One rule

[Nehekhare]

This is for all the disappointed ones like me: If you could change ONE SINGULAR thing about C:CSM to make it work/better/acceptable/not total crap, what would it be?

 

For me: Warpsmith makes Mauler-/Forgefiends elite choices.

[Iron_Within]

I'm struggling to fault that choice N. Maybe 1 as Troops?

[Excessus]

A chaos artefact:

Daemonic weapon.............15p

Gives the Daemon Weapon special rule to one of the character's close combat weapons.

 

Super-customizable option that can do just about anything. 15p+weapon cost seems fair, 30p for a daemonic power weapon(a daemonic power axe using this system would still be unweildy AP2 and +1S, as an example), 40p for a daemonic power fist..and so on. The axe and maul has limitations and other special rules(like AP2 at I and so on) and so should be more expensive...

[AekoldHelbrass]

Hm, does "rewrite the Codex entirely" counts as one thiing?

 

If not, then changing only one thing will not work. I'd say at least everything HQ-related should be changed, like adding more artifacts and daemon weapons, renaming current Chaos Lord to Chaos Lieutenant and adding Chaos Lord as in FB, changing Boons table entirely. Other than that, double FOC and "count as" solves the problems with all other units for me.

[Polaria]

Hm, does "rewrite the Codex entirely" counts as one thiing?

 

No, because there is no quarantee what it will look like after rewrite. :P

[RapatoR]

Add a point value(s) to every one of the boons, then make possible your sarges, ICs and DPs for those points.

 

EDIT But I am not disappointed with codex, it is fine IMO.

[Sception]

There is no one rule that fixes everything for me, but...

 

The biggest thing I would ask for is additional transport options. Either drop pods/dread claws or an affordable, daemonic AV12 assault transport with frag launchers or equivalent. The former would do a lot for shooty chosen, CSMs, and dreadnoughts, while the latter would render potentially viable (or at least less awful) berzerkers, assaulty chosen, and possessed.

 

But thousand sons and warp talons would still need targeted fixes, raptors and bikes would still need some reworking to give the former a role that the latter isn't just outright better at*, the points cost of plasma pistols needs to be rethought, adding back of teleport homers would be a big deal, champion of chaos and the boon table needs some rethinking, a generic daemon weapon, and maybe some more chaos-specific tech in general....

 

I don't absolutely hate the current book. I really don't. But it has a lot of issues, with no one fix to cover them.

 

 

*my favorite changes to address the bikes/raptors issue would be taking away the bikes' pistols and selling them back at 2 points a model, maybe up the cost of their melee marks a bit. Then reduce the cost of raptors' vets upgrade to 1 point a model, maybe reduce their total points cost by one as well, or allow up to four special weapons in havoc squads.

 

There's a problem in the book of making assault upgrades more expensive on assault units. When your 'shooty' units are already generalists with strong assault leanings, doing so just makes your assault units worse at everything than your shooty units, who can do both while also being cheaper. Ref MoK ultragrit CSMs who are cheaper than berzerkers, or bikes that are only a pittance more expensive than raptors.

[Smurfalypse]

There is no one rule that fixes everything for me, but...

 

The biggest thing I would ask for is additional transport options. Either drop pods/dread claws or an affordable, daemonic AV12 assault transport with frag launchers or equivalent. The former would do a lot for shooty chosen, CSMs, and dreadnoughts, while the latter would render potentially viable (or at least less awful) berzerkers, assaulty chosen, and possessed.

 

But thousand sons and warp talons would still need targeted fixes, raptors and bikes would still need some reworking to give the former a role that the latter isn't just outright better at*, the points cost of plasma pistols needs to be rethought, adding back of teleport homers would be a big deal, champion of chaos and the boon table needs some rethinking, a generic daemon weapon, and maybe some more chaos-specific tech in general....

 

I don't absolutely hate the current book. I really don't. But it has a lot of issues, with no one fix to cover them.

 

 

*my favorite changes to address the bikes/raptors issue would be taking away the bikes' pistols and selling them back at 2 points a model, maybe up the cost of their melee marks a bit. Then reduce the cost of raptors' vets upgrade to 1 point a model, maybe reduce their total points cost by one as well, or allow up to four special weapons in havoc squads.

 

There's a problem in the book of making assault upgrades more expensive on assault units. When your 'shooty' units are already generalists with strong assault leanings, doing so just makes your assault units worse at everything than your shooty units, who can do both while also being cheaper. Ref MoK ultragrit CSMs who are cheaper than berzerkers, or bikes that are only a pittance more expensive than raptors.

 

I agree with this statement 100% actually.

 

I do not hate the book, but it certainly isnt a great book either. To many units that are literally unfieldable, some units are undercosted a bit (bikers) and that makes all other choices in that slot non-viable in a competative setting.

[Vesper]

Non-viable is a bit excessive in my opinion. Stuff like Chaos spawns and heldrake fill the FA slot while still having different purposes and uses than the bikers.

Yet, I share the "that's it ?" feeling about the book.

[Hellios]

I would have removed cult troops and made being cult an upgrade like marks but keeping marks so that people who don't want to be as dedicated or want none rubric tzeentch troops can still be happy :wacko:. I would then let the mark be applied to most things... Rubric Havocs... Might not be fluffy (Not sure why...) but If I'm a fluff player I don't have to take them, but as a fluff player I get Rubric terminators... YAY! Might this make some units too good? Maybe... but you could take the time to mess with the costs or additional rules from unit to unit if you really wanted to.

[breng77]

I actually like the Dex a lot, but the one thing I would change is the Must Challange/accept challanges rules. Or at least remove it from an every character thing. Does my cultist champion really need/want to fight that hive tyrant one on one? That is literally the worst rule in the entire book as it allows powerful characters simply to eat squads that are incapable of really hurting them. Couple that with lack of ATSKNF (or fearless on many units), and you just end up gettting rolled in CC.

[Sception]

spawn and heldrakes are alright. I mean, spawn are hard to justify due to how good (arguably too good) heldrakes and bikers are, but they still do their own thing and do it well enough, and slots are less of an issue in areas that employ the rather common 'no fliers' gentleman's agreement.

 

It's raptors that have the most notable problems in comparison to bikes. I still see people field them because the models are better/cheaper, but for the most part there's very little that raptors do that bikes don't just do better.

 

 

It's not the biggest issue in the codex, but it is particularly annoying to me since raptors are, imo, the best of the new model releases (not counting DV stuff), and there's just really no reason, rules wise, to field them, which has prevented me from picking any up.

 

 

 

Actually, can I change my answer? I still think transport options would make the biggest difference (and with FW pulling their dreadclaw model I cling to the far-fetched hope that that issue may be actually be addressed at some point), but if I had to change just one thing, It would be to add the following item of wargear as an option for any unit that can take an icon, regardless of mark:

 

"Summoning Icon": 10 to 15ish points, in addition to the +1 combat res for being an icon, any Chaos Space Marine or Chaos Daemon unit that deep strikes within 12" of this icon does not scatter.

 

Or, heck, maybe just make it work for CSM units only, but I want my teleport homers back. My absolute favorite tactic of deep striking chaos lord + terminators has been just completely non-functional without them. It makes my bitter traitor's heart shed sad miserable tears of black liquid sorrow.

 

http://th04.deviantart.net/fs70/150/i/2011/287/d/e/black_liquid_sorrow_by_couplesfan-d4ct0xw.jpg

 

-------------------------

 

A chaos artefact:

Daemonic weapon.............15p

Gives the Daemon Weapon special rule to one of the character's close combat weapons.

 

I like this, but

 

- I don't think 'generic daemon weapon' should qualify as a 'unique item'

- prefer typhus's daemonic force weapon as something unique to him

- don't fancy the idea of daemonic lightning claws or power fists, seems too gimmicky / insufficiently iconic

 

Make it 20 points, a non-unique gift, and can only be applied to mundane close combat weapons and (all standard varieties of) power weapons (purchased separately).

[Warsmith Aznable]

A single thing, eh?

 

Chaos Terminators would be merged with Chosen, giving Chosen the option to take TDA.

 

That one little thing would make me forgive everything else I don't like about the new codex.

[Sinners Red]

Max brings up a good point I ne'er thought of.

 

I would like Warp Talons to get assault grenades or some special ability equivalent.

I think that would be fun.

[derpasaurus]

i have only 2 real problems with the codex, warp talons sorta suck, but if i had to only choose one thing to change, it would have to be the challenge rules.

 

:P you chaos gods, i am not sending my havoc champion into a 1 v 1 brawl with a daemon prince/dreadknight. fix champion of chaos so you don't have to challenge EVERY SINGLE THING IN THE UNIVERSE with (ch) next to it ALL THE FREAKING TIME and i'll deal with sucky warp talons just fine. they're 300 pts for a squad anyway.

[Smurfalypse]

Non-viable is a bit excessive in my opinion. Stuff like Chaos spawns and heldrake fill the FA slot while still having different purposes and uses than the bikers.

Yet, I share the "that's it ?" feeling about the book.

 

More was referring to other power armored guys in the same slot that share the same kind of role. There is no reason to ever take a raptor or warp talon instead of a biker. Same in the elite slot with terminators over shadowing everything else there.

[Vesper]

I concur, then.

 

A single thing, eh?

 

Chaos Terminators would be merged with Chosen, giving Chosen the option to take TDA.

 

That one little thing would make me forgive everything else I don't like about the new codex.

 

We miss 3.5 so much.

 

EDIT : to whythre, just below me.

The Champion of Chaos rule is nothing more than a way to justify the presence of the boons table.

[Azekai]

Gotta agree with Derpasaurus. The 'champion of chaos' rule makes all of our champs insanely stupid. Our squad leaders will throw themselves at Bloodthirsters, Avatars, and C'tan shards, even when they have no chance of actually winning. This sort of behavior is only fitting of the maddest berserkers, not every single chaos line officer ever.

 

It isn't fun or 'characterful.' It's nonsense.

[Ammonius]

How about changing Gift of Chaos to read "Pick a Non-Nothing, Non-Spawn, Non-Daemon Prince result from the Chaos Boon Table. The model has that result for the entire game."

 

Think of the complaints we'd hear from our opponents!

[breng77]

I concur, then.

 

A single thing, eh?

 

Chaos Terminators would be merged with Chosen, giving Chosen the option to take TDA.

 

That one little thing would make me forgive everything else I don't like about the new codex.

 

We miss 3.5 so much.

 

EDIT : to whythre, just below me.

The Champion of Chaos rule is nothing more than a way to justify the presence of the boons table.

 

 

It is a lazy way to justify said table. An easy fix would be, If you fail to challange/refuse a challange you lose any boons you had previously attained. So you have a reason to challange, and not want to run away, but it prevents you from suiciding guys into fights they cannot win.

 

Or

You could have a chaos bane table or something that you roll on with negative effects for refusing challanges.

 

Ideally the best (fluffy idea) would be god specific boon tables and rules, so your khone guy recieves CC buff for killing guys in CC (maybe he has to challange, but you build him to do it) but your Tzeentch sorcerer gets rolls that benefit psychic powers, for killing guys with psychic powers or something.

 

How about changing Gift of Chaos to read "Pick a Non-Nothing, Non-Spawn, Non-Daemon Prince result from the Chaos Boon Table. The model has that result for the entire game."

 

Think of the complaints we'd hear from our opponents!

 

 

Indeed as every unit has shrouded.

[Sinners Red]

The challenge mechanic can be avoided (sometimes) with proper model placement, or at least that is my understanding.

 

I think if the boon table had like points value to it, kinda like the way psychers work. Each champion starting with like a 1 point boon, and then the GoM offering additional points or something.

 

Edit

 

Also, people can decline challenges and all that jazz right? Why would someone waste a DP or some other close combat giant on your regular champ when he can probably do more damage not in the challenge, and just lock your champ up with a random dudesmen?

Or am I just way off on that one?

[Sanctimonius]

It's a tossup between Champions of Chaos and the Chosen being a missed opportunity. CoC has the potential to absolutely ruin games for your forces and never really offers much in the way of benefit in return. And the Chosen - I was hoping for something along the lines of the Wolf Guard. Allow them to upgrade to TDA, options to split them up amongst the other units or as a bodyguard etc. It annoys me that a Loyalist army has a more flexible force organisation than we do :lol:

[Iron_Within]

Okay, I've got it with "Champion of Chaos":

 

In Close Combat must issues challenges if possible. They can opt against this by passing Leadership Test

 

I'd be tempted to add Fearless characters cannot refuse as this would be a characterful way of ensuring that the Champions are attempting to save their own skin.

 

Alternatively, keep the CoC rule as is but allow all Champions to still opt to make "look out sir" attempts; essentially they jump forward like the moustachio villain GW wants them to be then throw their minions in the way when the realise it's a bit more than they can chew. This I think might be a bit insane though as a Lord in a unit of Cultists would be unkillable.... Actually that would be hilarious

[Vesper]

Gift of Mutation should be part of the Champion of Chaos rule. For free. Just to give a chance to have an edge during the forced challenges.

[Azekai]

The challenge mechanic can be avoided (sometimes) with proper model placement, or at least that is my understanding.

Side stepping a dumb rule doesn't make the rule itself tolerable.

 

Also, people can decline challenges and all that jazz right? Why would someone waste a DP or some other close combat giant on your regular champ when he can probably do more damage not in the challenge, and just lock your champ up with a random dudesmen?

Or am I just way off on that one?

 

Well, single model units (like DPs or greater daemons or dreadknights) can never refuse a challenge. But most of the time they charge you, kill your high LD squad leader and then mop up the rest of the squad in the subsequent fight phase; this shields them from a round of shooting and still results in a dead/fleeing squad.

 

Challenge mechanic is unnecessary. I never had a situation in 5th where I wished that HQs could pair off and have a super dramatic jedi duel, let alone be forced into such a silly one-on-one fight.