Do you think A-D-B got Russ' character right?

[Night Runner]

I am currently in the middleof A-D-B's Betrayer and I am enjoying it immensely. The is a part where Russ and Angron come to blows and is called The Night of the Wolf.

 

Now, before I say what is on my mind I would like to state for the record that I do not think that A-D-B hates Space Wolves or that he is biased against them. I also do not mind Space Wolves loosing or Russ being defeated. These things do not phase me in the slightest. I do not want this tread to devolve into something like that.

 

Now I am not a literary critic and this is not a literary critique. I am just a 20 year plus Space Wolf Fan and I believe that I have a feel and affinity towards my beloved Chapter and I do not feel A-D-B's take on Russ is completely spot on.

 

I will explain. First A-D-B takes off where Abnett began, i.e. depicting the 6th as executioners. This I don't mind at all, but I can't really see the Wolves or Russ parading this as their birth right or actually seeing themselves in this role. From Prospero Burns I got the feel it was a role they were called upon to do from time to time due to the fact that they tend to get the jobs no one else wanted to do. They have the cultural mind-set for such work so to speak.

 

So Russ apparently heard about the senseless savagery of the World Eaters, and takes it upon himself to put an end to it. This again does not seem like Russ to me? All the primarchs are forces of nature in their own way, but I always saw Russ as an embodiment of the spirit of nature as well. Wild and free – the dynamism of a life free from civilisation’s shackles – as A-D-B aptly puts it. I don’t think he would give a twat about how Angron conducts war unless it messed up his own military theatre. Neither the Emperor nor Horus cared much with how Angron did things – then why on earth would Leman Russ? Having said that, A-D-B does give an excellent description of Russ which I encourage you all to read.

 

On the same note I do not think Russ would care much if the World Eaters had their nails removed or not. Russ certainly would not allow anyone to interfere with the way he runs his legion, so and do not think he would interfere in the way his brothers run theirs.

 

There is also another passage during this scene where Russ quotes scripture from nonetheless than a book written by Lorgar! I found this to be completely out of tone with Russ’ character. I do not think Russ would quote Scripture from any source. He does have the intelligence of a primarch but he is a barbarian first and foremost and likes to be seen that way. I have no doubt that he might have read Lorgars work and that of many other 30K luminaries but I don’t think he would show it – it is part of his animalistic cunningness I think.

 

Russ goes on to talk about stuff like ‘ideals’, ‘offering of freedom’, ‘treachery’, besides other stuff that make him sound like Dorn or Sanguinius. It also makes him look more or less self-righteous in a very moral way which I don’t think is the case. Russ is a creature of nature brought up by savage wolves. I would think the concept of right and wrong do not hold very strongly with him, nor does he care much for such concepts. Loyalty towards pack (as in towards legion and sire and friends) would be more fitting as a moral foundation for Leman Russ in my humble opinion.

 

Afterwards the dialogue ends; Russ and Angron, Space Wolves and World Eaters come to blows and who won is not certain. This I like. To be honest I think A-D-B is spot on when he pits these two primarchs against each other. I always thought Russ and Angron would not get along, but not because of the reasons I have read in the novel Betrayer. Russ is a wolf-reared barbarian who embraces his wild and fierce nature. He is given to bouts of rage and hate as much as he enjoys mirth and laughter all in abundance. Angron is always angry and sullen and on the point of violence. Personally I would think Russ would find Angron intolerable company, but he would not give a spit about why, how, to who and how bad Angron does things with his legion. If pitted on the same battlefield I definitely would see them clashing since the way they make war is so different that one would interfere with the other and Russ being headstrong would definitely come to blows with Angron. But Russ actively seeking Angron out? I honestly do not think so.

 

Well that is my point of view and personal opinion. Some of you might not agree and that is fine. I do not purport to be the highest authority on Russ and the Space Wolves, but this is how I see things.

 

Other than that the book is great and you get a very personal and intimate view of Angron and Lorgar. Primarch time (as I like to call it) is something I eagerly search for when reading Horus Heresy books. Unfortunately, this is something we Space Wolf fans do not get with Prospero Burns.

 

Well what do Wolf brothers think?

 

NR

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

well, I havent read the book yet (waiting for paperback), but I want to disagree with one part of your post: Russ was not a barbarian first and foremost. Russ was (or maybe is) a genetically created killing machine. he is not any single type of description, he is what the Emperor created him to be.

 

Also, in Prospero Burns, Valdor points out that Russ is still playing the "barbarian king" role and Russ laughs it off. (page 326) and within 3 seconds of this happening, Russ then goes on to mock Hawser's manners.

 

WLK

[Ezeriel]

I believe Russ to deeper character then he's a "savage barbarian who quickly changes between rage and laughter" and such. He does the barbarian savage act to intimidate and put people on the wrong foot when dealing with him.

 

Also the current codex has a story about SW's nearly going to war with the Flesh Tearers cus they savagely killed Imperial citizens they suspected of being tainted. So I can see Russ going after Angron for excessive, pointless savagery.

[MaveriK]

Any work of fiction is just that. Something to take in and enjoy. As a wolf player and collector since late rogue trader days, and the wolves being my only army. I think in general, we should just be grateful for what we are given. The stories about our wolves add depth and character. How the writers portray them and how we interpret them shouldn't be taken for granted. I like how we are flawed, it shows the legion/chapter being human. I like how we are noble and savage. There is a duality in everything and two sides to every story. We don't/won't really know how Russ thinks or operates. It's just something we as readers will always assume. And from there, the writers who do their thing have done their jobs! they make us think.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

dunno what the problem is guys. Russ confronting Angorn about his behaviour is consistant with the ideals of the SW 10000 years later. Russ may have "grown up" on a barbaric world but he is still a primarch and he spent lots of time with his father. Angorns Legion committed genocide as a rule and i personaly am glad that it was Russ who confronted him and tried to teach him a lesson. As Logar pointed out Angorn was to far gone to even understand what had happened on the night of the wolf. ADB's take on Russ added to the reasons i chose to play SW and I am now motivated more than ever to fight Kahrn and his beserkers.

 

 

[Russ Brother 92]

I've only read the bits that have been put up in the Horus Heresy thread and so far it's shown itself to be a very very good book, it's got depth and detail that often gets left out in sagas the life of the HH series.

 

I feel that the way Russ, Angron and Lorgar have been portrayed to suit their character, it's given the depth and semi-humanity to the WE that they've always been lacking, and imo. they've shown just how far Russ would go to defend what he feels is right, not necessarily humanty or even life (he's not Dorn or Sanguinius ya know) if he feels you've betrayed something that's of import. to him then he'll fight for it's survival...

[the jeske]

 

 

Well I like the way one can see the WE going down and less and less human with more of their members becoming lobotomised/no longer terran . I mean almost all the legions had those problems with terran vs primarch home world marines , but for WE the changes must have been huge . for Angron killing is both the goal and the way to live . For Russ killing is the way to live , but not his goal . That is why he seems more sane [well in primarch/sm terms , from a sm points of view and ultramarine is a inhumanly brutal butcher] and what he does and what his legion does seem to be more noble . And as the quoting of lorgar goes . well primarchs may have not liked each other [some even hated each other] , but they werent stupid . that is why G-man was stealing everything his brothers ever wrote or said . Besides the whole barbarian king thing is a smoke screen , it is a smoke screen for even SW today . It makes it easier for them to interect with other imperials .

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Only time I am going to say this. Any more shenanigans like what just went down and folks will see the air lock. You don't like an author that is fine, you can even say so. But we don't tolerate flaming or trolling of any of the members here. You don't like that -- the door out is that way.

[eyeslikethunder]

As a old school space wolf I like the return to noble savage archetype and like ADB depiction of the SW's

 

but the quoting scripture is very out of character

[Castellan Michael]

I believe Russ to deeper character then he's a "savage barbarian who quickly changes between rage and laughter" and such. He does the barbarian savage act to intimidate and put people on the wrong foot when dealing with him.

 

Also the current codex has a story about SW's nearly going to war with the Flesh Tearers cus they savagely killed Imperial citizens they suspected of being tainted. So I can see Russ going after Angron for excessive, pointless savagery.

 

I have read the book, and my thoughts regarding Russ's reason for engaging the World Eaters exactly a part of the VI. Standing up for humanity protecting them from any evil including Imperial actions. I am a 20 plus year SW player, I think the dichotomy of the Vlka Fenryka is what makes them fun. A barbaric space viking, that is not willing to look the other way when an injustice is being done. But Russ quoting Logar? Not a chance!

[SamaNagol]

Read the whole book. Because they revisit it another 2 times.

 

Russ was sent by the Emperor to bring the World Eaters back to Terra and have the Butchers Nails removed. Not execute Angron.

 

You have to remember when you read Angron's account he has a very biased and slanted view of how things went. This is made very clear by Lorgar later on in the book.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I loved the depiction of Russ. It showed the tactician and thinker in him when not wearing the barbarian facade.

[Wispy]

It was impossible for him to get it wrong. It might not have not lined up with your assumptions, but Leman Russ' personal characteristics were a blank slate before A-D-B got there. Now he isn't.

 

It was literally the first time Russ has was narratively depicted first hand.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

Maby I am misunderstanding but the 1000 sons & especialy Prospero Burns give Leman Russ a lot of depth too. ADB's description of Russ added more. I personaly hope they let ADB write another book about SW and Russ. Hell I even find Logar to be one of the coolest characters in the whole Heresy series. Betrayal is simply just such a good book I have become a real fanboy ....... LOL

[Týr]

I really liked the Night of Wolves and ADB's take on Russ.

The way I see it Russ was never a savage or barbarian. He was a

Primarch first of all. The way the spoke and dressed was just the way he was brought up.Every legion take things from their homeworld, both to honour it and remember where they come from. Some legions homeworld traits just shine through more brighter than others. Vlka Fenryka and Night Lords are good examples. The Ultramarines have their own traditions from Macragge, but Macragge isn't as crazy as Fenris, so it's more subtle how their homeworld have shaped them.

The wolves themselves are not barbarians either. They are Astartes before all else.

 

I think ADB added great debth to Russ and it was good read to see World Eaters vs Wolves.

 

 

[DarthMarko]

I will be the first and I will say I dislike it and I wont join the ADB fanwagon...

Here are some reasons :

- people totaly misinterpret the chapter and are completely ignoring the point of the story (Angron whooped his arse,ha,ha,ha,ha and so on) > check other 40k forums

- I dont like that author is trying to repair or balance SW fluff by his own accord cause IMHO this puts much more silly debates and further complicates things

- majority of people who read 40k are drooling on this irrelevant piece of fluff, which is made only to build WE identety over SW

- I corrected people for about 50 times, and still even totaly neutral fans are saying "No way that mere astartes could take down Angron with just bolters" Corax had only pimples from a lascannon (adb- Aurelian),and I won't even start with Angron + in that accord Angron spared Russ and tutor him btw (yes - you heard it)

- I'm sorry but vast majority of 40k co will remember this like Angron did - the wrong way

My opinion is that this book could go without SW (like "fear to tread" could)

I'm not trying to offend nobody but this is my and some of my friends POV

 

Now I will quote my friend who doesn't want to get on somebodies bad side :

Angron can overpower a titan... But it is ok because he has broken mind.

He gets his weapon destroyed by Leman Russ, so he just disarms and out brawls the "Great brawling warrior"... But it ok because he has a broken mind.

He can get burried alive and just dig his way through 400 meters of earth (200 down and 200 back up) using axes... But it is ok because he has a broken mind.

The World Eaters charge a heavy defended line designed to destroy them and win... But its ok because they have broken minds. Literally that is the reason the book gives for them winning that fight. "We are so broken that we get mad and crazy and that is the only way to defeat an enemy so disciplined. Who just broke our charge a second ago and was slaughtering us. But now we has the nails so we winses".

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

@darth marko: this is about the best contra post I have read. How your friend puts it does show the munchkin vibe laid down for Angorn & the World Eaters. But alas these are stories of myth & legend & there is nothing more fun than playing against World Eaters/ Kohrn freaks, breaking them on the battlefield and asking them/the player about Kahrns opinion about Space Wolves again in a cheesy russian accent. Then you can call them Word Eaters.

[Max_Dammit]

Didn't almost every primarch on the emperors side get his arse handed to him in some conflict by a traitor or soon to be traitor primarch. Russ even got beaten by a "loyal" (i put this in " as the storys of the HH dont ge well for him) primarch.

 

I never was in doubt that Angron was stronger than Russ, Russ does fun stuff in his free time. Angrons idea on fun is killing stuff making him more efective in that take.

[Týr]

I will be the first and I will say I dislike it and I wont join the ADB fanwagon...

Here are some reasons :

- people totaly misinterpret the chapter and are completely ignoring the point of the story (Angron whooped his arse,ha,ha,ha,ha and so on) > check other 40k forums

- I dont like that author is trying to repair or balance SW fluff by his own accord cause IMHO this puts much more silly debates and further complicates things

- majority of people who read 40k are drooling on this irrelevant piece of fluff, which is made only to build WE identety over SW

- I corrected people for about 50 times, and still even totaly neutral fans are saying "No way that mere astartes could take down Angron with just bolters" Corax had only pimples from a lascannon (adb- Aurelian),and I won't even start with Angron + in that accord Angron sparred Russ and tutor him btw (yes - you heard it)

- I'm sorry but vast majority of 40k co will remember this like Angron did - the wrong way

My opinion is that this book could go without SW (like "fear to tread" could)

I'm not trying to offend nobody but this is my and some of my friends POV

 

Now I will quote my friend who doesn't want to get on somebodies bad side :

Angron can overpower a titan... But it is ok because he has broken mind.

He gets his weapon destroyed by Leman Russ, so he just disarms and out brawls the "Great brawling warrior"... But it ok because he has a broken mind.

He can get burried alive and just dig his way through 400 meters of earth (200 down and 200 back up) using axes... But it is ok because he has a broken mind.

The World Eaters charge a heavy defended line designed to destroy them and win... But its ok because they have broken minds. Literally that is the reason the book gives for them winning that fight. "We are so broken that we get mad and crazy and that is the only way to defeat an enemy so disciplined. Who just broke our charge a second ago and was slaughtering us. But now we has the nails so we winses".

 

Angron can overpower a titan... But it is ok because he's Primarch.

He gets his weapon destroyed by Leman Russ, so he just disarms and out brawls the "Great brawling warrior"... But it ok because he's a freaking psychopath and Russ didn't intend to win this. Only drag Angron away from his sons.

He can get burried alive and just dig his way through 400 meters of earth (200 down and 200 back up) using axes... But it is ok because he's Primarch.

The World Eaters charge a heavy defended line designed to destroy them and win... But its ok because they had large nummerical superiority and the ultramarines were in shock over the surprise attack.

 

You seem to miss the point about the nails. It's not something that makes them better. It's something that makes them worse. It makes them fight as individuals. They don't fight better with the nails active, but more furious and savagely. They expose themselves more and have a hard time to stop again.

The nails dosen't make them swing an axe better. The fact that they are World Eaters is why they swing an axe better than most.

This was what the entire section about Russ was to illustrate. They could have been so much and so noble, if they had just vented Angron into space when they found him. Instead they choose to follow him and break themselves upon the nails like he had been himself.

[DarthMarko]

- ^ the nails are what makes them swing an axe better and frankly that's it (pure aggresion,adrenaline + some psy resistance)

- they are completely tacticaly outmaneuvered, fight one vs one but they manage to score more kills

- See my point?

- also I don't know if author hates SW (I don't give a crap about that), but Russ quoting scripture a book written by Lorgar? i mean Russ ?

- frankly this book won't go into my shelf,cause I think IMHO it's bad and can't be compared with other HH heavyweights (PB,aTS,HR,FG,GB)

[Týr]

- ^ the nails are what makes them swing an axe better and frankly that's it (pure aggresion,adrenaline + some psy resistance)

- they are completely tacticaly outmaneuvered, fight one vs one but they manage to score more kills

- See my point?

- also I don't know if author hates SW (I don't give a crap about that), but Russ quoting scripture a book written by Lorgar? i mean Russ ?

- frankly this book won't go into my shelf,cause I think IMHO it's bad and can't be compared with other HH heavyweights (PB,aTS,HR,FG,GB)

 

I don't know how well you red the book.

The idea through it is clearly that the nails are a huge disadvantage. The nails stimlate their brains rewarding rage and anger that comes through fighting enemies. This just makes them more filled with rage.

Never has rage made someone a better warrior or made him better at fighting. That comes from training, training, training and a lot of experience. And that's why the world eaters are better at swinging axes. Angron has led them into countless conflicts and wars that never need to happen, and for this they have required huge amounts of training to survive this. Where other Legions focused on what to do after the crusade, and their warriors learning new crafts the world eaters only learnt war and combat.

Then they were so unfortunate that they smashed the nails into their brains making them unstable in combat.

It's a naive point of view that rage makes you a better fighter. It dosen't.

 

They might have been tactically outmaneuvered but still had nummerical superiority and the math kicks in. As the ultramarines died they died but when a world eater died reinforcements were streaming to the battle.

 

ADB dosen't hate any legions. In fact he likes all. It's something he have stated himself. If you read the afterword it's also very clearly that he hasen't set out to make anyone look worse than other. All legions are equally strong.

That's the horror of Astartes warfare. They all end up dead because they balance each other out.

I think ADB really hit the Vlka Fenryka spot on. Again it's naive to think Russ is mindless in any way or a barbarian. He's a primarch. He coud kick Einstein and Newton in physics from the moment he learned to walk and talk.

No doubt Russ would read everything his brothers said and wrote, to get as much information as possible, and therfore he would be very familiar with the works of Lorgar.

The one thing that's truly characterizing about the Vlka Fenryka is they are very deep and mysterious. They hide a lot of their true selves to prevent it being made into a weapon against them.

[DarthMarko]

^ Khm - death company ??? I' ve read the book,did you ? Adrenalin rush and pure rage combined with martial prowess is what makes WE a WE...Also Russ coud kick Einstein and Newton in physics from the moment he learned to walk and talk? Russ ? Leman Russ ? Burn the libraries guy !? He was tactical genius, but he lived on a medieval death world, and didn't see the power fist until Empy punched him.... Vlka Fenryka are deep and mysterious? Legion who likes to show their strengths into the face of the enemy, howling?

I'm sorry how long are you VF fan - no offense?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

^ Khm - death company ??? I' ve read the book,did you ? Adrenalin rush and pure rage combined with martial prowess is what makes WE a WE...Also Russ coud kick Einstein and Newton in physics from the moment he learned to walk and talk? Russ ? Leman Russ ? Burn the libraries guy !? He was tactical genius, but he lived on a medieval death world, and didn't see the power fist until Empy punched him.... Vlka Fenryka are deep and mysterious? Legion who likes to show their strengths into the face of the enemy, howling?

I'm sorry how long are you VF fan - no offense?

 

that has to be the silliest post I have seen on B&C in a long while, and probably the reason why people see the Wolves as mindless Viking sterotypes.

 

yes, Russ could outsmart the smartest humans without trying. Why? because he was genetically engineered to one of 20 beings in the galaxy that were the best that humanity had to offer. they would be smarter, stronger, tougher, and outright better than us in every way shape and form. Russ, once contact with the Imperium was made, swallowed the knowledge of the Imperium like we breath air. So while he didnt leave behind the traditions and trappings of his "home planet", he certainly enhaunced his knowledge with te best humanity had to offer.

the libraries he wanted burned on Shrike were Xenos, and thus to him inferior to humanity, and on Prospero were the product of the work of traitors. Neither were "good enough" to bring to the Imperium of Man, which was at the zenith of its place in the galaxy's heirachy of power.

Deep and mysterious, yes. They showed their enemies the howls of Wolves, the flash of lightning, and the rumble of the earth. SO the enemy was terrified when they arrived. When the arrived, they silently descended upon their prey and killed them in as efficient a manner as possible. The Wolf Scouts would destroy the supply lines and reserves while everybody was focused on the Wolves. They are not the barbarians of D&D, but rather the fighter that does his job without mercy. If that meant dropping a colony on them, then so be it.

(Prospero was an exception to this, as Russ wanted Magnus to come along peacefully)

 

so the real question is, how long have YOU been a fan of the Wolves? Because when the Wolvs are done competently, we are efficient warriors of the Emperor. When done stupidly (Battle of the Abyss), we are saturday morning cartoonish versions of Vikings.

 

WLK

[Týr]

^ Khm - death company ??? I' ve read the book,did you ? Adrenalin rush and pure rage combined with martial prowess is what makes WE a WE...Also Russ coud kick Einstein and Newton in physics from the moment he learned to walk and talk? Russ ? Leman Russ ? Burn the libraries guy !? He was tactical genius, but he lived on a medieval death world, and didn't see the power fist until Empy punched him.... Vlka Fenryka are deep and mysterious? Legion who likes to show their strengths into the face of the enemy, howling?

I'm sorry how long are you VF fan - no offense?

 

that has to be the silliest post I have seen on B&C in a long while, and probably the reason why people see the Wolves as mindless Viking sterotypes.

 

yes, Russ could outsmart the smartest humans without trying. Why? because he was genetically engineered to one of 20 beings in the galaxy that were the best that humanity had to offer. they would be smarter, stronger, tougher, and outright better than us in every way shape and form. Russ, once contact with the Imperium was made, swallowed the knowledge of the Imperium like we breath air. So while he didnt leave behind the traditions and trappings of his "home planet", he certainly enhaunced his knowledge with te best humanity had to offer.

the libraries he wanted burned on Shrike were Xenos, and thus to him inferior to humanity, and on Prospero were the product of the work of traitors. Neither were "good enough" to bring to the Imperium of Man, which was at the zenith of its place in the galaxy's heirachy of power.

Deep and mysterious, yes. They showed their enemies the howls of Wolves, the flash of lightning, and the rumble of the earth. SO the enemy was terrified when they arrived. When the arrived, they silently descended upon their prey and killed them in as efficient a manner as possible. The Wolf Scouts would destroy the supply lines and reserves while everybody was focused on the Wolves. They are not the barbarians of D&D, but rather the fighter that does his job without mercy. If that meant dropping a colony on them, then so be it.

(Prospero was an exception to this, as Russ wanted Magnus to come along peacefully)

 

so the real question is, how long have YOU been a fan of the Wolves? Because when the Wolvs are done competently, we are efficient warriors of the Emperor. When done stupidly (Battle of the Abyss), we are saturday morning cartoonish versions of Vikings.

 

WLK

 

So well spoken Brother!

You well formulated rational post just made my day. Thank you.

 

@DarthMarko

 

As Wolf Lord Kieran just posted, Russ is a primarch. He is ment to be a genius without compare. That he happens to dress in fur and leather is just because he landed on Fenris. All Legions take a lot from their homeworld and it helps to shape them. But they are all Astartes.

They are ment to be able to be and do anything. That's the whole point of them. They have to be as skilled swordsmen as marskmen. As great pilots as strategist. That also goes for the wolves. They never have been and will never be space-vikings. They are adeptus astartes and then shaped by their homeworld and their primarch to be the Wolves of Fenris.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

look brothers we the painters and players of the Space Wolves just have to go out there kick arse and take names. I wonder how many of you can get the World Eaters to "Eat their Words". now its 10000 years after the heresy we are still a legion & the World Eaters are nothing more than a bunch of warbands that need loads of asprin. their most famous hero has the title betrayer.

In my eyes we are way cooler than they are.