ATSKNF

[khurdur]

Brethren, if my squad of 10marines break from comabt and escape the sweeping advance, can they shoot normally next turn when they auto rally or do they snap soot?

[dswanick]

BRB, Pg.33.

[Axagoras]

They move 3 inches, then act normally. Not that hard if you read your rulebooks and codices.

[Dam13n]

It is worth noting that they count as moving regardless of whether they actually move or not,

so any heavy weapons would have to snap fire, the rest would be unaffected.

 

Laterz...

[Axagoras]

It is worth noting that they count as moving regardless of whether they actually move or not,

so any heavy weapons would have to snap fire, the rest would be unaffected.

 

Laterz...

No, it says "Regroup.The unit can move, shoot (or Run) and declare charges normally in the turn in which it Regroups (in addition to the 3" Regroup move)." So they auto regroup, they move 3 inches, then act normally.

[Gentlemanloser]

Is this an Advanced > Basic?

 

Can't check at work, isn't the 'count as moving' clause for regrouping Advanced, and over rides the 'declare stationary minis' clause of basic movement?

 

If they're both basic, I guess it's down to who's turn it is.

 

As you're regrouping and moveing in your turn, the movement rules of declare stationayminis would always take precedence over regrouping count as moving, and mean you wouldn't have to snap fire.

 

Unless you did actually move in your movement phase of course. ;)

[Dam13n]

I am similarly afflicted, my rulebook is currently 130miles from me as I work away from home a lot.

 

My interpretation was that the act of regrouping was essentially "a movement in itself" and therefore

the entire unit would count as having moved for the purposes of shooting heavy weapons.

 

Of course, if the RAW contradicts this then I certainly won't be complaining, it'll certainly make my

Long Fangs (even) more potent, under those circumstances at least.

 

I may be able to check tomorrow when I'll have access to a GW open-copy of the BRB (I have the day off :tu: )

 

Laterz...

[Gentlemanloser]

The Regroup move does state you 'count as moving'. But units with ATSKNF get to move as usual in the Movement Phase after regrouping.

 

And the first part of usual movement is nominating any minis in a unit which will 'remain stationary'.

[Axagoras]

The Regroup move does state you 'count as moving'. But units with ATSKNF get to move as usual in the Movement Phase after regrouping.

 

And the first part of usual movement is nominating any minis in a unit which will 'remain stationary'.

I always thought you had to make a 3 inch move for some reason, but that is true. You auto regroup, chose all men to stay still then fire, but can they fire heavy weapons after moving the 3 inches gentleman?

[Gentlemanloser]

Basic rules are pages 10 - 31.

 

"Which Models are Moving", page 10, so Basic.

 

"Regrouping", page 31, Basic again.

 

While ATSKNF is an Advanced rule, it only conflicts, and therefore over rules, a single part of the 'Regroup' basic rule;

 

Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move

 

While ASTKNF states you can 'shoot (or run)' 'normally', normally for a unit that has moved is to shoot Heavy Weapons as a Snap Fire.

 

We are given no guidance through the BRB on how to process a Basic - Basic rule conflict, which declaring stationary minis and the regroup move are.

 

by taking a regroup test in thier movement phase, just before they move <snip> once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move

 

You may decide that only some of the models in a unit are going to move this turn <snip> declare which models are remianing stationary just before you start moving the other models in that unit

 

So the unit of marines is falling back, they automatically regroup just before they move, count as moving, and then before you move them, you get to declare who are remaining stationary.

 

The whole unit counts as moving, yet you declare the whole unit to be stationary.

 

A conflict we cannot resolve.

[alex567]

The rules for heavy weapons state "If a model carrying a heavy weapon moved in the preceeding movement phase, he can fire it in the shooting phase but only as snap shots. Although you declared stationary you count as moving (similar to the old priest rules) as such you have to snap shot heavy weapons. The key word is "count" because you count as something else, it doesn't matter what the origonal may be, so even if you didn't move, you count as moving, which takes presidence.

 

i.e., I declare my squad to be stationary. Now although they are stationary and they haven't moved, they count as moving.

[Gentlemanloser]

Then they can't be stationary can they. Especially as the 'move' came before you declared them stationary.

 

Yet you are permitted to declare them now stationary, *after* they have moved.

 

Hence the conflict.

[Grey Mage]

You can also declare that youve won the game- but that only matters if youve actually done so.

 

You can claim theyre stationary, but that wont have made them so. Particularly since youve already moved the unit in that movement phase. Theyve already begun their move.

[Axagoras]

The issue I see is it says after the 3 inch move they act normally, which means they act like they would do so if nothing happened.

[alex567]

You can also declare that youve won the game- but that only matters if youve actually done so.

 

You can claim theyre stationary, but that wont have made them so. Particularly since youve already moved the unit in that movement phase. Theyve already begun their move.

 

This along with that yes they are stationary but they count as moving, as the old priest rules said you count as moving even if you didn't move that turn. If it was they moved that turn, but then you say they are stationary then there is an issue, but use of the word "count" means that no matter what you say they are still stationary. i.e. Here's my counts as marneus calgar, his names gary and he is equiped with two thunder hammer's, even if he is equiped with two thunder hammers because he is a "counts as" model he is infact marneus calgar, the same can be applied here, they are stationary, but they "count as" moving, as such they are considered having to have moved even if they remained stationary, the overiding comes from that they are considered to have moved, no matter the situation.

[Gentlemanloser]

You can also declare that youve won the game- but that only matters if youve actually done so.

 

GM, no need to be facetious! :wacko:

 

Sure, we do declare we've won the game. When following the rules in the rule book that tell us we've won. Be it from Tabling our opponent, to VPs.

 

The rulebook quite clearly tells us to declare which minis are stationary. I've C&P'd the relevant rules.

 

as such they are considered having to have moved even if they remained stationary, the overiding comes from that they are considered to have moved, no matter the situation

 

Why?

 

Why does one Basic rule have more weight than another Basic rule?

 

You've put an arbitrary weight to the Regroup ruling. You'd agree that Regroups 'counts as moving' would be utterly overrulled by an Advance or Codex rule, right? So no, 'no matter the situation' doesn't cut it.

[dswanick]

Problem is - If they "count as" having moved after the 3" consolidate move (even if you didn't actually move them), then they can't move their full "normal" movement because they already "count as" having moved. And the BRB tells you you can't move a model after it has moved (BRB, pg.10).

 

So if ATSKNF doesn't override the "counts as moving", then they can't move more than the 3" Consolidate movement amount. And if it does, then you can fire Heavy Weapons if the model so armed doesn't actually move.

[alex567]

Problem is - If they "count as" having moved after the 3" consolidate move (even if you didn't actually move them), then they can't move their full "normal" movement because they already "count as" having moved. And the BRB tells you you can't move a model after it has moved (BRB, pg.10).

 

So if ATSKNF doesn't override the "counts as moving", then they can't move more than the 3" Consolidate movement amount. And if it does, then you can fire Heavy Weapons if the model so armed doesn't actually move.

 

A unit makes it's regroup test just before it moves, so we add this 3" consolidation to it's normal move, so whether they decide to move or not they count as moving, so we say that the stationary position is a movement in this instance. And page 10 states that you cannot go back to a unit after you have moved on not that you cannot move a model after it has moved. You complete the models whole 9" before you continue onto the next models moving, consolidating is done just as the model is about to move (BRB, pg.31), as such the model is still moving as it completes it's 3" concolidation, and moves into its 6" move.

 

 

as such they are considered having to have moved even if they remained stationary, the overiding comes from that they are considered to have moved, no matter the situation

 

Why?

 

Why does one Basic rule have more weight than another Basic rule?

 

You've put an arbitrary weight to the Regroup ruling. You'd agree that Regroups 'counts as moving' would be utterly overrulled by an Advance or Codex rule, right? So no, 'no matter the situation' doesn't cut it.

 

It doesn't have more weight than another. You can remain stationary but still count as moving. The rules for heavy weapons state that "if a model moves" not if it remains stationary, as such to count as moving, still means that you are considered to have moved for the purposes of this rule. It doesn't matter whether you are declared stationary. you can be stationary but still count as moving. To count as something means you are one thing but considered to be something else. And yes "no matter the situation" does cut it. Because as I said before, you "count" as moving. They are not conflicting.

[Gentlemanloser]

It doesn't have more weight than another. You can remain stationary but still count as moving.

 

This is contradictory.

 

If they have equal weight, rules wise, then if you are declared stationary, you can't still count as moving.

 

You are either Stationary, or moving. you cannot be both.

 

The rules for heavy weapons state that "if a model moves" not if it remains stationary

 

Remains stationary, means has not moved, or doesn't count as having moved.

 

you can be stationary but still count as moving

 

You cannot be declared as being stationary, and count as moving. It's not possible.

[alex567]

you can be stationary but still count as moving

 

You cannot be declared as being stationary, and count as moving. It's not possible.

 

Yes, yes you can. Page 83 ""for the purposes of determining which weapons a heavy vehicle can fire (and at what balistic skill), Heavy vehicles are always treated as having remained stationary." A vehicle can have moved, but counts as being stationary. "counts" as moving does not mean you have moved only that you follow the rules for moving i.e. the old imperial guard priest rules, or in the above scenario heavy vehicles. There is no contradiction, you have remained stationary, but for all intensive purposes count as having moved.

[Gentlemanloser]

You miss that you are declaring a mini to be stationary.

 

Regardless of if it's already moved, or counts as moving.

 

You get the opportunity to declare it is now stationary.

 

Not "has moved, and still counts as having moved", or "hasn't moved, but still counts as having moved".

 

But full on stationary.

 

Which is then at odds with the earlier 'counts as moving' clause from Regroup.

 

Edit: This is a Basic to Basic problem.

 

If Regroup was advanced, you'd declare you were stationary, which would then be over rulled by an Advanced rule that makes you count as moving.

 

Your vehicle example is also bad as it's an Advanced rule.

[alex567]

A model regroups.

A model which has regrouped now gets to make a consolidation move.

whether or not it moves it counts as moving.

It now gets to make its standard move. still counting as moving.

"I declare captain pigskin to be stationary".

Model is declared stationary. Model counts as moving.

 

The model still counts as moving at this point as such although he is stationary, he still counts as moving, you cannot discontinue a rule half way through your move phase.

 

How about a basic rule then? instant death. pg 16 of the big bad rule book. If a model sufferes an unsaved wound from an attack that has a strength value of double its toughness value or greater, it is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casulty.

 

Page 15 states that a model allocated a wound reduces the models wounds by 1.

 

If your arguement was the case, the model would both be on in the instance of a captain 2 wounds and 0 wounds simultaniously. An issue. How can we say for sure that the instant death rule overrides the initial rulling?

[dswanick]

A unit makes it's regroup test just before it moves, so we add this 3" consolidation to it's normal move, so whether they decide to move or not they count as moving, so we say that the stationary position is a movement in this instance. And page 10 states that you cannot go back to a unit after you have moved on not that you cannot move a model after it has moved. You complete the models whole 9" before you continue onto the next models moving, consolidating is done just as the model is about to move (BRB, pg.31), as such the model is still moving as it completes it's 3" concolidation, and moves into its 6" move.

The underlined parts are demonstrably false, simply read the rules for Morale, Consolidation, and And They Shall Know No Fear.

[alex567]

A unit makes it's regroup test just before it moves, so we add this 3" consolidation to it's normal move, so whether they decide to move or not they count as moving, so we say that the stationary position is a movement in this instance. And page 10 states that you cannot go back to a unit after you have moved on not that you cannot move a model after it has moved. You complete the models whole 9" before you continue onto the next models moving, consolidating is done just as the model is about to move (BRB, pg.31), as such the model is still moving as it completes it's 3" concolidation, and moves into its 6" move.

The underlined parts are demonstrably false, simply read the rules for Morale, Consolidation, and And They Shall Know No Fear.

 

After reading said parts I can confirm that the regroup test is made before the model moves in the movement phase, between the passing of this regroup test and moving onto the next unit, a regroup move not a consolidation move is made, along with the models actual movement. You must declare what models are remaining stationary before you move them page 10, as per the regrouping rule page 31 you cannot remain stationary, after this regroup move you then complete their normal move, since the model has already moved you cannot declare then stationary, but you must complete this move before you move onto the next unit, page 10 again. As such per the rule of regrouping they have moved, and as such they count as moving, I would even contest if they were allowed to be declared stationary.

[dswanick]

A unit makes it's regroup test just before it moves, so we add this 3" consolidation to it's normal move, so whether they decide to move or not they count as moving, so we say that the stationary position is a movement in this instance. And page 10 states that you cannot go back to a unit after you have moved on not that you cannot move a model after it has moved. You complete the models whole 9" before you continue onto the next models moving, consolidating is done just as the model is about to move (BRB, pg.31), as such the model is still moving as it completes it's 3" concolidation, and moves into its 6" move.

The underlined parts are demonstrably false, simply read the rules for Morale, Consolidation, and And They Shall Know No Fear.

 

After reading said parts I can confirm that the regroup test is made before the model moves in the movement phase, between the passing of this regroup test and moving onto the next unit, a regroup move not a consolidation move is made, along with the models actual movement. You must declare what models are remaining stationary before you move them page 10, as per the regrouping rule page 31 you cannot remain stationary, after this regroup move you then complete their normal move, since the model has already moved you cannot declare then stationary, but you must complete this move before you move onto the next unit, page 10 again. As such per the rule of regrouping they have moved, and as such they count as moving, I would even contest if they were allowed to be declared stationary.

Not what I was talking about. You do not add the 3" consolidate movement to the models usual 6" movement. And you do not complete the "whole 9"" movement of a model before moving on to the next model.

- Per pg.31, immediately after a success rally, the unit may move up to 3" which is not slowed by Difficult Terrain. And regardless of the actual distance moved, now "counts as" having moved.

- Per pg.33, a unit with ATSKNF can Move, Shoot, and Assault normally after Regrouping(in addition to the 3" Regroup movement). This movement would not ignore Difficult Terrain.

 

The up to 3" Regroup Movement is clearly seperate from the ATSKNF Movement, by virtue both of being sperate rules in seperate sections of the book and by virtue of having different effects in relationship to such things as Difficult Terrain. It is, by the rules, to be completed seperately for the unit and first before doing anything else, and has different rules than a normal (or ATSKNF) Movement. The whole unit must complete its Regroup Movement before any model can begins its ATSKNF Movement.

So the problem becomes:

- Either ATSKNF ignores the "counts as Moving" of the Regroup, in which case During the ATSKNF Movement you are free to declare any models as Stationary, thus firing Heavy Weapons at full BS.

- or, ATSKNF does not ignore the "counts as Moving", in which case the unit may not move more than the Regroup 3" because you can not move a unit twice in a player turn (BRB, Pg.10) and after completing the 3" Regroup movement they now "count as having Moved" when it comes time to do the ATSKNF Movement.