jansuza Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 So since the new edition has come out, I've been quite against the whole flyer thing, as to me it ruined the 'balance' of an otherwise okay system. I've left it for some time, but I'm now starting to play competitively again and every so often I come up against a flyer-spam (mostly necrons and guard) that I just can't adequately deal with. Because I don't like flyers, I'm also not using any heldrakes, as all of my fast attack choices are full anyway. This leaves me with 6 oblits and an aegis defense line in 1850 points, and I'm seriously considering getting a second aegis defense line and just not using most of the wall sections as they're a bit redundant! So the question stands, in 1500 to 1850 point games, how do you go about taking down vendettas and scythe-spam? Should I just get off my high horse and buy a heldrake or two like everybody else? What say you, oh bolter and chainsword? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I'd just accept fliers. Also, consider allying in some guard, or change your force to be individual durable enough that you can safely ignore fliers for most missions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 i've actually not had much use for flakk missiles yet, as excited as i was to finally get the ability to use them. probably more model placement and varying flier priorities in my meta tho, lol. i have borrowed a friends ADL and run that in a couple of games, which is far and away the most reliable way outside of another flier. icarus lascannon can hit anything anywhere. quadgun is nice, too, more bullets but more expensive. i'm hoping to add some flier kills to my new heldrake soon. just finished building it, should get to fool with it this weekend. 1d3+1 s7 ap3 auto hits on anything its wings moved over, resolved during the movement phase? yes please. also if you really want to dedicate that thing to blasting fliers, consider the hades cannon instead of the flamer. not big on internets wisdumb but you still get an average of 2 hits with it and its s8, so even if you can't pass over a flyer, if you're pointed generally at it you can still try and pop it from up to 3 feet away. not too shabby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 and I'm seriously considering getting a second aegis defense line and just not using most of the wall sections as they're a bit redundant! You can only take fortification for your army I'm afraid, so that's not an option. So the question stands, in 1500 to 1850 point games, how do you go about taking down vendettas and scythe-spam? Should I just get off my high horse and buy a heldrake or two like everybody else? You have a couple of options: 1. Go for an 'ignore fliers' build. Some builds simply don't care much about fliers. (you gotta aim at taking units which aren't hurted much by fliers ánd which can kill the opposing ground forces) 2. Take helldrakes + Aegis + Havocs and hope it's enough. Yeah, hoping. Problem is that opposing fliers + ground forces can kill your anti-air. This is potentially devastating for you and is why I personally don't like taking certain units for AA purposes. (I believe that armies which don't naturally include Anti-air shouldn't bother trying) 3. If you can't beat them, join them. Ally Guard or Crons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jansuza Posted January 4, 2013 Author Share Posted January 4, 2013 That's something else I've been getting alot lately. Take some allied guard. It seems a bit excessive to take a decent chunk of your points and give it to the puny humies, just because they figured out how to make their tanks look 'up'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 You can only take fortification for your army I'm afraid, so that's not an option. You can take one Fortification per Primary Detachment. If you have two HQs and four Troops, you can take two Aegis Defence Lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 You can only take fortification for your army I'm afraid, so that's not an option. You can take one Fortification per Primary Detachment. If you have two HQs and four Troops, you can take two Aegis Defence Lines. He plays between 1500 - 1850 he said, while taking two detachments needs 2000+. (Even most tournaments at 2000 don't allow it and play '1999+1' but that aside) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaria Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Get a Heldrake, equip with Hades autocannon, drop the enemy flyers out of the sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 CSMs seem to be able to win the ground war fairly handily. They are very points efficient (we are talking competative), tough, can shoot well and can CC very well. There are not too many armies that can really go toe to toe with CSMs in a pure ground war. We however have very little vs an airforce. If you really feel the need to protect yourself the single best way is to ally with Necron and take two min squads of warriors and hop them in a Nightsythe. This adds two good scoring units that you can throw down somewhere near the end of the game and adds two flyers that have very good weapons for dealing with other flyers. Both units come at around a 330ish point cost total. This does not include the HQ you must take with them as well. I do not think we are capable of handling a pure airforce army on our own, but that is expected in the world of allies :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 He plays between 1500 - 1850 he said, while taking two detachments needs 2000+. (Even most tournaments at 2000 don't allow it and play '1999+1' but that aside) Ah, I missed that bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 1-2 fliers-> ignore them and try to play to win the mission. 3+ fliers-> don't play them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 1-2 fliers-> ignore them and try to play to win the mission.3+ fliers-> don't play them. Post is about competative play, so no just "not playing them". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 For competitive AA? Getting guard allies is your best bet. A few renegade vendettas will sort them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaria Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 1-2 fliers-> ignore them and try to play to win the mission.3+ fliers-> don't play them. Post is about competative play, so no just "not playing them". Well... the original posts Because I don't like flyers, I'm also not using any heldrakes, as all of my fast attack choices are full anyway. pretty much rules away any "competitive play" in the sense of "aiming to win against competitive lists". I mean you don't have to love the Heldrakes but accepting that they are one of the strongest units in our codex and our best option to deal with opposing flyers is what you need for true "competitive play"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snejk Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 A buddy of mine that i play against on regular basis (2 times a year or so...) has 6 Valkyries and 1 Vulture. I suppose I need to get myself one or two Turkeys, sorry Drakes..., because counting on good luck and Quad gun fire wount get me nowhere. And I don't have enough ML guys to equip with Flakk either. I guess Turkeys is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Fliers? Vector striking drakes, IG allies with orders and just ignore by moving into areas they can't fire at... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Heldrake Vector strike the Hell out of them. Or a unit of Cultists in a Aegis line with Quatro-Tube AA canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 hadesdrakes as AA are wasted potential imo. 4 bs3 s8 shots and the occasional d3 s7 vector strikes for 170 pts is not much compared to 3 TL LCs for 130 (vendetta). and what does it do if there are no fliers? a vendetta will pop tanks regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minionboy Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 hadesdrakes as AA are wasted potential imo. 4 bs3 s8 shots and the occasional d3 s7 vector strikes for 170 pts is not much compared to 3 TL LCs for 130 (vendetta). and what does it do if there are no fliers? a vendetta will pop tanks regardless. I think this is a pretty defeatist attitude. Frankly, for 130 points there is nothing in the game as effective for anti-air. That said, I would never take the Hades Autocannon on a drake for anti-air, the D3+1 Vector strike hits at S7 is a good start actually, you can fly on the board, over a flyer and then back off, then do it again the next turn, it statistically causes just as much damage as a cultist using a quad gun. You get to do damage with 0 risk to your own unit, on top of that, if they don't have any decent anti-air, you can choose to not zoom off and fire the Baleflamer at some marines. Aside from the Quad-gun or allies, the Heldrake is the best Anti-air solution chaos has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Short answer: Orks. For 300pts you get a big mek, squad of gretchin, and 15 Lootas. That's 15-45 autocannon shots per turn, which should be more than enough to blow a flier out of the air each turn. Even better, put them behind the defense line and go to ground for your 2+ cover... your to-hit rolls only go down from 5+ to 6 by being pinned, and you have enough shots to simply not care. I also like Orks as allies because you could make some excellent chaos mutant conversions, because they mesh well with our infantry-heavy army, and because they have lots of options for expanding as allies (warboss on bike, biker nobs, mob of boyz, and dakka jet are all good options). I think this is the solution for you because it gives you competitive, flavorful units to fill the niche you need, while still letting you avoid jumping on the flier bandwagon. IG are great if you want to run vendettas, but without those they don't offer much help with AA. Also, I agree with whomever said Heldrakes are wasted if you give them Hades Autocannons. The Baleflamer is just way, WAY too good to pass up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Imperial guard allies are youre best bet for ground pounders vs flyers, something along the lines of Commandsquad + the guy that delays reserves (never give up on an oppurtunity to spread the arrival of flyers), 10 vets and 2 hydras in 1 vehicle squadron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Underbelly Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 |if you're not keen on the drake flyer model how about using a hell talon model from Forge World and using it as a counts as? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Autocannon havocs can be an ok anti flyer/anti vehicle unit, although relying on snapfire for anti air when you only fire 8 shots isn't brilliant.I have my 4 auto havocs + hadesfiend for ranged firepower/anti flyer, they are a bit hit and miss ;) I also have a baledrake, and it can do decent anti flyer hits, though you have to tempt the flyer within range (and still have space to land) so it doesn't always work vs a canny opponent. I am actually considering replacing the hadesfiend for a hadesdrake. While I am of the opinion that a baledrake is awesome, a hadesdrake does have a better chance of getting a hit then a hadesfiend does on flyers. If you are playing competitively the best option for anti flyers is allies, as mentioned above. Imperial guard or orks. I've played vs orks with 15 loota's in a battlewagon and that is 15/30/45 str 7 shots needing 6s. You can also get in the Dakkajet, which I just love the look off (especially as I've seen one converted into a viper from battlestar galactica. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 |if you're not keen on the drake flyer model how about using a hell talon model from Forge World and using it as a counts as? I hate the drake model and it being , what, about $75, makes me hate it more. I was thinking about a old chaos dragon model for a baledrake (firebreather + can attack things in the air). Or a HEAVILY converted SM or IG flyer into a daemonforge, daemonicly possessed flyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Hadesdrakes are now much more viable vs other flyers because of the turret mounts too. Zip past the other flyer and shoot it from behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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