How will the deathwing change?

[Interrogator Stobz]

Two words- Magnets

 

:eek

s

[Zoatibix]

Isn't that one word?

 

:eek

[Interrogator Stobz]

Three; a dash, a smiley and a letter.

 

Magnets help prevent stagnation.

 

You are correct in the fact that "that" is one word ^_^

[Garath]

If the rumors are true- and what I red here , then DW will change - for the better.

 

From a strictly competitive point of view- I don't think DW will be weaker in comparison to it's former form.

Here's why (from what we've herd so far )

 

- they will be in squads form 5 to 10 (this is good-later on this)

- they will have split fire (ditto above)

- they will still be fearless

- a slight point's increase for TH/SS

- they will get combat squads

 

In a typical tournament that consists of 5 rounds- one is a KP mission, 3 are objective based and the fifth is relic- no necessary in that order.

That means that an army with less KP has the upper hand in KP missions (it's MUCH harder to earn a KP by killing a single 10 man terminator squad). Split fire comes into play here- you can have two CML shoot one target while the rest of the squads deals with another.

 

Remember, the opponent must kill all of them for a single KP!

 

That same squad , in an objectives mission they can combat squad and have more scoring units. Even if they will be somewhat more expensive, this will work in our favor.

And then there is ...plasma cannons in terminator squads.

 

Characters come into play here too- the question is which psychic powers and how many of them are our Librarians going to have? Do we get a codex specific list to roll on ?

 

The knights will be more expensive even then a standard terminator so we can hope that they get a good defensive mechanism helping them survive or a way to make them scoring. Unless their statistics blow my mind,I don't see myself fielding them- as a normal TH/SS squad can deal with 90% of the things one might meet in the dark future.

One of the things TH/SS sqauds struggle against are hordes of cheap troops- anything more then 20 is a problem for them- they win combat more often then not, but the sheer number of saves they need to take proves as their downfall.

 

Back to those shooty termies. Fielding them in squads of 7-8 opens up the good old tradition of taking a Land Raider Crusader for them.

[Spaced Hulk]

If the rumors are true- and what I red here , then DW will change - for the better.

 

From a strictly competitive point of view- I don't think DW will be weaker in comparison to it's former form.

Here's why (from what we've herd so far )

 

- they will be in squads form 5 to 10 (this is good-later on this)

- they will have split fire (ditto above)

- they will still be fearless

- a slight point's increase for TH/SS

- they will get combat squads

 

In a typical tournament that consists of 5 rounds- one is a KP mission, 3 are objective based and the fifth is relic- no necessary in that order.

That means that an army with less KP has the upper hand in KP missions (it's MUCH harder to earn a KP by killing a single 10 man terminator squad). Split fire comes into play here- you can have two CML shoot one target while the rest of the squads deals with another.

 

Remember, the opponent must kill all of them for a single KP!

 

That same squad , in an objectives mission they can combat squad and have more scoring units. Even if they will be somewhat more expensive, this will work in our favor.

And then there is ...plasma cannons in terminator squads.

 

Unfortunately the Splitfire USR doesn't work that way. It's not the same as the Long Fang special rule. Basically a squad with Split Fire takes a Leadership test. If it passes, a single model may fire at a different target to the rest of his squad.

 

Also, is it confirmed that Deathwing do actually get Combat Squads? The blurry pics of the Elites section are hard to make out, but it doesn't look like Combat Squads is included in the DW special rules. Hopefully this is either an oversight or Combat Squads is included somewhere else in the unit entry, as it really doesn't make sense for DW not to get that rule.

[Drunkspleen]

Also, is it confirmed that Deathwing do actually get Combat Squads? The blurry pics of the Elites section are hard to make out, but it doesn't look like Combat Squads is included in the DW special rules. Hopefully this is either an oversight or Combat Squads is included somewhere else in the unit entry, as it really doesn't make sense for DW not to get that rule.

 

They almost certainly don't have Combat Squads, as you observed.

 

As pictured in the White Dwarf they have: Deathwing Assault; Inner Circle; Split Fire; Vengeful Strike.

 

There are two possibilities, both IMO unlikely, that could see them still have Combat Squads, the first of these is that the page in the WD was taken from an older copy of the codex and it has since changed, or that Inner Circle gives them some special form of Combat Squadding.

 

But personally I wouldn't bank on being able to split them up.

[shabbadoo]

Right now the dw are at risk from the high degree of plasma that has started to creep into" local meta." this change plus fliers armed with lascannons and high volume of high strength weapons are the greatest threat.

The Vendetta you mean. One flier, of all of them, is really dangerous. That is supposed to gut a DW force somehow? Take three Mortis Dreads (I hope Forgeworld updates these to have the Venerable + DW upgrade too) that will simply stand still and hammer any fliers that enter the field of play. Bu-bye Vendettas. As to plasma spam, one of the DW rules is rumored to be that Reserve DW units show up either turn 1 or turn 2- your choice. How about all of your reserves showing up on the flank of the enemy and pounding any plasma units to dust before they can even fire at a viable target, while a few Mortis Dreads hammer them safely from range? For a monotone force, DW could turn out to be pretty brutal and have some good strategic variance built into them, but that is just at face value, and we don't even know everything else they will be getting yet either.

[Garath]

Why would split fire be a USR, and not like the one done by long fangs? There's no logic to suggest for it or against it.

Even with a single member shooting a different target is a benefit .

Combat squad is a"standard" SM rule. Deathwing didn't get it because the squads where 5 members only in the last codex only.

 

The point of my replies is adding (as) constructive points for deathwin's sake.

[Cactus]

Why would split fire be a USR, and not like the one done by long fangs? There's no logic to suggest for it or against it.

Although we won't know for sure until we get to see the page that outlines Deathwing's special rules I think it's reasonable to assume that 'split fire' will refer to the 'split fire' special rule on page 42 of the 40k rulebook.

[Spaced Hulk]

Why would split fire be a USR, and not like the one done by long fangs? There's no logic to suggest for it or against it.

Even with a single member shooting a different target is a benefit .

Combat squad is a"standard" SM rule. Deathwing didn't get it because the squads where 5 members only in the last codex only.

 

The point of my replies is adding (as) constructive points for deathwin's sake.

 

I think it's a pretty safe bet that Deathwing will use the SplitFire USR from the 6th Edition rulebook, as (1) why else would that rule be included in the core rules if it's going to be over ridden by an identically named rule in the 2nd Codex of the Edition and (2) the long fang version isn't called Split Fire, it's called Fire Control.

 

I agree that Combat Squads is a standard marine rule and that logically Deathwing should have it. However, according to the White Dwarf photo's of the actual Codex entry for Deathwing, they don't. As I said before, hopefully it's some sort of oversight because it would be a real benefit.

 

I'm sorry if you interpreted my reply as overly critical. As it happens I think you're right and that Deathwing will be perfectly fine in the new codex. The 'standard' composition of a Deathwing squad will alter but there will still be competitive builds for those who want to find them. I'm not sure 10 man squads will be used that often though simply because of the points cost involved, and without combat squads you'd probably be better with multiple smaller units of Deathwing (unless you're running out of force organisation slots). Splitfire will certainly be a benefit, allowing a squad to engage both vehicles and infantry in the same shooting phase, which is very useful for an army of limited models & units.

 

The point of my reply was simply to correct inaccurate information, nothing more.

[Cactus]

I think one benefit of the 5-10 size will be the added flexibility when creating an army. How many times have you had 50-ish points left and used them up with an attack bike or extra armour upgrades? The option to scatter another three or four terminators across the army instead of taking, say, a dreadnought or tank will be nice. Deathwing squads have been capped at 5 for so long that I can live without the combat squads rule.

 

Also, not having combat squads allows the other chapters a small niche of their own. The Deathwing should be better than other terminators, but they shouldn't be simply ultramarines terminators plus stuff.

[Brother Immolator]

With the deathwing command squad been able to have ten models and the apothecary and belial and possibly a chaplain or libby attached I might not field any more terminators elsewhere. 400+ points of pure epic roflstomping.

[Nightmare84]

All you need is one guy to split fire. That's why I want the rule. Fire mostly at one unit split 1 storm bolter. That way you can charge either target. Makes failed charges from casualties hopefully less likely

[Spaced Hulk]

I think one benefit of the 5-10 size will be the added flexibility when creating an army. How many times have you had 50-ish points left and used them up with an attack bike or extra armour upgrades? The option to scatter another three or four terminators across the army instead of taking, say, a dreadnought or tank will be nice. Deathwing squads have been capped at 5 for so long that I can live without the combat squads rule.

 

Indeed. It may turn out that the optimal build for Deathwing is (for example) a 7 man unit, allowing you to include some close combat specialists in a squad without reducing the volume of storm bolter fire. Obviously the extra wounds would improve the squads resilience as well.

[Spaced Hulk]

With the deathwing command squad been able to have ten models and the apothecary and belial and possibly a chaplain or libby attached I might not field any more terminators elsewhere. 400+ points of pure epic roflstomping.

 

Do you happen to know how the Deathwing/Ravenwing Command Squads work? Are they seperate entries in the HQ section or are they standard DW/Black Knight squads with added character options (like now)?

[Brother Landrain]

I think one benefit of the 5-10 size will be the added flexibility when creating an army. How many times have you had 50-ish points left and used them up with an attack bike or extra armour upgrades? The option to scatter another three or four terminators across the army instead of taking, say, a dreadnought or tank will be nice. Deathwing squads have been capped at 5 for so long that I can live without the combat squads rule.

 

Indeed. It may turn out that the optimal build for Deathwing is (for example) a 7 man unit, allowing you to include some close combat specialists in a squad without reducing the volume of storm bolter fire. Obviously the extra wounds would improve the squads resilience as well.

I have championed this for a long time...

It also allows a IC + squad in a LRC...

 

of course now we have the LRS... (Capacity 25)

 

With the deathwing command squad been able to have ten models and the apothecary and belial and possibly a chaplain or libby attached I might not field any more terminators elsewhere. 400+ points of pure epic roflstomping.

 

Do you happen to know how the Deathwing/Ravenwing Command Squads work? Are they seperate entries in the HQ section or are they standard DW/Black Knight squads with added character options (like now)?

 

This can make a huge difference...

 

Will it be one per Master of the DW/RW? one per IC in TDA/Bike? or will they count as an HQ slot?

 

If it is IC in TDA/Bike that would be optimal. You could field then 2 command squads.

[Onisuzume]

I think one benefit of the 5-10 size will be the added flexibility when creating an army. How many times have you had 50-ish points left and used them up with an attack bike or extra armour upgrades? The option to scatter another three or four terminators across the army instead of taking, say, a dreadnought or tank will be nice. Deathwing squads have been capped at 5 for so long that I can live without the combat squads rule.

 

Indeed. It may turn out that the optimal build for Deathwing is (for example) a 7 man unit, allowing you to include some close combat specialists in a squad without reducing the volume of storm bolter fire. Obviously the extra wounds would improve the squads resilience as well.

Eh, personally I'm for a hard 5/10 choice.

[ValourousHeart]

Of course this is all speculation, but from what I have read so far it seems like it will be all tied up in a central PA command squad with options to upgrade all members of the squad with either TDA or Bikes, along with personalized wargear for each member of the squad.

 

I see this as being the "let your imagination go wild" unit of the codex.

 

The only limitation that I see them imposing is squad size (5).

 

Allowing the option to field one command squad with any IC and giving each IC the option to buy a bike or TDA will give us the most flexibility.

 

Finally while I like the idea of having a customizable master for both DW and RW... I really hope that we get something like what GK got with Draigo and the generic Master. The generic has wonderful customization, but you can't build anything that is remotely like Draigo. He is the clear choice if you want a CC beat stick HQ, whereas if you want shooting you go with the generic. Also if you want Paladins in your list he makes the choice easy by giving them scoring without having to use TGS.

[Artemid]

I think one benefit of the 5-10 size will be the added flexibility when creating an army. How many times have you had 50-ish points left and used them up with an attack bike or extra armour upgrades? The option to scatter another three or four terminators across the army instead of taking, say, a dreadnought or tank will be nice. Deathwing squads have been capped at 5 for so long that I can live without the combat squads rule.

 

Indeed. It may turn out that the optimal build for Deathwing is (for example) a 7 man unit, allowing you to include some close combat specialists in a squad without reducing the volume of storm bolter fire. Obviously the extra wounds would improve the squads resilience as well.

Eh, personally I'm for a hard 5/10 choice.

 

I probably would be too if it didn't screw with Land Raider capacity.

[shabbadoo]

Why would split fire be a USR, and not like the one done by long fangs? There's no logic to suggest for it or against it.

The days of a bazillion different versions of the True Grit rule and such are gone. At this point, you might as well have a new unit with Scout, and then ask, "Ah, but who's to say that this Scout special rule is the same as the Scout USR?" It would literally be insane to assume that it could be anything other than that at this point in time. The rules are much tighter than they have ever been in this regard, so it is very safe to assume that when Split Fire is listed as a special rule for a unit, it means the Split Fire USR. 1000% logical reasoning. As to Long Fangs, they do not have the Split Fire special rule. They have the Fire Control special rule. Totally different rules.

[Xwingt65]

I dont care if they are broken, op or whatnot.

 

I will build, paint and play DW just cause they look awesome!

 

I just hope all parts of the da dex will be bees knees. Nothing like have 3 different builds in the same dex to get my hobby buzz going.

[Isiah]

For those who haven't seen this in the rumour topic:

 

More stuff to DW dwell on:

 

• Terminator Squad 220 points for 5 models.
  
• May include up to five more marines at xx pts apiece.
  
• For every 5 models one marine may choose a weapon upgrade from: ac, heavy flamer, plasma cannon or cyclone.
  
• Assault cannon is cheaper than it is currently.
  
• Cyclone is slightly more expensive than currently, but not as expensive as the current assault cannon.
  
• Chainfist remains as is.
  
• Plasma cannon is cheaper than new assault cannon.
  
• Heavy flamer is twice as much as it is currently, but still cheapest heavy weapon upgrade option.
  
• Th/ss are now a costed upgrade (but cheap)
  
• Twin claws are a free swap for fist/stormbolter.
  

 

 

Overall the weapon costs are interesting. The ac now becomes a really good weapon choice once again while the cyclone isn't the 'instant choice' it has been since Jan 2012. The plasma cannon is priced between heavy flamer and assault cannon .

 

In order of cost:

Heavy flamer

Plasma cannon

Assault cannon

Cyclone missile launcher

 

Oh and Deathwing Knights are 235 points for the basic 5-man unit

 

Cheers

I

[Pbenner]

I think that I'll be glad I have some spare bodies around for extra arm bits. I have a couple of Heavy Flamer DW guys ready to paint, and can put around 4 more guys together with Plasma Cannons.

 

I've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 CMLs, so that might hurt a little bit, but I can also see a resurrection of more PF/Stormbolter guys.

 

Auto Cannon might be another option. Would have been cool to get (4) Heavy Weapons into a Deathwing Knight list, similar to what Paladins get, but if wishes were wings...

 

Oh well.

 

Paul

[facmanpob]

This is good for me as I currently have 3 Ass Cannons and only 1 CML ..... I'm liking the price of the plasma too :lol:

[Isiah]

Looks like the cost of a 5-man squad with 2 x th/ss + 1 asscannon will be 250 points -- which is 5pts more than current cost for that build.

 

Cyclone squad with 2 x th/ss looks to be 255.

 

Not so bad if you don't spam on th/ss. In other words -- the DW traditional 'mix a little bit of everything' DW squad is now the more points-efficient way to go ;).

 

Could be worse -- and special rules will boost abilities too. So overall probably well worth it.