shin-ryu-ken Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 So I'm assuming everyone has seen the rules by now and there is a bunch of hate for this thing now which I don't want to start all over again. With that in mind, is it really that bad? I have not played with a flyer yet but I roughly understand the rules for them. I believe that they can shoot 4 weapons at a time. So if you were to shoot the heavy bolters, mega bolter and all 6 missiles at a flyer wouldn't that absolutely deck it? Mega bolter thing is Heavy 5 S6, missiles are S6. Any thoughts from someone with more experience at this than me? I'm not sticking my head in the sand but I'm looking for positives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizara Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Its good for taking out other flyers, thats for sure, since its main weapon and missles are str 6, but its not good really at taking out predators or land raiders, which now means, you are spending the points to deal with flyers, light vehicles and troops, but have to put points somewhere else to also have the ability to pop tanks. If the missles were better that would be great. Blood angels storm ravens have missles that are str 8, ap1, so that makes their missles and flyer more beneficial for anti troop and anti tank, plus it carries troops. yes is a bit more expensive, but it does have better missles. If the missles were at least like firing krak, that would make this flyer nasty, as it stands, it is really more of a troop killer, which the raven wing has plenty of already. It does harass other flyers fairly well, but if the rumors are true (since I don't have dark angel codex yet), the devestator squad would be better for anti tank and anti flyers and anti troops, and cheaper. They aren't as mobile, but you can take 5 devs, with 4 missle launchers, and have the skyfire option on them, so they can take out troops with flak missles, tanks with regular old krak, or use skyfire to fire the krak at the flyers. That being the case, i am still taking one. I have a thing for flyers, and this new one is one of the best looking marine ones to me. Being former Airforce, i want to build my own air force in the game hehehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 It also has BS5 versus everything that is not a Flyer, FMC or a Skimmer. And it can force Weapon Destroyed to become Immobilized. Excellent dogfighter IMO, a potentially very good anti-tank with TLLC and excellent anti-infantry with the megabolter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizara Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 so the lascannon, does it replace the heavy bolters or the mega cannon. If it replaces the heavy bolters, then I stand corrected, and it is an excellent all around fighter jet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypher 102 Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I have not played with a flyer yet but I roughly understand the rules for them. I believe that they can shoot 4 weapons at a time. So if you were to shoot the heavy bolters, mega bolter and all 6 missiles at a flyer wouldn't that absolutely deck it? Keep in mind you can only fire two missiles a turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 It has the TLHB and TLLC as default. You can switch the TLLC for a megabolter, to get all the anti-infantry dakka :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shin-ryu-ken Posted January 11, 2013 Author Share Posted January 11, 2013 I thought I had read somewhere that you can fire as many missiles as you like in a turn? Maybe the stormraven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 The cost is the problem, though. For such a pricy flyer (more expensive than Helldrake, Vendetta, Necron croissants and even Stormtalon) you'd expect some more punch Against AV12 than 7 S6 shots. None of them are better than AP4. Actually, our air superiority fighter is great only at mowing down lightly armoured infantry. And I'm not paying that much for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 i like better the TLLC than the megabolter... for dakka you already have the HB and you can use missiles on flyers and light veichles but the TLLC gives you the antitank capability (added to the MM on AB and LS) making it a true versatile fighter...Pity it costs too muche (160/160 points would be better) and against heavy flyers (helldrake, valky/vendetta,SR) it must rely mainly on the TLLC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I'm glad to see a little more constructive criticism here (as I would expect) because that rumor thread over on warseer has gotten really ugly. I have not played with a flyer yet but I roughly understand the rules for them. I believe that they can shoot 4 weapons at a time. So if you were to shoot the heavy bolters, mega bolter and all 6 missiles at a flyer wouldn't that absolutely deck it? Keep in mind you can only fire two missiles a turn. That was an issue I was unaware of sifting through the talk over there. Figured you could unleash all 6 (though fluff-wise it does make sense - it's not like it's able to refit missiles in the middle of a battle). Now that's a problem. At least shooting all 6 you have somewhat of a chance of a glance. I'm still hoping they FAQ it to Str 8 - which makes sense to me given the missile types we already have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Don't have the codex yet (hopefully tomorrow!). But the model looks pretty good. ^_^ Good enough for me to have ordered one regardless of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Don't have the codex yet (hopefully tomorrow!). But the model looks pretty good. Good enough for me to have ordered one regardless of the rules. Ditto! Regardless if it's total suck, I'll still probably run one every time :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmo Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Same here - wingman for my Stormraven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Same here - wingman for my Stormraven I think you are going to need two! One for each side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmo Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Give me a chance - they are only just released ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypher 102 Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I have not played with a flyer yet but I roughly understand the rules for them. I believe that they can shoot 4 weapons at a time. So if you were to shoot the heavy bolters, mega bolter and all 6 missiles at a flyer wouldn't that absolutely deck it? Keep in mind you can only fire two missiles a turn. That was an issue I was unaware of sifting through the talk over there. Figured you could unleash all 6 (though fluff-wise it does make sense - it's not like it's able to refit missiles in the middle of a battle). Now that's a problem. At least shooting all 6 you have somewhat of a chance of a glance. I'm still hoping they FAQ it to Str 8 - which makes sense to me given the missile types we already have. Check out page 81 of the main rulebook under missiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I have not played with a flyer yet but I roughly understand the rules for them. I believe that they can shoot 4 weapons at a time. So if you were to shoot the heavy bolters, mega bolter and all 6 missiles at a flyer wouldn't that absolutely deck it? Keep in mind you can only fire two missiles a turn. That was an issue I was unaware of sifting through the talk over there. Figured you could unleash all 6 (though fluff-wise it does make sense - it's not like it's able to refit missiles in the middle of a battle). Now that's a problem. At least shooting all 6 you have somewhat of a chance of a glance. I'm still hoping they FAQ it to Str 8 - which makes sense to me given the missile types we already have. Check out page 81 of the main rulebook under missiles. I'm afraid to look... EDIT: Ah, regarding the 2 missiles per turn rule, gotcha. I'm sheltered, only playing with a small group of friends - I've faced zero flyers and have fielded only the storm talon in just one game. However, that makes me think even more that the str 6 is a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Honestly, I don't think it's all bad. Most of the negative press came from GW's presentation of it. It was billed as a great interceptor and dog-fighter. And honestly, this is true in a sense. It is actually great against AV10/11 flyers. The number of shots it can put out that can glance/pen those values is pretty good. Like many things, though, it struggles against AV12. Now time will tell if the TL lascannon helps that (certainly gives it a good rate of doing damage on a hit). Unfortunately for the Neph, people pegged on to its latest competitor and ran with it. The Helldrake is an AV12(majority) flyer and it is quite nasty against some of our pricier units (Ravenwing). So mix the general malaise of people finding out that the Neph wasn't a silver-bullet solution with RW-only players dreading mutli-drake lists and you had the catalyst for the internet hyperbole machine to devolve from "the Nephelim is kind of disappointing" all the way to "the DA are ruined forever"-town. But a couple things to consider looking at the reality of the unit itself. It is not an interceptor but rather a multi-role attack flyer. It is a tad expensive but for the price you get something that can reliably down AV11 or less flyers and maul ground targets. It does both of these things rather than specializing in one of them. Personally, I think the premium it pays for that is a tad too high (I would have probably gone ~10 points less, maybe more) but saying that it sucks is overselling the situation (and saying that it ruins the army is hyperbole in the extreme; luckily the latter statement is rarer). The real crime (to me) is that the thing with the Nephelim completely overshadowed the real star flyer. The Dark Talon is a freaking synergy-machine. Combined with Black Knights (who can debuff I) the Rift Cannon is an amazing pre-assault softening agent. Alongside the Deathwing it can use the Rift Cannon to reduce incoming fire from troublesome units that could potentially shred our terminators. On the turn before assault it can drop the Stasis Bomb and prep a unit for eviceration. And its actual offensive capabilities with hurrican bolters make it great at shredding infantry (especially if you have a Dakka Banner nearby). And it comes in at 20 points less than the Nephelim. Sure it wont kill much on its own, but as a force multiplier it is hard to ignore. Having a ranged Blind-thrower is a massive upshot in an army with tons of access to Initiative debuffs. If your units are going in to combat against a big enemy deathstar that isn't nerfed down to WS 1 and I 1/2 then something has gone wrong for you, as a Dark Angels player. And as I have said elsewhere, AV12 flyers are only an issue if they are AV12 all around (so... Stormraven). An AV10 flyer is quite fragile and many flyers tend to have weak rear armour. For an army with so many accuracy buffs (lots of twin-linked and Divination) attached to highly mobile units (Ravenwing) I don't think many of these flyers will be an issue after a turn or two. Just maneuver to the rear arc and open up with some Plasma Talons sporting Prescience. For the record a Black Knight squad vs. AV10 Flyers (including the rear-arc of the Helldrake) can do 2.42HP on average when you pop Prescience on them (and with AP2 they have a good chance of pens being destroyed results). From what I have read, the Librarian in the unit can either have a chance of getting Forewarning (so either upgrade to PML2 or find room for another cheap Libby and hope for the best) OR (and I think this is the better solution) grab a Power Field Generator and grant his unit a 4++. So the Neph can remain a nice, flexible solution to light infantry and AV10/11 flyers while our ground units with maneuverability remain good choices for getting in to position and bringing down AV12 flyers from behind. This basically leaves the Stormraven as something we will likely need to bring an Aegis along for. Basically the Neph is good at performing two roles but not as amazing at the one a lot of people were hoping for. This has somehow turned in to a lot of drama that didn't need to exist. Oh well, most of the rest of the list is stellar, and if people really fear the Helldrake's Baleflamer... Well, ask Chaos Space Marines how they feel about facing down an army of Deathwing (who are largely proof against the feared Baleflamer) armed with Bane weaponry that can drop in front of them on turn 1, then we can talk about who is hard done by. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Edit - the above numbers were for a 6-man Black Knight unit (damn, no edit function yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I am getting the flyer but have not decided on the fighter or Talon yet. Should be gettin the dex and flyer kit at tonights midnight release ad I will decide from there. As of now from what I have red, the Dark Talons lookingmore promising. As fighter, haven't seen rules yet, I think it will be good for ground troop control and not so much against enemy fyers. Until tonight...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Well, ask Chaos Space Marines how they feel about facing down an army of Deathwing (who are largely proof against the feared Baleflamer) armed with Bane weaponry that can drop in front of them on turn 1, then we can talk about who is hard done by. Yeah....this made me chuckle in a bad pessimistic sort of way...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Really need to spend some time with the book before deciding. I think I might going the storm eagle rout for the airpower. Twin LC and MM for poping armor, and the vengence to clean up squishies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saga Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Generally, I am starting to agree. The Nephilim is a nice all-around unit, but it definitely struggles with AV 12. That in mind, how would you guys deal with AV 12? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Made mine the Nephlim, just seems more well rounded. Find out monda night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 So I was going to have this struggle as well, deciding which one to build, since I only bought one. Then I look up from my game and I see another flyer sitting on the table. My friends bought me a second one as a "congrats on your new book!" present. It's an old tradition apparently, first time I ever heard of it to be honest, but I'm not complaining :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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