Chaos vs flyers

[Slayer le Boucher]

 

|if you're not keen on the drake flyer model how about using a hell talon model from Forge World and using it as a counts as?

I hate the drake model  and it being , what, about $75, makes me hate it more. I was thinking about a old chaos dragon model for a baledrake (firebreather + can attack things in the air). Or a HEAVILY converted SM or IG flyer into a daemonforge, daemonicly possessed flyer.

Realy?...

 

You hate  the drake, makes no apparent attempts to convert it to your likings, but you want to convert those OLd ugly arse Dragons models, to have something no better, heavy, un-easy to store/transport and to put on the table?...

 

A converted SM flyer, yeah might work, but its also 50$ for the model, and not counting the bits...

A old dragon model?, why not one of the new Zombie Dragon/HE Dragon/DE Dragon, they are in plastic, good size and can easely be modified.

 

Or...you could simply convert a Drake...

[Excessus]

Just remember that the wings count for vector strikes as well, so don't model it too much to your disadvantage...  ;)

[Brother Ambroz]

Slayer not everyone has your conversion skillz man.

[chillin]

|if you're not keen on the drake flyer model how about using a hell talon model from Forge World and using it as a counts as?

I hate the drake model and it being , what, about $75, makes me hate it more. I was thinking about a old chaos dragon model for a baledrake (firebreather + can attack things in the air). Or a HEAVILY converted SM or IG flyer into a daemonforge, daemonicly possessed flyer.

Realy?...

You hate the drake, makes no apparent attempts to convert it to your likings, but you want to convert those OLd ugly arse Dragons models, to have something no better, heavy, un-easy to store/transport and to put on the table?...

A converted SM flyer, yeah might work, but its also 50$ for the model, and not counting the bits...

A old dragon model?, why not one of the new Zombie Dragon/HE Dragon/DE Dragon, they are in plastic, good size and can easely be modified.

Or...you could simply convert a Drake...

Actually the zombie dragon was what I was thinking after I did some research and saw a pic of one , and found that they hadnt made a chaos dragon in years and years and it was metal. I really leaning more toward a flyer with daemon and/or dragon kitbash w lotsa GS. Why not convert a drake ? Because, as I already said I dont like the model as a whole and I dont see it as a base for a conversion. 2 Questions I have is why do you care what I make a drake out of ?? And where did you learn to talk to people ?

Ghost, I have been doing this well over a decade and have plenty of conversion skillz, thats why I know I can make a model that is more to MY liking then the drake model.

[Aidoneus]

If it helps to inspire you at all, you can take a look at my Terrogeist/Heldrake kitbash here and here (and in the rest of that thread).

[the jeske]

 

un-easy to store/transport and to put on the table?...

 

and a hell drake is ?

[Excessus]

Haha, +1 to jeske. The heldrake is horrible to transport...takes up sooo much space!

[derpasaurus]

Haha, +1 to jeske. The heldrake is horrible to transport...takes up sooo much space!

I have a Battlefoam 720 or whatever the size is... holds a vertical foot worth of foam. If i were to put my forgefiend/heldrake in that bag, it would take 1/4 of my space for 2 models. I just have a spare box with a handle and hinged lid I keep them in. I have dubbed it "The Monster Box."

[chillin]

If it helps to inspire you at all, you can take a look at my Terrogeist/Heldrake kitbash here and here (and in the rest of that thread).

Yes I like those wings MUCH better the the fanning-triangles on the heldrake. Is that a hapless s/m dangleing from its grasp ...? I love it, well done. I like using the rino as a base too. I am so ripping you off , not zackly, but definately along those lines. I gave away an old metal SM dread to a SW's buddy of mine, that would hav been awesome to use as base. oh well, I'll find an old dread or tank or something on the cheap.

[Dar'kir]

IMO with alittle bit of work, the Heldrake could look rather nice. I have seen afew conversions using some other ranges wings and bits that look good, and probably cost less then trying to bash two monster size kits together.

[*Furyou Miko]

CSMs seem to be able to win the ground war fairly handily. They are very points efficient (we are talking competative), tough, can shoot well and can CC very well. There are not too many armies that can really go toe to toe with CSMs in a pure ground war.

We however have very little vs an airforce. If you really feel the need to protect yourself the single best way is to ally with Necron and take two min squads of warriors and hop them in a Nightsythe. This adds two good scoring units that you can throw down somewhere near the end of the game and adds two flyers that have very good weapons for dealing with other flyers. Both units come at around a 330ish point cost total. This does not include the HQ you must take with them as well.

I do not think we are capable of handling a pure airforce army on our own, but that is expected in the world of allies

Necrons are Distrusted Allies, so they aren't Scoring. Much better to go with Guard.

The Helldrake's "fanning triangles" are obviously based off the Aquila's wings. Since the Aquila is awesome, you may now change your opinion. :p

[Sokhar]

"Necrons are Distrusted Allies, so they aren't Scoring. Much better to go with Guard."

 

Rulebook. Necrons are Allies of Convenience to Chaos Space Marines, hence scoring. Exactly like Guard are.

[*Furyou Miko]

Huh. I misread the chart. Suddenly my Iron Men army list looks a lot nastier.

[Urauloth]

"Necrons are Distrusted Allies, so they aren't Scoring. Much better to go with Guard."

 

Rulebook. Necrons are Allies of Convenience to Chaos Space Marines, hence scoring. Exactly like Guard are.

Allies of convenience are treated as enemy units (p.112) so I fail to see how they can possibly be scoring? If anything they should act as denial units for your main detatchment, unless I'm missing something.

[*Furyou Miko]

It specifically says that Distrusted Allies "Are treated as allies of convenience n every way, except that they are not scoring and cannot deny objectives." Which implies that AoC are scoring.

[Nehekhare]

there is a rules conundrum right there.

 

as troops, they would be scoring units, but as enemy units, they would simultaneously deny that same objective they hold.

 

also, as enemy units, models from your primary detachment have to pile in on them and stay in CC when there are no other player's models left in a melee.

[Excessus]

Err, "units in your army treat Allies of convenience as enemy units...", it's not that they are generally enemy units, it's just that the "units in your army"(not players, not objectives) treat them as enemies for several rules. I don't see how they would not be scoring...

[Nehekhare]

Err, "units in your army treat Allies of convenience as enemy units...", it's not that they are generally enemy units, it's just that the "units in your army"(not players, not objectives) treat them as enemies for several rules. I don't see how they would not be scoring...

so they are treated as enemy (scoring) units denying the objective your primary troops try to hold ;)

the issue here is that they didn't specify which rules exactly they are treated as enemies for, so it applies to all rules, i.e. pile-in moves, etc.

[happybounce]

@jansuza: what kind of list do you usually run, and what's your playstyle?  It's hard to give blanket advice on this stuff.

 

I run a really aggressive and fast Khorne close combat army, and I've found that often by the time flyers show up I'm already locked in combat.  Obviously if you are a shooty army you're going to have more issues with this, and your Obliterators/Defense Line suggest this.

 

I am able to ignore most flyers--no termies, expensive vehicles, or stand-alone characters means lascannons aren't that scary--but that's not a reality for many players.  Doesn't mean you have to switch to allied rules or run a Helldrake, however.

 

Here are some options.

 

1) Daemon princes with wings.  Being able to fly over an enemy flyer and get d3+1 strength 6 attacks isn't the greatest in the world, but it's an option other than helldrake or allies.  However the downside is that a flying daemon prince will get shot to hell by a list with lots of flyers without doing much damage.  So you could always invest in . . .

 

2) Daemon prince of Tzeech with Psyker levels.  Two of the three Tzeech powers are good against vehicles, and Boon is hilarious enough that someone should always take it.  If you play aggressive, he can move with the rest of the army; if you play defensive, he can hang behind terrain until he needs to show up.  Of course, the best option:

 

3) Squeeze in a squad of Havocs.  Consider this: a squad of 5 havocs with two skyfire missiles and two auto cannons comes out to 145 points.  Having the Champion fire the quad-gun gives you four twin-linked str 7 shots, two str 7 shots, and four snap-fire str 7 shots.  If you aren't shooting at fliers, well then this squad can wreck a transport in a hurry.  And if you start to lose guys here and there, the snap-firing autocannon guys can fire more shots in a pinch.  Of course you could always beef up the squad, but I don't know how many points you have.

 

Consider this as well: a Warpsmith has BS 5, which is pretty redundant with the twin-linked quad gun but lets you count on four hits most of the time--pretty important when shooting at AV 12.  A unit of Havocs makes a good body guard for him, and if you play defensively it lets your warlord chill in the back (if he is in fact your lord--I usually only run one character).

 

Overall I think the Havocs in the defense line is the best bet.  They are less splashy than two obliterators, but I think they are a lot more reliable.  And the nice part is that you aren't even adjusting that much to deal with just fliers, as it's only those 20 points that are totally devoted to dealing with them.  Like I said, if you pad the unit out I think they could do some real damage against a flyer-heavy army.  Good luck man!

[Nehekhare]

skyfire missles are just not cost-effective. 25 points for one S7 shot is not good, and without intercept, those 5 MEQ min squads are easily wiped off the board by any flyer before they can fire at it. flying MCs don't do much either and should not be hunting vehicles in the open, waiting to get grounded. warpsmith on an icarus is better, but mostly it's flyers against flyers or ignore.

[minigun762]

skyfire missles are just not cost-effective. 25 points for one S7 shot is not good, and without intercept, those 5 MEQ min squads are easily wiped off the board by any flyer before they can fire at it. flying MCs don't do much either and should not be hunting vehicles in the open, waiting to get grounded. warpsmith on an icarus is better, but mostly it's flyers against flyers or ignore.

 

If you decide to go with flakk missiles, I would seriously consider adding additional bodies to help protect your expensive investment. Yes it adds to the point cost but you need to keep those missiles alive as long as possible to maximize their effectiveness.

[Lieutenant Steel]

If you decide to go with flakk missiles, I would seriously consider adding additional bodies to help protect your expensive investment. Yes it adds to the point cost but you need to keep those missiles alive as long as possible to maximize their effectiveness.

 

That sounds like exact opposite of effectiveness; if you were being effective you would realise you are spending money to make an average unit become an expensive average unit; it doesn't become a good unit. If you just bought more autocannons instead of Flakk missiles you wouldn't have to buy extra squad members, so you'd be saving money twice (one on the weapon cost and again on the squad member you didn't have to take).

[the jeske]

 

That sounds like exact opposite of effectiveness;

1 not necron or vendettas

2 effective anti air

 

pick one

 

flakks are ok If your enviroment is full of dual FoC nids or 5 MC demon lists . helps with grounding . at all other time , you ignore the other flyers . no divination , no good twin linked weapons , means it is easier then trying to combat them and do good against lists that dont run or run few flyers.

[minigun762]

 

 

If you decide to go with flakk missiles, I would seriously consider adding additional bodies to help protect your expensive investment. Yes it adds to the point cost but you need to keep those missiles alive as long as possible to maximize their effectiveness.

That sounds like exact opposite of effectiveness; if you were being effective you would realise you are spending money to make an average unit become an expensive average unit; it doesn't become a good unit. If you just bought more autocannons instead of Flakk missiles you wouldn't have to buy extra squad members, so you'd be saving money twice (one on the weapon cost and again on the squad member you didn't have to take).

I disagree. It's no different from spending extra points to get your HQ an inv save to protect them.

It's an investment.

5 havocs with flakk run 175 points. Adding 2 bodies increases squad cost by 15% for a 40% increase in durability.

I'm not arguing for or against flakk havocs, just pointing out what I'd do if I took them.

[Slayer le Boucher]

 

 

un-easy to store/transport and to put on the table?...

 

and a hell drake is ?

If you do it right, yes, it doesn't take more place then a rhino.

 

magnetize Head, screw/bolt wings, and here you go.

 

 

 

Actually the zombie dragon was what I was thinking after I did some

research and saw a pic of one , and found that they hadnt made a chaos

dragon in years and years and it was metal. I really leaning more toward

a flyer with daemon and/or dragon kitbash w lotsa GS. Why not convert a

drake ? Because, as I already said I dont like the model as a whole and

I dont see it as a base for a conversion. 2 Questions I have is why do

you care what I make a drake out of ?? And where did you learn to talk

to people ?

i'm only caring, because i like to help fellow Hobbyists, and that you made a topic to ask advices.

 

And whats the matter with my speaking(writing)?, you might point it to me, because English is not my first language and i learned it on my own.