HaSY Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 If the Dark Angels are mysterious during post Heresy, they were even more so before the Heresy. Do they still develop obsession with Plasma weaponry? According to Betrayal Forgeworld, Dark Angels have dedicated warfleets which I think reinforced by Lion's own strategic brilliance in Thramas Crusade. If one needs to make pre heresy Dark Angels, how do you suppose to determine their traits and strategic preferences other than just being stubborn like Iron Hands, Imperial Fists and Salamanders? Despite having more coverage and more books for First Legion which some other Legions do not get (White Scars, Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard or etc), they are still in the mystery and dark. I suppose they are very different than post heresy like not having Deathwings and Ravenwings and also Interrogator- Chaplains... What is their preheresy expertise? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Problem is, they haven't had much screen time. But if anything, they'd be less mysterious. The Lion was a tactical and strategic genius. His Legion would reflect that. Remember, he had more victories than every other primarch except for Horus. Think they still had Deathwing and Ravenwing, though. No Interrogator-Chaplains, obviously (maybe regular ones, dunno). And for the last time: WE DO NOT HAVE A PLASMA FETISH! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3277685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 If you read the HH series Dark Angels stuff, all you can really say is the First Legion uses combined arms. Fallen Angels has a Chaplin leading a tactical squad with a dreadnought (not clear if its a contemptor or regular) for about half the novel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3277740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaSY Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 Problem is, they haven't had much screen time.But if anything, they'd be less mysterious. The Lion was a tactical and strategic genius. His Legion would reflect that. Remember, he had more victories than every other primarch except for Horus. Think they still had Deathwing and Ravenwing, though. No Interrogator-Chaplains, obviously (maybe regular ones, dunno). And for the last time: WE DO NOT HAVE A PLASMA FETISH! hehe.. sorry about the plasma part... I read somewhere that they prefer plasma maybe for hunting fallen Considering that they have the last functioning jetbikes post heresy which even White Scars themselves do not have, I suppose they can have specialised jetbike squadrons... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3277842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 *snip*The Lion was a tactical and strategic genius. His Legion would reflect that. Remember, he had more victories than every other primarch except for Horus. I thought it was the Ultra's that were second, do you have a source? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3277850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrayCatt Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 It is mentioned several times in the fluff. Bear in mind as well, that the Lion was only active in the last 1/4 of the crusades ... The UM were the most successful empire builders, gaining compliance on over 500 worlds, but that was not entirely due to military action. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3277865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaSY Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 *snip*The Lion was a tactical and strategic genius. His Legion would reflect that. Remember, he had more victories than every other primarch except for Horus. I thought it was the Ultra's that were second, do you have a source? From Bran Dawn in dakka dakka forum http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts.../30/497255.page ''Wrong. They had the most worlds brought into compliance. IIRC, it also states that Guilliman was the most able at bringing worlds into the Imperium through diplomacy rather than violence. Where military victories are concerned, however, the tally is as Darth Marko stated: Horus, Johnson, Russ; in that order. It's one of the reasons for the rivalry between Johnson and Russ, both of whom were very glory-hungry. (Out of the rivalry grew respect, and eventually the two became close friends, but that's not terribly relevant here - or is it?) '' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3277868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 *snip*The Lion was a tactical and strategic genius. His Legion would reflect that. Remember, he had more victories than every other primarch except for Horus. I thought it was the Ultra's that were second, do you have a source? From Bran Dawn in dakka dakka forum http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts.../30/497255.page ''Wrong. They had the most worlds brought into compliance. IIRC, it also states that Guilliman was the most able at bringing worlds into the Imperium through diplomacy rather than violence. Where military victories are concerned, however, the tally is as Darth Marko stated: Horus, Johnson, Russ; in that order. It's one of the reasons for the rivalry between Johnson and Russ, both of whom were very glory-hungry. (Out of the rivalry grew respect, and eventually the two became close friends, but that's not terribly relevant here - or is it?) '' Exactly. That. As for the actual sources, they're too spread out to do a quick search. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3277884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Thanks, had not realized that. I love the fluff for the DA in the HH, particularly how many badass quotes Jonson has. The one about how the DA's were not at Isstvaan because Horus feared them was a great example of his attitude. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3277890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 It is mentioned several times in the fluff. Bear in mind as well, that the Lion was only active in the last 1/4 of the crusades ... The UM were the most successful empire builders, gaining compliance on over 500 worlds, but that was not entirely due to military action. I believe it's 1/2 of the crusades if memory serves, but the point is still there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3277892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 hehe.. sorry about the plasma part...I read somewhere that they prefer plasma maybe for hunting fallen Ah, but the Fallen they want alive. Plasma does not help in that regard. The "plasma fetish" thing was more of just speculation based on some old rules. The current DA codex has no more emphasis on plasma weaponry than any other. Now, that may change in the new codex - but the idea is an emphasis on ancient tech in general, not just plasma weapons. This is simply based on the idea that they would have had a lot of it held over from the Crusade era. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3277897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 The 2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death was the first to mention the victories of Horus, Jonson and Russ. I think the Index Astartes of the Dark Angels mentioned it next, then probably the Codex Dark Angels. Unfortunately I do not have my books with me at the moment, so I cannot cite page numbers. The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines state that Guilliman liberated the most worlds. Why Guilliman is said to have liberated the most worlds while Horus, Jonson and Russ are said to have the most victories is never explained, as far as I know. I do not recall reading in any source that Guilliman was able to liberate worlds peacefully more often than others. He was certainly willing to try that, but then so was Horus, who was specifically described as often being able to find diplomatic solutions. Quite on the contrary, the Ultramarine sources instead usually point towards Guillimants "great talent for war", and that the Ultramarines Legion "suffered fewer casualties than the other Legions" in their campaigns. It may just be a lack of coordination between the authors of the 2nd Edition Codices. But I for one have allways explained it as military victories over xenos fleets or xenos worlds not contributing anything to the number of "liberated worlds" while still counting as military victories. Every time a Legion would have to come to the aid of an already Imperial world against alien raiders or a new rebellion that would also count as a victory, and the Ultramarines probably had to do that less than other Legions since their worlds were usually very well defended and prosperous. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3277902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 hehe.. sorry about the plasma part...I read somewhere that they prefer plasma maybe for hunting fallen Ah, but the Fallen they want alive. Plasma does not help in that regard. The "plasma fetish" thing was more of just speculation based on some old rules. The current DA codex has no more emphasis on plasma weaponry than any other. Now, that may change in the new codex - but the idea is an emphasis on ancient tech in general, not just plasma weapons. This is simply based on the idea that they would have had a lot of it held over from the Crusade era. Well, those Volkite weapons would be an excellent way to show that... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3277939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 But I for one have allways explained it as military victories over xenos fleets or xenos worlds not contributing anything to the number of "liberated worlds" while still counting as military victories. Every time a Legion would have to come to the aid of an already Imperial world against alien raiders or a new rebellion that would also count as a victory, and the Ultramarines probably had to do that less than other Legions since their worlds were usually very well defended and prosperous. Suppose that's a nice way to spin it. The Lion, having not entered the crusade until the half way mark, may have had many of those types of situations to deal with in addition to bringing compliance. Another fluffy interpretation of the conflicting information could also be that the codices/index entries are written in biased manner. Lost to time, the ravages of the heresy and never ending war lies the true tally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3277948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Weren't the Imperial Fists up there as well, I remember it mentioned somewhere that they were nearly as successful as the Sons of Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3277974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I think there are legion victories and Primarch. I've read where the Emperor accompanied the 1st Legion around until he found the Lion. If so the Legion would have a huge victory count and by extension the Lion. Or perhaps after Alpharius was found they did a score reset? The score count of Horus, the Lion, Russ is mentioned in the "Lion and the Wolf" story in Angels of Death and the IA:DA The HH novels indicate Dorn was 2nd to Horus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3277976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 The Horus Heresy novels of course flat out dismiss a lot of the earlier material. Jonson having the second highest number of victories of course makes no sense if he only had half the time of several other Primarchs. I assume the Horus Heresy novels at no point suggest that Jonson had such a high number of victories? The Horus heresy series also came up with the notion that the Imperial Fists were second to the Luna Wolves. This similarly is contradictory to the older material. So what we basically have is: "Old" lore (or "Warhammer 40,000 game lore"): Jonson had the second highest amount of victories. Dorn is not specifically mentioned for his successes. "New" lore (or "Black Library lore"): Dorn had the second highest amount of victories. Jonson is not specifically mentioned for his successes, and was only really active for half the Crusade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3278098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Or it would indicate just how awesome the Lion was. Still, in-universe, there's the notion that older=better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3278134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaSY Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 Lion is so awesome that he can let his future First Company to be fitted with all Terminators Squads. Dark Angels are indeed well equipped warrior monks, making Iron Hands drool and Raven Guard jealous of their darkness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3278160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrayCatt Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 current HH fluff still supports the win count of the Lion/DA, but does not explicitly state if it is pre-post Lion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3278496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knives Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Something I been running as a shadow thought in my mind... is a possibly Lion having a close tie to the Adepts Mechanics... If you have had the chance to read the HH novels of the Decent of Angels and The Fallen you'll see the large portion connecting the Machine cult to the scene they attack. YES they are on a forge world but the use of Landspeeder/plasma weapons ... plus if you read current codex... they can still have a tech-marine for each tank on the field. I just think that personally they have a large foot hold in bring back old marine tech. If you want to show the Lion brilliance ... show it by his deck of cards he keeps in his forge locker. Old tanks... new tanks and the styles in-between. I plan to keep to this trend in the future DA I play but ... that is how the Lion has taught me... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3278631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 To be fair, lets break down some of the things we know. Firstly, it is widely established that Horus and the Luna Wolves were #1 in terms of number of compliance's, victories and generally seen as the best of the best. It is not established who was last, although the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion could both be argued to fill this spot. Secondly, we know that the various primarchs were collected over a period of roughly 150 years, Alpharius being the last. It is never explicitly laid out when the Lion, Dorn, Russ or Guilliman were located, but none of them are mentioned as being late comers. Thirdly, we know from the HH series that expedition fleets were launched in various different directions, not always under the direct leadership of the legions respective Primarchs. Sometimes fleets were also made of of forces from multiple legions, under the command of a single Primarch. A notable example surely is that Fulgrim's Emperors children were attached to the Luna Wolves for a long time in their early history, as were the Alpha Legion. What this leads me to think is that the "victory count" is based upon the what the Legion did, not necessarily the Primarch. As Horus was the first found, these numbers are one and the same, but for the others they could be very different. The reason I would say this, is that there are several examples of Legion expeditions headed up by non Primarchs who achieve compliance (so this would could as a Legion victory), and numerous examples of where multiple Primarchs were involved in a single compliance. For example, would the compliance achieved in Promethean Sun count as a victory for Mortation, Vulkan or Ferrus Mannus? Surely, in any military organisation, you have a command structure in place of first captaints etc in order that the Primarch is not necessary. The legions did not all stop crusading during Ullanor, I think in the first three HH books it is mentioned that not even all of the Luna Wolves were there. So, I would say it was more based on overall Legion victories, not how many were commanded by the Primarch, but for Horus these two are one and the same. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269083-pre-heresy-dark-angels/#findComment-3278686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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