and enjoy their hobby is their own choice. I have no particular care what they do, nor will I judge them for how they do it.

 

The point I've been trying to make, isn't that paying for TH/SS is bad, or that the CML shouldn't be brought in line with other codexes. Nor am I saying that DW are going to suck. I believe quite the opposite; DW are going to be a really strong unit. Just think about a unit of DW with a plasma cannon and a libby attached. With split fire, that unit is going to be amazing. The point I'm trying to make is that paying 250+ for a unit of 5 terminators isn't going to make an army consisting of only terminators as troops very viable. 220 base is simply too much to pay for every troop choice. I love the deathwing, I love the bone colors and I love converting them. The variety of heavy weapons is really going to help diversify DW units, but being able to field less terminators than before is really going to hurt all terminator armies.

 

I'm sorry if this comes across as whining. I'm really not. I'm just trying to state that I believe what the OP does: From what we've seen in the new WD, all terminator DW armies are not going to be a very viable build.

 

I think that's awesome. Maybe the writer wanted to steer players back towards mixed wing armies.

[Polythemus]

Hi i started this post. In the fifty four posts that occured afterward a couple of things have happened.

I have been called an idiot

I have been told i am whining or whinging which i think is the same thing.

I have had some people agree outright

I have been told that i am preaching doom and gloom.

I have had some people agreeing while stating they find the thread too negative.

I have had people say i should play a different army.

Everyone has proved that confrontational thread titles get more attention and more posts.

 

Now why did i choose such a confrontational title? Well if you go look at the dark angel army list subforum you will find many many builds call for hammernators, lots of them. The deathwing hammernator is so ubiquitous that most of the comments on any new army post reccomend at least 2-3 hammernators per squad for every squad. Henc,e the hammernator has, up til now, become synonymous with the deathwing. This why the sub title is end of an era and the post goes on to state that the era ending for sure is that of the hammernator-only build. This is a build that has been pretty competitive and is routinely regarded as perhaps the best unit in the game of 40k. So for the dark angels to have the ability to field an entire army of this type was a major boon and it is worth noting that it will not likely be viable any longer. That is not doom and gloom its fact based on very real information.

 

i would also like to say this was started as a tactics and list building thread. If you would like to engage in a tactics discussion on the various builds of the dark angels, i and everyone interested in such a thread welcome your input. In fact many have chosen to address the original post an i appreciate your criticisms and willingness to discuss the new developments revealed in our new codex. If you play the game for fun only, or paint only with no regard to tactics there are millions of other threads on this forum that address those very worthy pursuits but this thread isnt really one of them.

 

If you closely read the actual post rather than just respond to the title, you will find that i tried, perhaps ineptly, to provide a reasoned analysis with regards to deathwing points and build types and what i think may come from these changes. This is calling what i see with my own eyes with all the information availible, which i dont really think will change much. The images that have been posted are very real pictures of a very real codex. There is no disguising that.

 

I am greatful to lion el jason and brother landrain, who mentioned split fire an its possible tactical considerations with regards to assault. This is something i had not considered. It certainly seems to be an asset in assault.

Alexander the great often employed a hammer and anvil army scheme. The anvil took the punishment while the hammer destroyed the opposition. I also find it interesting to consider whether deathwing force as a whole will have enough of a hammer unit to match its typical anvil default status. This need may infact be met by dwk but im not really sure as we shall have to wait and see what the rules are for their weapons.

 

I agree with indigojack that the deathwing as we know it is probably no more due to point changes. But its also posible that there is some deus ex machina out there that will change the game for deathwing in some unknown way and new info will make it viable. But im a scientist and skepticism is my modus operandi. I do think that dark angels will become an excellent mixedwing force and i for one am excited by the possibilities that offers.

[clanfield]

historicly almost all military stratergy is based of of the greek model ie rapid distruction of enermy due to campaign season limits wh40k replicates this with its turn limits and therefore need to dare i say hammer the badies quick.

 

new book new way of playing i agree and i welcome it if it played the same why buy it..?

 

iv been playing a mix wing scince 4th book came out and much to the naysayers it was because the negative reviews that i percervered and i had a blast they rocked in apocolypse games ,small game they become great cos most peeps go ooh dark angels (snigger) then proced to get handed there stern .you win you lose

what i loved was useing my army its about 6k total in 1 template as per old book i mostly play 1k -1.5k games

 

rambling on.i love the army (sorry russ) had a blast love the look on my regular boys faces when they realise they face the angels

as too the naysayers let the book come read it test it then enjoy the coolness

 

roll on the tea and biscuits ..btw way why did i start the sons of the lion simple loved the cup of malediction bit in rt book

[Ronin_eX]

IMO, this is a competitive game, and I play to win and I have fun winning. I also have fun losing, as long as it was a close game and I learned something new to further improve myself. How others play and enjoy their hobby is their own choice. I have no particular care what they do, nor will I judge them for how they do it.

 

The point I've been trying to make, isn't that paying for TH/SS is bad, or that the CML shouldn't be brought in line with other codexes. Nor am I saying that DW are going to suck. I believe quite the opposite; DW are going to be a really strong unit. Just think about a unit of DW with a plasma cannon and a libby attached. With split fire, that unit is going to be amazing. The point I'm trying to make is that paying 250+ for a unit of 5 terminators isn't going to make an army consisting of only terminators as troops very viable. 220 base is simply too much to pay for every troop choice. I love the deathwing, I love the bone colors and I love converting them. The variety of heavy weapons is really going to help diversify DW units, but being able to field less terminators than before is really going to hurt all terminator armies.

 

I'm sorry if this comes across as whining. I'm really not. I'm just trying to state that I believe what the OP does: From what we've seen in the new WD, all terminator DW armies are not going to be a very viable build.

 

You see, I don't think 220 really crosses the line from competitively-viable to non-viable, the point-grade is not that fine. That is a mere five extra points and we seem to gain a lot for that small premium. Note, also, that the only options going up in price are TH/SS and possibly the CML (by 5 points, likely). Other builds will only see a flat +5 point increase for the base squad. If Hammernator squads seem a bit expensive now (but I'd argue they are still a good unit) then the Deathwing Knights fill the Close Combat half of their role perfectly (and at the same price-point as our old Hammer Squad) and are tougher as well (and hit harder on that one turn you need them to).

 

Either way, I'm sure we can find some places to free up 20-25 points in our lists to be able to field 4-5 squads. If you fielded Dreads in your DW list then they have gone down in price (as have their drop pods) from what we have heard. But all in all, the only squad whose price has increased substantially is a squad consisting of nothing but Thunder Hammer terminators with one CML. And considering their rules, that is no longer a perfectly optimal build for Deathwing (I'd argue it wasn't perfect before either, due to the inability to fire at vehicles and still charge the unit you want).

 

Hell, give one of your squads a Heavy Flamer instead of an Assault Cannon and you have saved 25 points! And Deathwing can leverage the advantage of a Heavy Flamer better than any other TDA unit in the game because they can split fire.

 

Basically, the new meta is more complex than we are giving it credit for and it also ignores the current things that make a terminator-only DW army non-viable right now (DWA is not terribly useful without support, it needs transports to make up for it, our Ven. Dreads are too expensive and come with expensive drop pods to boot). The only thing that kept us afloat was having a single, grossly under-costed build. The only reason our shooting build wasn't popular previously was due to inefficient use of firepower (and it was based around 250-ish point squads) and that problem has been solved nicely. Flexibility is what keeps all-TDA armies from being viable.

 

With so few models and the way targeting works we either over-killed things with too much firepower or wasted most of it. With that downside out of the way TDA armies based around ranged firepower are eminently viable and far more flexible than what we currently get.

 

That said, I never really advocate mixing narrow themes with competitive builds. Almost by definition, and theme defined as cutting you off from 75% of your unit choices is a bad idea if you want to be competitive. But a Dark Angels army leaning heavily on Deathwing will probably do well.

 

But I repeat, the only large point increase is on the exact squad-build that is popular at this very second. Sorry to all those people that rushed to make the temporary one-trick-pony army that was getting us by, but it probably wasn't worth it in the end. But now that we are getting a real codex, we don't have to cling to the stop-gap solution. We can expand and successfully use a whole army list again, no need to outsource to C: SM if we want to start mixing units!

[Nightmare84]

Split fire will make up the extra 5 points a standard squad will cost. Especially for the assault phase.

Hammernators were undercosted so it's only bringing it in line and hopefully working towards that tentative game balance.

 

Most of my dw squads now cost 240ish now so it's not that big of a difference with points hopefully going down on gundis and they have dropped on dreads it evens out in my eyes

[shabbadoo]

I don't mourn the 4E codex at all. What is there really to mourn, bolt pistols and grenades as standard, and Combat Squads? Gimme a break. There is almost nothing special about that codex at all. Good riddance I say.

[The Wolfmeister]

I think people are going to be upset when they see Deathwing Knights are 105 points more than regular Deathwing, not a mere 5 points.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think people are going to be upset when they see Deathwing Knights are 105 points more than regular Deathwing, not a mere 5 points.

Only if their rules don't justify their points cost.

[The Wolfmeister]

I think people are going to be upset when they see Deathwing Knights are 105 points more than regular Deathwing, not a mere 5 points.

Only if their rules don't justify their points cost.

I just meant I've seen a lot of people thinking they're 225, but when you zoom in on that pic you can see it's 325.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Well, they're looking at blurry pics... they shouldn't be upset for jumping into conclusions. :D

[Onisuzume]

I think people are going to be upset when they see Deathwing Knights are 105 points more than regular Deathwing, not a mere 5 points.

Only if their rules don't justify their points cost.

I just meant I've seen a lot of people thinking they're 225, but when you zoom in on that pic you can see it's 325.

Done that, actually, and it got too blurry to really see anything.

So I'm leaving it open for now until we got harder evidence.

 

Anyhow, the new codex hits in two weeks, so we'll know soon enough.

[Slyfox1990]

Wouldn't normally bother involving myself in this sort of "discussion" but for once I will leave a small comment.

 

Wait and see. You don't know what the actual figures etc will be, so don't bother speculating, and then making wild comments/decisions based on that speculation. When you know the reality, fine comment, complain, jump for joy - whatever you like - but not now! In reality whatever happens will be essentially set in stone anyway so moaning about it is totally worthless anyway.

[Hashmalum]

I just meant I've seen a lot of people thinking they're 225, but when you zoom in on that pic you can see it's 325.

 

I see a 235 not a 325.

 

And seriously, what's with all this premature conclusions?

[Leonaides]

It's new codexitis, but its been so long since it happened to you guys that most don't recognise it. ALways looks different when its your army, not some other codex that's getting a new book... But for what its worth I'm looking forward to seeing angels of death back on the battlefield, its been too long without them...

[Nightmare84]

I see 235 for knights too..

Anyway. Can still use the models and not the rules. So essential who gives a crap...

This is turning into a bigger boggle than the chaos codex..

. Ahhh noise marines got nerd bat haaaard >_<

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

. Ahhh noise marines got nerd bat haaaard >_<

So they became Tzeentch noise marines? :)

[Droma]

Competitive deathwing has always hinged off having good supporting units. The old book was horrible with it until they updated typhoon speeders in the FAQ. We have no idea how much better/worse our support choices have gotten with the new dex. Deathwing going up in points makes zero difference if the support is there to make up for it.

 

If you're not playing competitive deathwing what do you care about the point cost anyway?

[shabbadoo]

Deathwing are going to be brutal for one reason only- the addition of special close combat AP values; power weapons in particular. They are nigh on immune to all power weapons but power axes, and, with a few freakish exceptions, all other types of AP 2 special close combat weapons are cumbersome. So you add in some lightning claws to chop down the fools. The only aspect that suffers is numbers. DW will be woefully outnumbered in most cases. But then they now have 10-man squads, Combat Squads, and split fire, which allows two separate types of 5-man units to be formed: one set up for close combat (with no heavy weapons), and one set up for ranged combat (with two heavy weapons- PC & CML combos will be very highly used I think). Add in the slew of special rules, most of which we have no idea what they may do (but they will do something useful), and things are looking rather bright.

 

Guess what? We wanted Terminators that were a little bit more special than just being Fearless and having full weapon option access Well, we got it. But no, we shouldn't have to pay anything for all of this, because then our all DW armies might get one or two models in cost smaller. Think about it. Is the removal of one or two models from your all DW army mitigated by the addition of all of these special rules? The simple answer is- hell yes!

 

I have enough Terminators to run an all Deathwing force, and am looking forward to doing so (because I haven't done so in a while). There are just too many tactical options not to want to try it out now. In 2,000 points, I will probably have 25 Terminators (assuming that 10-man units with two heavy weapons will be about 500 points, 5-man 250 points), two Dreadnoughts with Drop Pods, plus Belial and maybe another HQ. That doesn't sound too bad at all.

[Brother Landrain]

Deathwing are going to be brutal for one reason only- the additional of special close combat AP values; power weapons in particular. They are nigh on immune to all power weapons but power axes, and, with a few freakish exceptions, all other types of AP 2 special close combat weapons are cumbersome. So you add in some lightning claws to chop down the fools. The only aspect hat suffers is numbers. Dw will be woefully outnumbered in most cases. but then they now have 10-man squads, Combat Squads, and split fire, which allows two separate types of 5-man units to be formed: one set up for close combat (with no heavy weapons), and one set up for ranged combat (with two heavy weapons- PC & CML combos will be very highly used I think). Add in the slew of special rules, most of which we have no idea what they may do (but they will do something useful), and things are looking rather bright.

 

Guess what? We wanted Terminators that were a little bit more special than just being Fearless and having full weapon option access Well, we got it. But no, we shouldn't have top pay anything for all of this, because then our all DW armies might get one or two models in cost smaller. Think about it. Is the removal of one or two models from your all DW army mitigated by the addition of all of these special rules. For the the answer is simple- hell yes!

 

I have enough Terminators to run an all Deathwing force, and am looking forward to doing so (because I haven't done so in a while). There are just too many tactical options to not want to try it out now. In 2,000 points, I will probably have 25 Terminators (assuming that 10-man units with two heavy weapons will be about 500 points, 5-man 250 of that), two Dreadnoughts with Drop Pods, plus Belial and maybe another HQ. That doesn't sound too bad at all.

 

All I want is that when the codex comes out... I get a video of me dancing a Jig like Bruce Willis in 'The Last Boyscout' so that I can send to Maddoc ;)

 

You are so correct Shabbadoo, DW will be fun and varied in the future, not so static as it is now.

 

Long live the Deathwing!

[Polythemus]

Shaba i agree that the trade-off was long overdue. Hammernators were bound to change, but its important to know that they are infact changed this way we can effectively move forward onto better choices. Weve got more variety and we are all curious to see what the changes mean.

 

 

Right now the dw are at risk from the high degree of plasma that has started to creep into" local meta." this change plus fliers armed with lascannons and high volume of high strength weapons are the geatest threat. I think it will be fascinating to see if black kinghts and some form of deathwing can become the super potent combo we all hope it will be. For me personally i am really hoping for a large variety of effective builds. I feel that the model for this is really blood angels or dark eldar and i am looking forward to implementing it with as many ways as i can.

 

Finally i want wish everyone a happy new year. See you on the other side.

[Ronin_eX]

I think people are going to be upset when they see Deathwing Knights are 105 points more than regular Deathwing, not a mere 5 points.

Only if their rules don't justify their points cost.

I just meant I've seen a lot of people thinking they're 225, but when you zoom in on that pic you can see it's 325.

 

Honestly, the picture is blurry enough that it could go either way. When I look I see 235. Could be 325 though, but I couldn't see that when I looked at it. And the first guy with the WD who posted the original rumours (reading off of the original magazine, not blurry photos) quoted 235. But we will have to wait and see.

 

Deathwing are going to be brutal for one reason only- the additional of special close combat AP values; power weapons in particular. They are nigh on immune to all power weapons but power axes, and, with a few freakish exceptions, all other types of AP 2 special close combat weapons are cumbersome. So you add in some lightning claws to chop down the fools. The only aspect hat suffers is numbers. Dw will be woefully outnumbered in most cases. but then they now have 10-man squads, Combat Squads, and split fire, which allows two separate types of 5-man units to be formed: one set up for close combat (with no heavy weapons), and one set up for ranged combat (with two heavy weapons- PC & CML combos will be very highly used I think). Add in the slew of special rules, most of which we have no idea what they may do (but they will do something useful), and things are looking rather bright.

 

Guess what? We wanted Terminators that were a little bit more special than just being Fearless and having full weapon option access Well, we got it. But no, we shouldn't have top pay anything for all of this, because then our all DW armies might get one or two models in cost smaller. Think about it. Is the removal of one or two models from your all DW army mitigated by the addition of all of these special rules. For the the answer is simple- hell yes!

 

I have enough Terminators to run an all Deathwing force, and am looking forward to doing so (because I haven't done so in a while). There are just too many tactical options to not want to try it out now. In 2,000 points, I will probably have 25 Terminators (assuming that 10-man units with two heavy weapons will be about 500 points, 5-man 250 of that), two Dreadnoughts with Drop Pods, plus Belial and maybe another HQ. That doesn't sound too bad at all.

 

This.

 

I never went in and chopped off the arms of my DW and replaced them all with hammer squads. My collection of terminators is quite varied and what I see in this codex is that I can start using some of the less favoured squad builds I have lying around and they will be much improved. Heavy Flamers have a use that doesn't risk your assault target running off. Twin lightning claws are cheap and effective at shredding any and all infantry and the assault cannon loves the versatility it gains with split fire.

 

I'll probably run something more mixed, like I did in 4th Edition (those Black Knights are too bad-arse not to field as my vanguard). I figure 20-ish terminators (10 for the shooty, 5 for a command, 5 for DWK to use as a pure line-breaker unit), a unit of 5-6 Black Knights and maybe a bit of Dark Shroud or one of the flyers to fill things out (maybe both depending on the cost).

 

That said, I may go heavier on DW vehicles once I know what the Deathwing Vehicle rule does (part of me is hoping it gives them teleport homers, but that is just a random guess and has no foundation in anything).