DarthMarko Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 that has to be the silliest post I have seen on B&C in a long while, and probably the reason why people see the Wolves as mindless Viking sterotypes. so the real question is, how long have YOU been a fan of the Wolves? Because when the Wolvs are done competently, we are efficient warriors of the Emperor. When done stupidly (Battle of the Abyss), we are saturday morning cartoonish versions of Vikings. WLK Longer than you I'll bet my hat on that, I witnessed transformation of the VF from the early days (WD) until BL started to mix things up..And since you are insulting in your posts I'm not even gonna dignify myself to a respond... @Tyr my point is this - heresy wolves (TS,PB) aren't portrayed as SW from the begining of their creation and later... So that's why I said all those things... Little off topic - some SW haters even say that they hide their cunning under barbarian facade, but deep down they are barbarian savages.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3287621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 that has to be the silliest post I have seen on B&C in a long while, and probably the reason why people see the Wolves as mindless Viking sterotypes. so the real question is, how long have YOU been a fan of the Wolves? Because when the Wolvs are done competently, we are efficient warriors of the Emperor. When done stupidly (Battle of the Abyss), we are saturday morning cartoonish versions of Vikings. WLK Longer than you I'll bet my hat on that, I witnessed transformation of the VF from the early days (WD) until BL started to mix things up..And since you are insulting in your posts I'm not even gonna dignify myself to a respond... @Tyr my point is this - heresy wolves (TS,PB) aren't portrayed as SW from the begining of their creation and later... So that's why I said all those things... Little off topic - some SW haters even say that they hide their cunning under barbarian facade, but deep down they are barbarian savages.... The point is. Space Wolves are now fleshed more out and we know they call themselves Vlka Fenryka. BL has improved them and reinvented them. Out with old space-vikings (that was some of the worst fluff ever). They are now Vlka Fenryka and you can go about your daily life stil beliving in space-vikings but in the universe that are a thing of the past now. We have moved on through the HH books and in my opinion we have no need to cling to 20+ year old vauge fluff Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3287865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 some SW haters even say that they hide their cunning under barbarian facade, but deep down they are barbarian savages.... How is this an insult. They are barbarian savages, and thats what makes them dangerous, but you can be cunning, savage and have self control, making you lethal Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3287893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 I would like to object against the view that Vlka Fenryka are savages, barbarians and so on. First of all it depends on your point of view. If you consider yourself more civilised than other then barbarians exist in your world. But if you take the stand of modern anthropology (which in many ways hold true), that there are no such thing as "less civilised people" then they of course aren't. The wolves are Astartes. They are humanitys finest warriors and soldiers and that's it. That's what makes them dangerous. The only reason they appear to some as barbarians and savages are because of the culture from their homeworld they have adopted. Inside everyone of them lies the sharpest mind humanity can create. Indeed it is not an insult to call the Vlka fenryka barbarians. It is only the critical person showing his lack of perspective and knowledge through such a statement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3287914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozeryk_Sleipnijr Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 I would like to object against the view that Vlka Fenryka are savages, barbarians and so on. First of all it depends on your point of view. If you consider yourself more civilised than other then barbarians exist in your world. But if you take the stand of modern anthropology (which in many ways hold true), that there are no such thing as "less civilised people" then they of course aren't. The wolves are Astartes. They are humanitys finest warriors and soldiers and that's it. That's what makes them dangerous. The only reason they appear to some as barbarians and savages are because of the culture from their homeworld they have adopted. Inside everyone of them lies the sharpest mind humanity can create. Indeed it is not an insult to call the Vlka fenryka barbarians. It is only the critical person showing his lack of perspective and knowledge through such a statement. This is where it really gets interesting. Thru their culture (and knowlege gained there of) the Space Wolves knew one thing that the other Legions (thus far) did not know about. The Malificarum. Because they knew about it they could ward themselves from it. In game terms they have some of the best psychic defense in the game. If you take a good look at the Mythic Nordic cosmonology & compare it to what science has discovered about the world today you will be amazed that thier ideas about reality werent that far off. 30 000 years into the future these people of Fenris had gotten themselves a solid view of reality based upon the truths they encountered on Fenris. Enough of a Truth to guard them from the corruption out of the warp. So in that sense the Space Wolves are way ahead of most the other Adeptus Astartes Then there is this business about:"there are no wolves on Fenris!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3288064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 And I really hate that people are to often mocking SW for their "power of Fenris" cause we know that their relationship with the warp is more balanced than in any other psyker, and this is their saying "We sniff malificarum on 50km away" ... Also there is an article in the WD where Russ sniffed Magnus taint right from the start, warned the Emp but he didn't wanna hear it... Also (about savages or not), thing is in "a thousand sons" book they are portrayed as werewolf bezerkers-barabrians like Max@_dammit said, but in the other books they are portrayed as soldiers taking an objective (like @Tyr said), while in the start of their creations they were jolly good vikings - now insert my confused face...I dont know maybe I love them too much and taking things too seriously or maybe authors need to agree on one portrayal and stick to it..... Me, I prefer them being barbarian savages with a pinch of cunning in them...nothing else... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3288229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greysquigg Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Well I may swell put my two pence in. I do no believe that the portrayal of a character should be the crutch on which you partake in your hobby. Given that Russ is a many facetted individual, you could portray him in an entire plethora of different ways. This is true for even the most basic of scrubs in the legions of the space wolves. They are all older than any of us (give or take ;) ) and given a lifetime of experience and learning you could see how the attitudes and cadences from which the author portrays them would vary from book to book. My favourite depiction of the Vlka was in Prospero Burns. While I do not believe the story was that great, I did get a high off of the way the wolves had this other level to them, even down to the line troops. Do I think A-D-B got Russ's character right? Maybe. You have to remember you're only getting a brief window into what Russ would have been like. This is true of any literature. Allot of it has to be imagined, and this is what usually makes a good writer. Not having all of the facts strait up spoon fed to you is a strong way of writing. GS Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3288543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Well I may swell put my two pence in. I do no believe that the portrayal of a character should be the crutch on which you partake in your hobby. Given that Russ is a many facetted individual, you could portray him in an entire plethora of different ways. This is true for even the most basic of scrubs in the legions of the space wolves. They are all older than any of us (give or take ) and given a lifetime of experience and learning you could see how the attitudes and cadences from which the author portrays them would vary from book to book. My favourite depiction of the Vlka was in Prospero Burns. While I do not believe the story was that great, I did get a high off of the way the wolves had this other level to them, even down to the line troops. Do I think A-D-B got Russ's character right? Maybe. You have to remember you're only getting a brief window into what Russ would have been like. This is true of any literature. Allot of it has to be imagined, and this is what usually makes a good writer. Not having all of the facts strait up spoon fed to you is a strong way of writing. GS Agree, Prospero Burns was for me 100% exellent portrayal (13th warrior style), even though some fans (including me) resented that Abnett didn't write actual "burning" and their version of the attack, but book is a giant piece of fluff taken from a neutral, regular human and should be well recpected.... Also when primarch moves from author to author he loses (or gains) something everytime, which makes a little character mess IMHO... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3288607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 I dont think AD-B added or detracted from Russ's portrayal. there was a time when we fans were glad of anything written about SW, from 3 lines in a WD mag to a book. No matter how bafdy written we did not complain because any fluff was better than no fluff. Now with so much fluff (most conflicting) we seem to have developed into groups that favour certain writers over other, for some ADB is a genious. I like his version of teh SW just as i liked Abnetts before him. hold your breath guys I liked Kings portrayal best. The Space Vikings without the Grimdark nonsence that seems the order of the day. I prefer my SW old school without the Grimdarkness, thankyou. As for Russ's portrayal in betrayer, depending on whose account you take ~(WE drednought) Russ was awasome. If you look at angrons view you can not pay to much attention to him as he is an unreliable narrator of his version of events. I agree Russ quoting Lorgar was a bit much. Especially since he has no time for him in earlier HH book (prospero burns or was it the 100 sons book) The thing with Russ and by that extention SW themselves is they are everything to every one from Beserk warrior, to barbarian to diplomat. They play whichever role is required at that point. Just look at Grimnar, he is teh consumate general, fighter and diplomat when he wants to be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3288736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Runner Posted January 20, 2013 Author Share Posted January 20, 2013 Thanks for all the replies. I enjoyed reading them all. I did not answer any of them simply because I was not interested in arguing but simply seeing which way the opinions bent. Apparently I am definitely in the minority which makes me very proud ! Having said that I still think I am right !, even though there were some very good opinions listed. @ Beef I know from where you are coming from. I have a soft spot for King as well, but overall I prefer Dan Abnett's reinvention of them (except for the executioner theme), even if the Space Wolves are rather sterotypical in his book. But then Chris Wright vindicates us with Battle For the Fang and some excellent character development. Ying & yang I guess. In the end everyting evens out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3289571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Just for the record I too enjoyed mr. King books, no matter how newer fans dislike them (wink,wink,nod,nod), and they are "canon" as much as some BL crappy books (insert my evil grin and my long fang)... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3289614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greysquigg Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I haven't found a writer I cannot enjoy thus far. All of them have been great in my opinion. As long as you take everything to do with this made up universe with a pinch of salt.. I love Bill King's stuff because I laugh at every line involving Sven. Lee Lightner perhaps detracted slightly from the story Bill King had laid down, but then he did have some massive boots to fill. Abnett, Wright and A-D-B have done their own thing which I can only enjoy. Imagine reading the same bit of lore 3 times over! GS Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3289734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryc Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Reading ADB's blog sheds a lot of light on his choices as an author. Personally I really like his style of writing the heresy novels. It fits the 40k universe wonderfully. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3291770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dienekes96 Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Yes. It wasn't a full character portrait, just a glimpse. But an interesting one, that complemented other authors' work. I also loved what he did with the Wolves in The Emperor's Gift. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3292036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Beside Dorn, Russ is my favorite character (really old love), and this wasn't a Russ as I know him (quoting Lorgar's book???golly gee).... IMHO author made him look like a rash, self deluded chump who get's owned while he doesn't prove anything to Angron.... Gloaters did get their part (Angron whooped Russ and coud have killed him, WE are better, yada,yada,yada), while the moral story goes into a toilet... And here is a newsflash - majority of 40k community will remember this as writen above....So I also won't join the ADB fanboish bandwagon... Only hope for me is Russ saying "this isn't over" - and we all know when he said that last time.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3305392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 I'v only heard the audio version, and i dont see anything wrong with the story, Russ came to prove a point and made it ad great expense, his brother was to dumb to get the point. even Logar thinks Russ was the better in the fight. Had Russ wanted to win, He would have killed Angron, and with Angron dead, Russ would have ended the rest of the world eaters with his wolves without any trouble. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3305447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirAstartes Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 This is the way I view the Space Wolves, DA made my day with this scene: "The 6th Legion has a reputation." said Bear."All the Legions Astartes have reputations," replied Hawser."Not like ours," said Ogvai "We are known for our ferocity. We are thought to be feral and undisciplined. Even brother Legions consider us to be wild and bestial.""And you're not ?" asked Hawser."If we need to be," said Ogvai. "but if that was our natural state, we'd all be dead by now."He leaned down towards Hawser like a parent addressing a child."It takes a vast amount of self control to be this dangerous" he said. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3305449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaraion Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 But then Chris Wright vindicates us with Battle For the Fang and some excellent character development. Ying & yang I guess. In the end everyting evens out. ^ This... I loved Battle of the Fang. This to me is the perfect narrative for Vlka Fenryka, where we have many different characterizations of space wolves. From boastful viking, lethal lone wolf, arrogant and blind warrior, to cunning tactician mixed across numerous personas all working together under incredible duress to save our entire chapter. This is the full panorama of Vlka Fenryka and all are correct. Just loved this book Wraight is my genius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3305528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf of Russ Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 I enjoyed Kings books well enough at the time, but it is well known that they weren't originally supposed to be Ragnar Blackmane. That was badly shoehorned in. AD-Bs work on the Wolves has been excellent and I look forward to reading Betrayer. His take on Wolves in The Emperors Gift was top notch! I also enjoyed what McNeill and Abnett did with the wolves in their Heresy books though my standout fav Wolf author is Chris Wright. His Battle of the Fang was perfect in everyway. I look forward to Blood of Asaheim! Gotta say though, I have never though of Wolves as simply crazy beserkers or ignorant Barbarian viking. They are savage and ferocious, sure. But they are also noble and know Right from Wrong, even if that puts them at odds with the Imperium. I love SirAstartes quote. It's perfect for the Wolves. Been playing them since Rogue Trader. Some of the changes annoy me but have recently been kinda retconned to make a bit of sense. The distrust teleportation But use it if things are dire enough. Not fond of flight but Blood Claws (and ICs joining them) can still use Jump Packs. Anyone that says they are afraid of flight seems to forget that they fly in Thunderhawks, through space and plummet from orbit in metal pods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3305581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Remember that Leman Russ has a character that we seldom know of, he is the 40k version of Marcus Aurelius, the great roman emperor and philosopher. His De Natura Belli and Meditations are a tribute to the great emperor of Rome and portray Leman as a very illuminated general and philosopher. While the savagery is inherent in his Wolves so it is a spiritual nature and Leman embodies both. I quite see him quote Lorgar and write books between a battle and another, he is more in line with the barbarian kings of the late 506-516 AD, but it seems that the SW fans tend to overlook this, preferring him as a norse warrior king. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3305638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astral Pathfinder Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 The thing is space wolves are still inspired by viking/celtic/gallic/norse culture and the only way they are no longer seen as barbarians is because archeological emprovements and discoveries showed that gallic people were not the barbarians we used to think. In fact they even used soap and shaved ;) Thing is they paid great honnor to those skilled at war. But they were also capable of the finest arts and that's why you can see many embellished armor in the new boxes and codex. The way we seen celtic and norse culture are in great evolution nowadays. GW/BL keep themselves updated so they take influence on that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3305663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 I think that its about time that someone writes a book about Russ kicking some traitor primarch's arse (read Angron)...Wright I'm looking at you.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3305810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 I think that its about time that someone writes a book about Russ kicking some traitor primarch's arse (read Angron)...Wright I'm looking at you.... Yeah, good luck with that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3305923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 If anybody can defeat anybody (like adb said), why the hell not? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3306846 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Badger Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Unfortunately I think Russ has already had his chance in A Thousand Sons with his very poorly written fight against Magnus. This used to be one of my fav pieces of fluff, the fight that lasted for a day and a night until Russ broke Magnus over his knee after recieving a stab to the heart and Magnus fled. Instead we got a duel that read like some overblown anime scene, sort of ruining a decent book IMO. The final battle in that book was painfully bad to read even though the rest was fantastic until that point. As far as I'm concerned AD-B has hit the wolves character just right in both Betrayer and The Emperors Gift. Remember this book is set before Lorgar's Heresy is widely known (I think) and so why would Russ not quote his brother? They all hold each other in high esteem even if they do not all see eye to eye. I think this is a case of people picking at insignificant details when there are other greater heresies ^^^^ in writing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269251-do-you-think-a-d-b-got-russ-character-right/page/2/#findComment-3306888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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