Question to Night Lords

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I always say, don't read the novels. Read the IA articles if you want to get to know your legion.

 

Slavish adherence to outdated information isn't "knowing" your Legion. ^_^

[Sinners Red]

I love Raptors. I have made several arguments on the past about why the night lords would have lots of raptors. But to think of them as a legion of raptors would be an error. As it stands now they fell from imperial grace a deal of time before the heresy. So there supply lines etc etc would have been deminished. And for a piece of equipment considered rare during the crusade and heresy to be given solely to one legion in mass is silly. Also weren't the world eaters the first to use jump packs?

 

 

(Sorry for the spelling/grammar/idea repeats. I'm on holiday in Oklahoma. No computer. Post brought to you by my iPhone.)

[Iron Warrior w/ Servo Arm]

The IA can give you an idea an the basis of what it is to be a Night Lord. But to learn who they are, well the books aren't required but I wouldn't say that they are not suggested either.

 

The IA gives the player the very core of the army. The problem lies when people begin writing novels, and new players see them as the core of a NL army.

 

The IA tells you exactly how a NL army feels. Novels take one aspect, add creative license, and is done for the purpose of selling the book. It's good for entertainment, but I never use them as a guide to run my army. I mean really? IW are possessed by daemons in mid-battle and shoot fireballs? Storm of Iron was highly entertaining, but I would never use Honsou, Forrix, or Kroeger as exemplars of what IWs truly represent.

 

This is why I say, if you want to know the army, read the IA. You will know exactly what a NL army is at the core. If you want to expand on it, go ahead. But to be truly fluffy, you just need to get the very basic feel of the army down.

 

Example:

 

Night Lords are exceptionally versatile in their use of the forces of Chaos, employing the hell-spawned powers of each of the major Chaos deities with equal favour. It is just as likely that the Night Lords will be seen fighting alongside a group of foul Plague Marines as it is the warriors of the Thousand Sons. However, it has been ascertained that the Night Lords have nothing but scorn for faith in ail its forms, whether it be the fanatical bloodlust of the Khornate Berzerker or the devotion of the Imperial creed. The only authority they recognise is that of temporal power and material wealth.

 

Observational evidence would suggest that the only reason the Night Lords fight is for the love of killing and the material rewards this can bring. They take great pleasure in gunning down defenceless prey, especially those too young or sick to stand up to them. It Is certainly not for the thrill of battle that they fight, as an army of Night Lords can be expected to try every underhand trick in the book before resorting to honest combat. This is possibly a vestige of their ancestry in the criminal classes of Nostrarno where it was commonplace to ruthlessly force the will of the strong upon the weak.

 

The Night Lords are masters of stealth, able to infiltrate a position quickly and silently. These arts appear to be innate to the legion, and come to the fore during the sick games they use to drive their prey into paroxysms of terror. Even before they turned to Chaos, the Night Lords adorned their armour with imagery of death; this is because they know that fear can be used as a weapon just as effectively as a chainsword or bolter. Given their predilection for picking on weaker foes, a fully-armoured Night Lords champion armed with a devastating array of weaponry is always more than a match for the foes he chooses to fight.

 

Terror Attack: The Night Lords specialise in staging attacks at night, sowing confusion amongst the enemy, and disrupting their communications. These rules do not apply if the Night Lords are the defenders in any given scenario.

 

In a scenario that uses the Reserves special rule, the Night Lords player may force his opponent to re-roll one successful Reserves roll per turn (the Night Lords player chooses which). The opposing player must accept the result of the second roll.

 

All comm-links, improved comms, scanners and auspexes are ineffective in a battle against the Night Lords due to the disruptive effects of the communications breakdown.

 

In any scenario in which the Night Lords are the attacker, the Night Lords player may choose to attack at night. If this is the case, use the Night Fighting rules regardless of the scenario being played.

 

I think NL are awesome when I read the IA article. Isolating the enemy, inflicting fear, comm breakdown, hunting down the prey with excessive force, these are the trademarks of NL. How authors or players want to expand is up to them. But those expansions are not to be taken as what NL are supposed to be.

 

Saying NL are Raptor legion, etc., throws so much good stuff out of the window.

 

I always say, don't read the novels. Read the IA articles if you want to get to know your legion.

 

Slavish adherence to outdated information isn't "knowing" your Legion. :lol:

 

Quotes like this are so wrong that it really does not justify a response.

[Watch Commander Danek]

I agree with Iron Warrior completely. The IA gives you the nature of the Chapters/Legions. The novels give you the nature of specific characters.

 

I think back in the day there was...what? Two named Night Lords besides the Haunter? Krieg Acerbus and generic NL guy in that codex killing Imperial dogs? But that was fine, because we took what was given to us and created our own legends. Our own characters. That's what good franchise fiction does. It gives you just enough to allow you to add to the body yourself. Even if your part of the legacy is only known by you, or those in your local club, or some people on a message board. For some, including me (obviously), Knightmare of the 2nd Grand Company is as infamous as Talos, or Zho Sahaal, or Acerbus. Because I made him. Because instead of regurgitating a character or unit I read about I carved my own path. Alot of us did back in the IA days and earlier.

 

The books can be great. Some of them amazing, but none of them define a Legion. They only define certain characters in certain times and situations.

[Kol Saresk]

For named characters other than Lord of the Night and A D-B's series, there is Tarraq Darkblood, Ghorsamek(all I know of that guy is the name), Periclitor was a Night Lord according to some EoT campaign cards but Forgeworld has since retconned him into a Word Bearer, and there are a few others but I don't recall the names. Brother Nihm probably either has a list on the forum or knows where we can find one because I don't trust the wiki and Lexicanum doesn't carry as extensive a list as they used, probably due to changes like Periclitor combined with the material being old(not outdated, just old).

 

But that's the point, the IA says what the Night Lords are. It shows what they do, where there are from, everything. It shows what they are, but not who they are. For that we need novels, short stories and fan fiction. In order to learn who they are, we need character's like Danek's Knightmare, Tanith's Ambroz, Sinner's Sinner, Da Once and Future Git's Draichmaster to Hodir to the Night Lords in that short story in the Heroes of the Space Marines anthology, to Talos to Uzas to Zso Sahaal to Krieg Acerbus to Jago "Sevatar" Sevatarion. "Who" the Legion is may not be that different from "what" the Legion is, but there is a difference.

[Vesper]

Technically, those characters are born thanks to the IA that gave the Legions their identity. Even if such characters don't fit in it ("outcasts" being a pretty common narrative tool). All the characters, all the feelings that make them move on... Everything is built on the IA, because it was creating the setting as we know it. BL is just filling that exact same setting with characters who have a story interesting enough to be written.

FW, with their HH series, aren't telling stories of people who do stuff because X or Y. They are reinforcing and expanding the setting that is based on the IA.

The writing process of a new Black Library legion character would be > What is his Legion ? Where does he come from ? What is his mindset (outcast or not -> goal) ? What is he bringing to the setting (battles he's involved in, choices he makes -> consequences) ?

 

Let me use the metaphor of a tree.

You got the setting, which is literally the roots, the trunk and the branches. Then, you got the characters who are leaves who are attached to certain branches of the setting. If you want to really know what is a Legion, and if you want to build something out of it, then, do as BL authors : use the setting and make your own leaves out of it.

I'm not trying to devaluate anything or anyone (as I don't care that much), in fact, those leaves are central in giving depth to the setting. But in 40k, the IA articles are a must read, because it is the setting.

[Kol Saresk]

That's what I said. I feel like we're arguing in circles. You have a tree analogy. I am using a building analogy. If you build a foundation that is 300 feet by 450 feet, you can't build a pyramid the size of the ones in Egypt. But you can build a building that the foundation is capable of supporting. That's my point. The IA article is the foundation. It is not outdated, it is not outclassed or made irrelevant in any way. It is no less important but it is not anymore important either.

[RapatoR]

One thing though. Why NL always have to be fast-attacky and super-speedy? I mean, they surely had companies with artillery, siege tech and heavy weapons, what happened to those companies after legion broke up? And they surely do have siege machines (mentioned in Throne of Lies), we see them using dreadnoughts and if they did have chance to salvage/steal Vindicator, they surely are not going pass it with "too slow for our taste".

 

Night Lords are exceptionally versatile in their use of the forces of Chaos, employing the hell-spawned powers of each of the major Chaos deities with equal favour. It is just as likely that the Night Lords will be seen fighting alongside a group of foul Plague Marines as it is the warriors of the Thousand Sons . However, it has been ascertained that the Night Lords have nothing but scorn for faith in ail its forms, whether it be the fanatical bloodlust of the Khornate Berzerker or the devotion of the Imperial creed. The only authority they recognise is that of temporal power and material wealth.

 

Sorry for OT, but wasn't there a guy with sig that mentioned dying of a fluff gland, after someone mentioned Night Lord Thousand Sons? ;)

[Kol Saresk]

Yes there is. IIRC, it was came from a topic discussing warbands in general.

[AekoldHelbrass]

As it stands now they fell from imperial grace a deal of time before the heresy. So there supply lines etc etc would have been deminished. And for a piece of equipment considered rare during the crusade and heresy to be given solely to one legion in mass is silly.

No and no.

 

First of all, in some HH novels we can see factory barges to supply the fleet while it's too far from proper supply lines. It looks like there were even Dreadnought manufactories inside Furious Abyss. Iron Warriors on Meddrengard possessed manufactories of incredible size, I would not be surprised if they have possibilities to produce even titans. So if we're talking about Talos'-sized warband yes they are mostly scavengers, but it is possible for bigger warband to have some factory barges to produce basic weapons and power armour they need, as long as they can conquer some resources. After all, it's 40k, everything is possible! Blood Gorgons used some kind of warpstones as fuel for their space hulk!

 

Second, there are dozens of examples when some equipment was more popular in one legion than others. Possibly they are just closer to specific forge world, possibly their primarch just likes it so he asked Mechanicus to supply more of those. Examples are: chainaxes for World Eaters, siege equipment for Iron Warriors, scythes for Death Guard, psychic hoods for Thousand Sons... In other words almost every legion had something in bigger quantities than others.

 

Also weren't the world eaters the first to use jump packs?

It doesn't really matter. Raptor is not space marine with jump pack, it's really more of a cult, way of life. World Eaters used their jet catapults just to get to grips with enemy faster. Blood Angels are using them just for fun, because they are still just tactical marines with Mark of Khorne. Possibly Raven Guard are closest to Night Lords in this, with their guerilla warfare tactics. But in case of Night Lords it's not just tactics, it's the spirit of the Legion. And jump packs were completely different from those used by other legions, as we could see on previous edition of Raptors.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Uhh, I don't remember there ever being a Night Lords Raptor model, Aekold, so what jump pack are you referring to that was different from every other Legion?

[Lucien Eilam]

OP has things back to front. There's no problem at all with a Raptor-themed Night Lords warband. The problem arises with the perception that it's not a "real" Night Lords army unless it has a load of Raptors, like any other narrow-minded view of what a Chaos Space Marine warband is "supposed" to be, encouraged solely by a sketchy special rule some fat bloke with a beard came up with in a single publication 10 years ago. That includes Emperor's Children armies that are "supposed" to consist of nothing but 6-man Noise Marine squads, Alpha Legion that are "supposed" to include loads of Cultists, and yes, Iron Warriors that are "supposed" to take a load of Obliterators.

 

If anything is "supposed" to be anything, Chaos is supposed to be more chaotic than that.

 

Nobody will hate your Night Lords army because it's full of Raptors. Raptors are an entirely characterful squad to include in a Night Lords warband (or pretty much any other Chaos Space Marine warband for that matter). They might take issue with you if you have a problem with their Night Lords that doesn't include any, that's all.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Uhh, I don't remember there ever being a Night Lords Raptor model, Aekold, so what jump pack are you referring to that was different from every other Legion?

 

Well, maybe it's only my impression, but...

 

Sahaal and that raptor friend of Talos (can't remember his name) could almost fly with those jump packs, while loyal marines and those in Horus Heresy used them only as cannons to propel themselves onto the enemy.

 

Additionally, main difference between Chaos Raptors and loyal assault marines in 3.5 was Hit and Run USR, which, kind of, made them raptors as much as Fear is specific to our current edition "raptors".

 

More than that, all 3 (Sahaal, ADBs Raptor and 3.5) used design of previous edition finecast Raptors. That's why for me quite naturally that their jump packs were different from others. And yes it's possible, in dozens of places in books and different fluff we can see that before Horus Heresy there were hundreds of different patterns of different equipment, and different legions used it or had access to it.

[darth_giles]

Slavish adherence to outdated information isn't "knowing" your Legion. :)

It only became outdated when GW decided to re-absorb the Black Library and make all those novels fully canon. During the 3.5 era, the novels were considered loosely canon at best and the IA articles the real authority. White Dwarf spoke with a lot of authority in those days.

 

On the issue of Raptor armies, I'd argue that they're overdone but not inherently wrong. There's always the question of warlord taste, and a Raptor warlord would probably go for a Raptor- heavy force. A warlord who preferred sneaky attacks and the like would load up on infiltrators and not bother with the jump packers- especially in early 4th edition when threatened with an Omega- level mission and Escalation.

 

Razorspam, by comparison, is arguably more canon for the BA than bouncy if you go back to the 3.0 BA codex (which required the 3.0 Space Marine codex). The only troops choices were Tac Squads, close combat Scout squads, and 0-1 regular Scout squads. Of course those were also the days before Flamer and TLAC Razorbacks.

 

Edit: IW didn't take loads of oblits. IW took big freaking guns. Oblitspam is a modern invention and part of the 4th edition Chaos codex being designed as a one-trick pony.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Edit: IW didn't take loads of oblits. IW took big freaking guns. Oblitspam is a modern invention and part of the 4th edition Chaos codex being designed as a one-trick pony.

 

In 3.5 Oblits were 0-1, but without limitation for IW. And they were Elite. So IW could take 9 oblits + 4 slots of heavy support (sadly, there were no Vindicators for Chaos at that point).

[derpasaurus]

my NL army only has one "pack" of raptors. 10 strong. i feel like if i run too many i'll have all my eggs in one basket. i'm trying to maintain a fluffy feel but still be a somewhat competitive force. also, in it's current form my list is waaay more heavy support and overwhelming firepower oriented. so i've never been one to subscribe to the "army of raptors" thing.

[A D-B]

I think one of the advantages of the new Codex is that you can have Raptors Squads that are classic Cults, with their own traditions and rituals, more like a Chapter of their own inside a Legion/Chapter/Warband; or you can have Chaos Assault Marines who are the arrogant and lovable fellows who stuck to their Legion/Chapter no matter what.

[Sinners Red]

I think Night Lords kinda fall into the same stereo type as Blood Angels. The "jump pack" army. That's kinda the way it seemed to me at my local shops. Not that you had to take jump packs but that you could and you wouldn't be singled out for kind of spamming a type of unit because it was fluffy. But is a kinda eggs all in sort of idea. I like te idea that the raptors travel in packs or there own cults. Kinda like Mercs. Dead pool themed raptors? I think so.

 

Though with the issue at had I don't think Night Lord should be stereotyped quite like BA. We don't have our own codex with lots of jumpy options. We just have Fa slots. I could see how Night Lords and Raptors have a mutually beneficial relationship leading to increased cooperation between war bands and cults.

[AekoldHelbrass]

I think one of the advantages of the new Codex is that you can have Raptors Squads that are classic Cults, with their own traditions and rituals, more like a Chapter of their own inside a Legion/Chapter/Warband; or you can have Chaos Assault Marines who are the arrogant and lovable fellows who stuck to their Legion/Chapter no matter what.

 

Well, mostly fair point, they really made unmarked chaos almost viable. With few problems: raptors are now inferior choice to bikers and helldrakes, and warp talons are not an option at all, unless there is no difficult terrain on your normal gaming table.

 

But we still have no characters, no Night Lords specific warlord traits, Daemon Prince cannot become a warlord if you have any other HQ, lord is just a bonus victory point for your opponent, and chaos boons table makes it impossible to play clean Night Lords. So without homerules I would not play Night Lords with this codex, luckily my opponents accepted homerules I've made.

 

my NL army only has one "pack" of raptors. 10 strong. i feel like if i run too many i'll have all my eggs in one basket. i'm trying to maintain a fluffy feel but still be a somewhat competitive force. also, in it's current form my list is waaay more heavy support and overwhelming firepower oriented. so i've never been one to subscribe to the "army of raptors" thing.

 

It depends on what you see as competitive. BA assault spam is extremely effective, they have it better than we ever will with assault marines as troops and combat squads. And while I still think that Night Lords are a Legion and they can use whatever they want, for me it feels against the spirit of Night Lords to use firepower, if you enjoy killing crippled scared to death foe - you would really like to watch it closely, gutting with your own hands, instead of shooting from the distance.

[Brother Ambroz]

While you're definitely entitled to your own ideas Aekold my own army is more overwhelming firepower with a few close combat capable units here and there. So far I do not even any fast attack, let alone raptors. While it's definitely true of some, I think it's also very fluffy to use overwhelming firepower to take out your foe.

[Iron Warrior w/ Servo Arm]

Edit: IW didn't take loads of oblits. IW took big freaking guns. Oblitspam is a modern invention and part of the 4th edition Chaos codex being designed as a one-trick pony.

 

In 3.5 Oblits were 0-1, but without limitation for IW. And they were Elite. So IW could take 9 oblits + 4 slots of heavy support (sadly, there were no Vindicators for Chaos at that point).

 

Even the IA article had the Obliterators moved to the Elites section, if I remember correctly. But those where horrible Obliterators and no one used them. Only when 3.5 came out did the Obliterators become souped-up, and lots of new players used IW as an excuse to take 9, and fill HS with tanks. Which is sad.

 

Also, we had Vindicators and Basilisks. I love my Basilisk....

[Panda_]

Additionally, main difference between Chaos Raptors and loyal assault marines in 3.5 was Hit and Run USR, which, kind of, made them raptors as much as Fear is specific to our current edition "raptors".

 

More than that, all 3 (Sahaal, ADBs Raptor and 3.5) used design of previous edition finecast Raptors. That's why for me quite naturally that their jump packs were different from others. And yes it's possible, in dozens of places in books and different fluff we can see that before Horus Heresy there were hundreds of different patterns of different equipment, and different legions used it or had access to it.

 

Yes, Hit&Run is a rule I miss terribly. That's what made Raptors unique. I'd have gladly welcome a Warlord trait that gives H&R to 1D3 units.

 

However, there is no point in crying on our past glories. Those new raptors have something unique among our codex as they can jump over terrain. They've got 2 uniques traits among other PA jumpers : cheaper with 2 specials at 5 guys. All of this mean, even if they are less efficient than Bikers and Flyers : they can have some use. Bikes are loud hunters, they are favored by NL too. Adapt your army to your new codex, and choose the prevalent unit depending on your table.

[darth_giles]

Even the IA article had the Obliterators moved to the Elites section, if I remember correctly. But those where horrible Obliterators and no one used them. Only when 3.5 came out did the Obliterators become souped-up, and lots of new players used IW as an excuse to take 9, and fill HS with tanks. Which is sad.

 

Also, we had Vindicators and Basilisks. I love my Basilisk....

Yeah, those Oblits were awful to play. There wasn't much point in taking more than three anyway, although the sculpts weren't too much better than the current ones. There was this rule that you couldn't duplicate the same weapon, though, which I kinda wouldn't mind having been kept, with how they became the ultimate HS choice in the previous codex. But like I said, that codex was designed around Dual Lash Oblitspam and nothing else.

 

I still remember one of them failing Death or Glory with a Lascannon, and the next one having to use a Plasma Cannon because the Lascannon had already been used.

 

I think the break between old and new fluff happened with the 4th edition Chaos codex, when it mentioned that Vindicators had been used at the Seige of Terra. "Old fluff" had it that Land Speeders were highly experimental and IIRC a White Scars thing at the time (since there were one or two at the Seige of Terra diorama), and that Vindicators and Whirlwinds hadn't been rediscovered yet. Thus they don't appear in the Chaos lists. That seems to be when GW decided it was going to make the novels canon and go with them, instead of sticking to previously established fluff.

[AekoldHelbrass]

I think the break between old and new fluff happened with the 4th edition Chaos codex, when it mentioned that Vindicators had been used at the Seige of Terra. "Old fluff" had it that Land Speeders were highly experimental and IIRC a White Scars thing at the time (since there were one or two at the Seige of Terra diorama), and that Vindicators and Whirlwinds hadn't been rediscovered yet. Thus they don't appear in the Chaos lists. That seems to be when GW decided it was going to make the novels canon and go with them, instead of sticking to previously established fluff.

 

Yes, simple desire to sell more of those vindicators allowed us to say that we always had them. But as for novels becoming canon - I cannot agree. Most of novels of that time described Legions as Legion, with thousands marines strength, own production, fighting with more than one chapter at once because they were bigger than chapters. And as I understand it was CSM2007 to inspire mr. McNeill to transform his glorious Iron Warriors into yet another pathetic warband.

 

I know that 4th edition mostly duplicated 2nd edition, where CSM had warbands and 3.5 returned Legions back into business, but still, according to fluff both options still exist, and 3.5 allowed you to make a warband, while 4 and 5 do not allow you to make a Legion.