momerathe Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Hi all, I've been trying to figure out how to equip the aspiring champion in my CSM squads. One of the things I've been thinking about is trying to maximise their chances of winning challenges - not against HQs, but ordinary sergeants and suchlike. The problem I've run up against in all this is Ork Nobs. Their two wounds mean that it's pretty difficult to gank them on initiative - you just don't have enough attacks, and if you go with the fist then the Nob attacking back will (80% chance or better) kill your dude. To get my head around this I've made some charts: Chaos charge w. MoK weapon champ win ork win both die both live twin LC .62 .3 0 .08 LC .48 .42 0 .1 Fist .18 .09 .71 .02 Chaos charge weapon champ win ork win both die both live twin LC .48 .42 0 .1 LC .32 .54 0 .14 Fist .16 .16 .64 .04 Ork Charge weapon champ win ork win both die both live twin LC .32 .61 0 .07 LC .14 .77 0 .09 Fist .07 .3 .59 .04 (I didn't bother with power weapons as they're pretty much strictly worse that the alternatives, I also realise I should have done another chart for receiving a charge with MoK, but it's not so different to the middle one) You can see that even with twin lightning claws on the charge it's pretty much a coinflip (though it does give you the best overall chance of survival). So what's the right strategy? try to optimise the win, or try to not-lose? I'm tempted by the former, as even if you do get squished by the nob, if they're still locked in combat next round your CSMs will have a chance to get revenge. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 asp champs die , they are sacrificial models . puting more points in to them aint a viable tactic , specialy when faced with odd that are clearly not in favor of the csm . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 try math mammer with a power mace, as believe it or not they are probably the best thing against orks and ap4 still works!!! so you get the bonus attack and wound on 2s and ignore armour, tis just the hitting point which you are suffering, which you have that problem no matter which weapon you are using... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momerathe Posted January 4, 2013 Author Share Posted January 4, 2013 try math mammer with a power mace, as believe it or not they are probably the best thing against orks and ap4 still works!!! so you get the bonus attack and wound on 2s and ignore armour, tis just the hitting point which you are suffering, which you have that problem no matter which weapon you are using... good idea, I'll try it out when I've got a moment. asp champs die , they are sacrificial models . puting more points in to them aint a viable tactic , specialy when faced with odd that are clearly not in favor of the csm . hmm. so what do you suggest; fist (if they're going to die anyway they may as well take someone with them) or naked? any dissenting opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I dont know how your list looks like , but in general you shouldnt have enough points to be buying stuff for your asp champions , nor should they be your prime source of melee support for csm/pm units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiron Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 What about Power Maul? +2 s with full I could hurt even the Nob... And IIRC they are mostly 3+ armour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 3A on +4 wounding on +2 still dont kill a nob . and do nothing in meq situations and meq are more then half of all armies and considering ally this edition there is more of them on the tables then ever before . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaria Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 asp champs die , they are sacrificial models . puting more points in to them aint a viable tactic , specialy when faced with odd that are clearly not in favor of the csm . I don't think you can treat AC like a Space Marine Sergeant. Unless you are running a Fearless unit, that is. SM Sergeants are sacrificial lambs, no doubt about it, but if you get your AC killed you just drop to Ld 8 and risk losing the whole squad in Sweeping Advance if things go wrong... I would definitely pay the premium for one LC (or even two) to avoid losing everything in one fell sweep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 but if you get your AC killed you just drop to Ld 8 and risk losing the whole squad in Sweeping Advance if things go wrong But apparently that's a viable tactic so that would make it the smart thing to do. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 i dont know about you guys but if im going down i want to take the brute that did it down with me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 but if you get your AC killed you just drop to Ld 8 and risk losing the whole squad in Sweeping Advance if things go wrong But apparently that's a viable tactic so that would make it the smart thing to do. :huh: Actually, I believe it's why Jeske seems to talk more about nurgle lords / plague marines rather than khorn axe lords / CSMs these days. I believe the point is that even tooled up, if you bump your champs into serious challenge threats you're going to lose them more often than not, while non-threatening squad leaders can just dodge your challenges anyway, unless you're playing against other chaos marines. So you can spend 200+ points tooling up the champions in your army and end up with mostly sacrificial chump guys anyway, or you can just accept that they're sacrificial chumps and use that money to buy another unit entirely instead, maybe one allied in from a better codex. I'm not sure whether I agree with the premise, but it really isn't hard to grasp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 ] I don't think you can treat AC like a Space Marine Sergeant. Unless you are running a Fearless unit, that is. SM Sergeants are sacrificial lambs, no doubt about it, I would definitely pay the premium for one LC (or even two) to avoid losing everything in one fell sweep. because a LC is going to save your champion from dieing . Check how much it costs for 3-4 units , upgrade you may never use is not worth the points it costs. on biker champs yes does make more sense , because you can make them t5-6 and they will end up in melee , because their HQ cargo . but csm should rethink going melee against other armies , unless they know their are superior. you have dual plasma while charge lets say a tactical and get tarpited in it for 1-2 turns , while losing models twice as offten as you would from shoting[2 melee phases per turn +possible overwatch] ? but if you get your AC killed you just drop to Ld 8 and risk losing the whole squad in Sweeping Advance if things go wrong... why do you let an orc charge you [and how does that even happen. If it is on an objective then your unit is probably figting nob bikers and is dead anyway] , if things go wrong against superior units in melee the champion alive or not alive doesnt matter . i dont know about you guys but if im going down i want to take the brute that did it down with me... if you kill him then your not dieing because a nobz I is lower then a csms . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I'm not sure whether I agree with the premise Hence I said it was a "viable tactic." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momerathe Posted January 4, 2013 Author Share Posted January 4, 2013 so to give some context to my question, I'm thinking of a large squad of CSMs (10-15), with extra CCWs and maybe MoK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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